UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #16

[marynnu]

I agree, I really think that if guilty, the parents were the target of sadism, and the babies were the vessels to achieve that.

One of each of the first two pairs of twins survived, but not for want of (allegedly) trying to kill them too. Twins L and M survived but both had alleged attempts on their lives. Two of the triplets died and the parents begged for the surviving child to be transferred.

The triplets were naturally conceived and identical, something which only happens in every 200 million pregnancies. That significance would have been irresistible, if guilty.

I can't remember which babies are brain damaged, I know one is profoundly disabled but can't remember if it's a twin.

I think that was Baby G? Not a twin as far as I remember.

 

[Officer Dibble]

8/17 were multiples, and a further 2 babies had twins that died in the womb.

Maybe, if guilty, multiples were picked because the parents would stay there for the surviving baby, and their grief could be witnessed and enjoyed.

Perhaps the two babies whose twins died in the womb were picked because their birth would have been extra precious.

Collapses and deaths sometimes happened on special dates (Due date home, 100th day since birth).

You could well be right. JMO. MOO

 

[katydid23]

I personally do not think she was moved to days "to see what happened". That's beyond ridiculous, IMO.

Yes, that really bothered me, hearing it put that way, in the past. It was impossible to defend.

 

[Kemug]

8/17 were multiples, and a further 2 babies had twins that died in the womb.

Maybe, if guilty, multiples were picked because the parents would stay there for the surviving baby, and their grief could be witnessed and enjoyed.

Perhaps the two babies whose twins died in the womb were picked because their birth would have been extra precious.

Collapses and deaths sometimes happened on special dates (Due date home, 100th day since birth).

Reading this actually sent chills down my spine. I found myself trying to imagine being inside the mind of a person who thinks and feels like this - the sheer ugliness and malevolence of it. I don't think a person with a mind like this could ever be remorseful or be cured.

 

[Dotta]

Reading this actually sent chills down my spine. I found myself trying to imagine being inside the mind of a person who thinks and feels like this - the sheer ugliness and malevolence of it. I don't think a person with a mind like this could ever be remorseful or be cured.

The problem is - what was the cause of such (alleged) malevolence?

Why would a young, seemingly successful person (allegedly) do such horrific things?
Why??

 

[Marantz4250b]

I personally do not think she was moved to days "to see what happened". That's beyond ridiculous, IMO.

It's exactly what the prosecution said they did, though. It was mentioned many times in here.

 

[katydid23]

The problem is - what was the cause of such (alleged) malevolence?

Why would a young, seemingly successful person (allegedly) do such horrific things?
Why??

Perhaps there is a mental disorder at work, creating a compulsion that is hard to resist?

 

[katydid23]

It's exactly what the prosecution said they did, though. It was mentioned many times in here.

I am not sure it was that simple or cut and dry. We began to question it because it seems from the charges that she continued to work some night shifts throughout the year. She did move to some day shifts but also continued to do some nights still.

I think the prosecution was making the point that she did move to doing more day shifts, and at that time, the collapse began happening during the days as well, not just on night shifts.

Also, we learned from recent testimony that the management was not believing the suspicions the doctors brought forward. And so they were not accepting their demand that she be taken off the unit. So it doesn't make sense that they took her off nights months earlier. I think that was an incorrect c characterisation of the situation by the prosecution. JMO

 

[marynnu]

It's exactly what the prosecution said they did, though. It was mentioned many times in here.

I think it was misinterpreted by the reporter(s). As someone has said, 2 things happened - the incidents started to happen on days when she did those shifts, and she was moved to days just before she was taken off clinical duties altogether. I think the reports have mixed up the two.
Whatever you think of hospital management, there is no way someone would do this as some kind of experiment.

 

[Dotta]

Perhaps there is a mental disorder at work, creating a compulsion that is hard to resist?

So
How could she manage when easy victims were (allegedly) denied?
When on these "clerical duties"?

Did the compulsions go away?

If the reason was to be in the centre of attention - didn't she complain in texts about being "hidden away", "put into corner", "lie low"?
She was "fuming"!

JMO

 

[marynnu]

Hands up who would have liked to be a fly on the wall during the review meeting on 1st Sept.

 

[katydid23]

So
How could she manage when easy victims were (allegedly) denied?
When on these "clerical duties"?

Did the compulsions go away?

If the reason was to be in the centre of attention - didn't she complain in texts about being "hidden away", "put into corner", "lie low"?
She was "fuming"!

JMO

Think of a serial rapist or someone like that. They get a strong urge that they may feel overwhelmed by. But that is not always something that happens every day. They may go weeks or months being able to overcome the strong temptation.

But when they have that compulsion, that overriding desire, then they look for an opportunity. A lot of rapists are 'opportunity' driven.

When she was put on clerical duties , if guilty, her opportunities dried up for that span of time. She may have told herself she could move away and get a job somewhere else eventually as a way to be OK about waiting.

The thing is, the way Factitious Disorder works, is the subject wants attention but also wants to be a martyr and a victim.
So being put in a corner, hidden away may have been feeding some of that compulsion anyway. JMO

 

[JosieJo]

She wasn't on days long enough to see "what happened"

 

[Kemug]

The problem is - what was the cause of such (alleged) malevolence?

Why would a young, seemingly successful person (allegedly) do such horrific things?
Why??

Yes indeed, why? I suppose the choices are: being born with something wrong in their brain, an acquired brain injury, a past traumatic event in their life, a perceived grudge, or a perceived revenge for something. If it is any of these, you would have to think that the subject's family may have some idea about it.

 

[Marantz4250b]

The problem is - what was the cause of such (alleged) malevolence?

Why would a young, seemingly successful person (allegedly) do such horrific things?
Why??

I agree. If she's guilty then I'm completely dumbfounded as to what drove her; she was young, pretty, sociable, hard working, clearly careful with money and sensible and had a presumably eligible young doctor totally besotted with her.

It's a complete mystery to me - all if guilty, obvs!

Edit; I said "young" doctor. He may not have been and I suspect he was actually quite a bit older.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I think it was misinterpreted by the reporter(s). As someone has said, 2 things happened - the incidents started to happen on days when she did those shifts, and she was moved to days just before she was taken off clinical duties altogether. I think the reports have mixed up the two.
Whatever you think of hospital management, there is no way someone would do this as some kind of experiment.

That's a MASSIVE misinterpretation though! It's so glaringly obvious that it couldn't possibly have gone unnoticed or uncorrected. The reports specifically said that she was moved specifically to see if the trail of destruction followed her. We discussed it at length and i know that I brought the subject up multiple times.

It was reported as a verbatim record of what was said in court so we have to accept it as fact.

 

[ColourPurple]

8/17 were multiples, and a further 2 babies had twins that died in the womb.

Maybe, if guilty, multiples were picked because the parents would stay there for the surviving baby, and their grief could be witnessed and enjoyed.

Perhaps the two babies whose twins died in the womb were picked because their birth would have been extra precious.

Collapses and deaths sometimes happened on special dates (Due date home, 100th day since birth).

If guilty, I don't think the mutiples were necessarily picked because the parents would still be there for her to enjoy their reaction, as she targeted twins L and M at the same time. So if both alleged murder attempts had been "successful" that day, both would have died the same day, and if L's insulin poisoning had been "successful" during the following shift she wouldn't have been there to see the parent's reaction to L at all.

If guilty, although I think she probably actually enjoyed inflicitng pain on the babies, I think with most of the cases she was just living out her own medical drama in her head with herself in the starring role, and picking victims that would make the most dramatic and heartbreaking storylines. If a baby died it was tragic, if it was a baby who had been longed for for years,it was arguably even more tragic, if it was on the day they were due to go home or were due to be born tragic+++. Then if twins died, whole new level of tragic storyline! And then triplets? Rare identical triplets at that...well the temptation to be part of that tragic storyline would've been too much to resist! If guilty!

Then, if guilty, I think a couple of babies were chosen to deflect attention away from her. And although, if guilty, Baby D may have been chosen for the shock storyline of a fullterm baby suddenly, dying, I actually think , Baby D (the only full term baby) may have been targeted out of pure spite, after her parents told LL to leave them alone and give them some privacy, when they felt she was hovering around.

All IMO , if guilty.

 

[marynnu]

That's a MASSIVE misinterpretation though! It's so glaringly obvious that it couldn't possibly have gone unnoticed or uncorrected. The reports specifically said that she was moved specifically to see if the trail of destruction followed her. We discussed it at length and i know that I brought the subject up multiple times.

It was reported as a verbatim record of what was said in court so we have to accept it as fact.

I just don't see it. Who exactly would have decided to do something so outrageous, in theory putting babies' lives at risk? Having said that, I can't find what was reported exactly, other than this: 'When Letby was moved to the day shifts, the rate of collapses "shifted to the day shift pattern".'. Do you have something more detailed?

 

[ColourPurple]

That's a MASSIVE misinterpretation though! It's so glaringly obvious that it couldn't possibly have gone unnoticed or uncorrected. The reports specifically said that she was moved specifically to see if the trail of destruction followed her. We discussed it at length and i know that I brought the subject up multiple times.

It was reported as a verbatim record of what was said in court so we have to accept it as fact.

I think either Johnson slipped up, or the reporters did in their quote by writing " she was moved" instead of "she moved" . Both versions have been reported. The Daily Mail even includes both in one article here lol:

During the time Letby worked on the night shift, there was a rise in babies dying or falling seriously ill, Manchester Crown Court was told, and then when she moved to the day shift there were more 'inexplicable collapses and deaths'...

'Many of the events in this case occurred on the night shifts,' said Mr Johnson. 'Although when Lucy Letby was moved on to day shifts towards the end of this period the collapses and deaths moved to the day shifts'.

Trial of Lucy Letby, 32, will start today

Lucy Letby, 32, is alleged to have murdered seven babies and tried to kill 10 more at the Countess of Chester Hospital between June 2015 and 2016, a court heard today

www.dailymail.co.uk

And as this was reported too it muddied the waters even more:

Nick Johnson KC, prosecuting, told the jury that three months after the death of Baby K, in April 2016, Letby had been moved to day shifts “because the consultants were concerned about the correlation between her presence and unexpected deaths and life-threatening episodes on the night shifts

Doctor interrupted nurse Lucy Letby’s attempt to kill newborn baby, court told

Consultant had started to link Letby to unexplained deaths and rushed to help infant, jury hears

www.theguardian.com

Either way, they've clarified now that the unexpected collapses moved from night shifts to day shifts when LL changed from night shifts to day shifts, and that in June 2016 the hospital moved her to day shifts!

 

[marynnu]

I think either Johnson slipped up, or the reporters did in their quote by writing " she was moved" instead of "she moved" . Both versions have been reported. The Daily Mail even includes both in one article here lol:

During the time Letby worked on the night shift, there was a rise in babies dying or falling seriously ill, Manchester Crown Court was told, and then when she moved to the day shift there were more 'inexplicable collapses and deaths'...

'Many of the events in this case occurred on the night shifts,' said Mr Johnson. 'Although when Lucy Letby was moved on to day shifts towards the end of this period the collapses and deaths moved to the day shifts'.

And as this was reported too it muddied the waters even more:

Nick Johnson KC, prosecuting, told the jury that three months after the death of Baby K, in April 2016, Letby had been moved to day shifts “because the consultants were concerned about the correlation between her presence and unexpected deaths and life-threatening episodes on the night shifts

Doctor interrupted nurse Lucy Letby’s attempt to kill newborn baby, court told

Consultant had started to link Letby to unexplained deaths and rushed to help infant, jury hears

www.theguardian.com

Either way, they've clarified now that the unexpected collapses moved from night shifts to day shifts when LL chnged from night shifts to day shifts, and that in June 2016 the hospital moved her to day shifts!

Thank you! I think people have taken LL moving - or even being moved - to day shifts to mean this was a plan by management to see what happened, rather than just part of her rota!