UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #16

[katydid23]

That's a MASSIVE misinterpretation though! It's so glaringly obvious that it couldn't possibly have gone unnoticed or uncorrected. The reports specifically said that she was moved specifically to see if the trail of destruction followed her. We discussed it at length and i know that I brought the subject up multiple times.

It was reported as a verbatim record of what was said in court so we have to accept it as fact.

I just don't see it. Who exactly would have decided to do something so outrageous, in theory putting babies' lives at risk? Having said that, I can't find what was reported exactly, other than this: 'When Letby was moved to the day shifts, the rate of collapses "shifted to the day shift pattern".'. Do you have something more detailed?

I'm going to do a little research and see what shifts she was on during the 22 charges. That should tell us if there really was a shift change or not.

 

[marynnu]

I'm going to do a little research and see what shifts she was on during the 22 charges. That should tell us if there really was a shift change or not.

OK! But a shift change is not significant in itself. The issue is the strange idea that someone thought this would be a good idea to see if the incidents followed her. I mean, really?

 

[ColourPurple]

Thank you! I think people have taken LL moving - or even being moved - to day shifts to mean this was a plan by man to see where th ecnfusion aroseagement to see what happened, rather than just part of her rota!

Yup, it's easy to see why the confusion arose but even the "she was moved onto day shifts" could just mean as part of her rota. The only reference to it being "because the consultants were concerned about the correlation between her presence and unexpected deaths and life-threatening episodes on the night shifts" is related to June 2016. So yeah they did move her onto days because of the correlation, but not till 27 June 2016 and we know that she was then taken of nursing duties completely, shortly after.

But hey, it's all been clarified now so hopefully we can move on lol

 

[Sweeper2000]

tbh I think there may have been an assumption that the worries associated with her being on shift were a profound and pronounced thing. We all thought after the first few cases the place was buzzing with it, doesn’t quite seem that way to me. It seems the worries about ll were an undercurrent, perhaps whispered and contained rather than shouted and widespread. steadily Growing with every unexplained incident but yet not becoming an active component until baby P. With dr Brearey and crew finally drawing a line. Took a year to manifest seemingly. Maybe that long to look at the cases and think “there is no obvious medical cause here so it must be someone“. apparently management were not concerned even after that year as well.

 

[Tortoise]

Wed 6th April – LL dayshift

Thu 7th April – LL dayshift

Fri 8th April – LL dayshift

LL messages her mother: "Think Im going to do tomorrow [Saturday, April 9] as an extra but go in a bit later."

9pm –
Sophie Ellis to LL: "How's the house pal? Xx"
LL: "Hey, it feels a bit weird having a whole house but it's good thanks, although stuff everywhere as moved in properly on Tue and been at work Wed, Thurs and today...", followed by a monkey emoji with its hands over its eyes.
SE: "it'll feel more homely once you've sorted everything out." She also asks about how busy the unit is.
LL: "Unit is busy, no-one particularly unwell just volume and few people off sick. I prefer 4 days to 4 nights. We've got nice mix of babies at the mo really. Shift goes quick anyway!'



Sat 9th April – LL (extra) dayshift

Twins L & M – alleged attempted murder



Sun 10th April

Morning -
LL receives a message from Yvonne Farmer asking if she wanted to do more overtime shifts on Sunday night, Monday day or Monday night, appreciating she may be tired, with LL responding: "Sorry but need some days off now." She adds she could be on call for nights, and would be free for Thursday day/night shifts.

(Re. nightshifts ahead Fri 15th to Sun 17th April) -

JJ-K: Hi how are you? You enjoying your new home?
LL: Hey I’m okay thanks. Bit knackered after 4 hard days at work though. House is good. Unpacking. How’s you?
JJ-K: Yeah, heard you had done an extra. Not surprised you’re knackered. Okay thanks, feeling a lot happier.
LL: Not nice shifts. Oh that’s good to hear x Nights Fri Sat Sun, my last for ages. Yvonne asked if I could do tonight, tomorrow day or tomorrow night but need a day off lol x
JJ-K: yeah, noticed you haven’t got many nights. Won’t see you as I’m mainly nights. Yeah you need a break, it’s too much. Did come to see you Thursday morning but you were slightly busy x. We never see each other if we do work together as always mad shifts".



Thu 2nd June - LL nightshift

Baby N alleged attempted murder

Fri 3rd June -

LL messages colleague: 'been busy” ...adding what had happened to a number of babies during the night shift, and what staff on duty had been doing. “Glad to be off, survived my nights tho ”



Tue 7th June to Tue 14th June – LL six dayshifts in eight days

Tue 14th June -

Doctor A: Am I right in thinking you’ll have done six long-days in the last eight? No wonder you’re tired.
LL: Yep, six in eight.

Wed 15th June - LL dayshift

Baby N alleged attempted murder x 2

16th to 22nd June - LL Ibiza

LL responds to a Whatsapp from JJ-K that she is working Thursday, Friday and Saturday, on her return from holiday.
LL: "Yep probably be back in with a bang lol"

the doctor asks LL if she has any choice where she is working.
LL: "No, not with this new handover. Shift leader of night shift allocates for the day shift and vice versa.

Thu 23rd June - LL dayshift - baby O alleged murder
Fri 24th June - LL dayshift - baby P alleged murder
Sat 25th June - LL dayshift - baby Q alleged attempted murder

 

[katydid23]

Count 1 - Charged with murder of Baby A on June 8, 2015

NIGHT SHIFT=baby stable at handover @ 8pm/ @ 8:20 pm LL called doctor for resus/died @ 9 pm



Count 2 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby B between the June 8, 2015 and June 11, 2015 [twin to BabyA]

NIGHT SHIFT=12:16 am LL set up an IV line—12:30 alarm sounded/not breathing/Resus



Count 3 - Charged with murder of Baby C on June 14, 2015

NIGHT SHIFT=baby died @ 6 am—LL was alone w/him when alarm sounded



Count 4 - Charged with murder of Baby D on June 22, 2015

NIGHT SHIFT=collapsed 3x-each time LL was present just prior to collapse



Count 5 - Charged with murder of Baby E on August 4, 2015

NIGHT SHIFT=@9pm mum interrupted an attack on baby E, but mum didn’t know it at the time/died @1:40 am




Count 6 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby F on August 5, 2015/twin of baby E

NIGHT SHIFT=@12:25 am LL signed for TPN bag/hypoglycaemia "persisted despite five injections of 10% dextrose.




Count 7 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby G on September 7, 2015

NIGHT SHIFT=At 2.15am Child G had vomited violently and suffered a collapse.




Count 8/9 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby G on September 21, 2015

DAY SHIFT=A team of nurses came on the day shift that day, Lucy Letby being among them. Letby was Child G's designated nurse that day.



Count 10 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby H on September 26, 2015

NIGHT SHIFT=Letby was on duty for both those night shifts, and was the designated nurse for Child H.



Count 11 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby H on September 27, 2015

NIGHT SHIFT=Letby was on duty for both those night shifts, and was the designated nurse for Child H.



Count 12 - Charged with murder of Baby I on October 23, 2015

DAY SHIFT=On first attempt—Letby was on a 'long day' shift (8am-8pm) on September 30. She was Child I's designated nurse in room three.

NIGHT SHIFTS=on 2nd, 3rd and 4th attempts /Oct 13th, and 23rd




Count 13 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby J on November 27, 2015


NIGHT SHIFT=@3 am LL records notes/@4:40 baby is pale and mottled /desaturated




Count 14 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby K on February 17, 2015

NIGHT SHIFT= @3:50 am LL with child/as child deteriorated




Count 15 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby L on April 9, 2016

DAY SHIFT= Letby came on duty that day at 7.30am.In the hours that followed, Child L's glucose levels fell abnormally low.





Count 16 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby M on April 9, 2016

DAY SHIFT= @3.45pm, he received intravenous antibiotics/from Letby /@4 pm alarm





Count 17 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby N on June 3, 2016

NIGHT SHIFT= night of June 2, Letby was w/baby-oxygen saturation levels fell from 99% to 40%.


Count 18 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby N on June 15, 2016

DAY SHIFT=June 14th and 15th




Count 19 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby N on June 15, 2016

DAY SHIFT=incidents @ 10am and 1 pm, LL present for both





Count 20 - Charged with murder of Baby O on June 23, 2016

DAY SHIFT=2:40pm—Letby called for help, having been alone with Child O in room 2 at the time.





Count 21 - Charged with murder of Baby P on June 24, 2016

DAY SHIFT=P had 3 collapses, final collapse came at 3.14pm/LL was designated nurse





Count 22 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby Q on June 25, 2016

DAY SHIFT=@9 am LL was with Q/@ 9:06 alarm went off

 

[katydid23]

If you look at above post, the night and day shifts seemed somewhat erratic. It wasn't cut and dry.

 

[marynnu]

If you look at above post, the night and day shifts seemed somewhat erratic. It wasn't cut and dry.

How do you mean?

 

[Dotta]

Count 1 - Charged with murder of Baby A on June 8, 2015

NIGHT SHIFT=baby stable at handover @ 8pm/ @ 8:20 pm LL called doctor for resus/died @ 9 pm



Count 2 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby B between the June 8, 2015 and June 11, 2015 [twin to BabyA]

NIGHT SHIFT=12:16 am LL set up an IV line—12:30 alarm sounded/not breathing/Resus



Count 3 - Charged with murder of Baby C on June 14, 2015

NIGHT SHIFT=baby died @ 6 am—LL was alone w/him when alarm sounded



Count 4 - Charged with murder of Baby D on June 22, 2015

NIGHT SHIFT=collapsed 3x-each time LL was present just prior to collapse



Count 5 - Charged with murder of Baby E on August 4, 2015

NIGHT SHIFT=@9pm mum interrupted an attack on baby E, but mum didn’t know it at the time/died @1:40 am




Count 6 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby F on August 5, 2015/twin of baby E

NIGHT SHIFT=@12:25 am LL signed for TPN bag/hypoglycaemia "persisted despite five injections of 10% dextrose.




Count 7 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby G on September 7, 2015

NIGHT SHIFT=At 2.15am Child G had vomited violently and suffered a collapse.




Count 8/9 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby G on September 21, 2015

DAY SHIFT=A team of nurses came on the day shift that day, Lucy Letby being among them. Letby was Child G's designated nurse that day.



Count 10 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby H on September 26, 2015

NIGHT SHIFT=Letby was on duty for both those night shifts, and was the designated nurse for Child H.



Count 11 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby H on September 27, 2015

NIGHT SHIFT=Letby was on duty for both those night shifts, and was the designated nurse for Child H.



Count 12 - Charged with murder of Baby I on October 23, 2015

DAY SHIFT=On first attempt—Letby was on a 'long day' shift (8am-8pm) on September 30. She was Child I's designated nurse in room three.

NIGHT SHIFTS=on 2nd, 3rd and 4th attempts /Oct 13th, and 23rd




Count 13 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby J on November 27, 2015


NIGHT SHIFT=@3 am LL records notes/@4:40 baby is pale and mottled /desaturated




Count 14 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby K on February 17, 2015

NIGHT SHIFT= @3:50 am LL with child/as child deteriorated




Count 15 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby L on April 9, 2016

DAY SHIFT= Letby came on duty that day at 7.30am.In the hours that followed, Child L's glucose levels fell abnormally low.





Count 16 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby M on April 9, 2016

DAY SHIFT= @3.45pm, he received intravenous antibiotics/from Letby /@4 pm alarm





Count 17 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby N on June 3, 2016

NIGHT SHIFT= night of June 2, Letby was w/baby-oxygen saturation levels fell from 99% to 40%.


Count 18 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby N on June 15, 2016

DAY SHIFT=June 14th and 15th




Count 19 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby N on June 15, 2016

DAY SHIFT=incidents @ 10am and 1 pm, LL present for both





Count 20 - Charged with murder of Baby O on June 23, 2016

DAY SHIFT=2:40pm—Letby called for help, having been alone with Child O in room 2 at the time.





Count 21 - Charged with murder of Baby P on June 24, 2016

DAY SHIFT=P had 3 collapses, final collapse came at 3.14pm/LL was designated nurse





Count 22 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby Q on June 25, 2016

DAY SHIFT=@9 am LL was with Q/@ 9:06 alarm went off

Month June - the most "accident prone"?
2015/2016
10 collapses!

 

[Dotta]

Happy Easter

Health, Happiness and Prosperity to you all!

 

[Parker Knoll]

And you Dotta !

 

[JosieJo]

Has it actually been quoted in court that they moved her to see what happened?

 

[Dcflag]

I know it’s not important in the grand scheme of things but I so wish we had more access to general information/data.

I remember there being a stat where LL is the only staff member present for all of these incidents with the next highest being in attendance for 7 incidents.

I’d love to see all of the deaths and collapses in this time period and the staff present/designated nurse etc. it would be fascinating to see if there’s any correlation in a similar way of other staff members (for example if there’s any staff members present at a really High number of incidents if we widen the pool to every collapse and/or death in the time period and not just the ones LL had been charged with) I feel like it would give a really beneficial insight to just how significant (or not?) this is in terms of her presence.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I think that conclusion was reached because it was assumed that the events were considered a big thing on the unit rather than the quiet background noise it seems to have been and not thought that management would be backing ll.

 

[Passiton]

Yes, I thought similar to you when trying to think of more innocent explanations for that comment. If she felt that she may be suspected of negligence and similar, then it would make sense for her to say "they've got nothing or minimal on me".
It depends on personality - I know some on here have said that they'd be beside themselves and would be proclaiming innocence in their panic, but if someone is quite defiant then they might have a 'they'll look silly/I'll prove them wrong' as their first reaction.

Obviously speculation on my part and I can completely see the perspective where it seems incriminating as that's where my thoughts first went.

When I was around LL’s age, I went through a disciplinary at work (completely unrelated field and v low stakes in the grand scheme of things) and tbh I think I had a very similar reaction. I was petulant, self-righteous and furious with the whole process and didn’t make it easy on anybody (least of all myself tbh).

I was pretty unwell at the time and had a few MH issues, and although I wasn’t being mistreated at the time and the disciplinary was probably fair enough, it really felt like I was being targeted. I lacked capacity to see the bigger picture.

So yes, I agree, I don’t read ‘minimal evidence’ as admission of guilt. With the air embolism thing, if it was in the mind of the doctors/consultants as a possible cause (leading to Dr J to do his research), then I think it’s reasonable that it might cross LL’s mind? Especially if she felt she was about to be landed with the blame. She also said about bugs/viruses and some other more specific hypotheses right? I imagine these are the kind of discussions I’d also be having with trusted colleagues if I was in her shoes. But also agree it’s difficult to make head nor tail of what the AE comments are based on current reporting.

All IMO.

 

[marynnu]

Has it actually been quoted in court that they moved her to see what happened?

Not that I know of.

 

[ColourPurple]

..I remember there being a stat where LL is the only staff member present for all of these incidents with the next highest being in attendance for 7 incidents.

I’d love to see all of the deaths and collapses in this time period and the staff present/designated nurse etc. it would be fascinating to see if there’s any correlation in a similar way of other staff members (for example if there’s any staff members present at a really High number of incidents if we widen the pool to every collapse and/or death in the time period and not just the ones LL had been charged with) I feel like it would give a really beneficial insight to just how significant (or not?) this is in terms of her presence.

Although we'd heard similar in the prosecution's opening speech, Dr Gibbs said in court recently that LL had been present at ALL of the unexpected, inexplicable collapses in that one year time period. So that seems to confirm there were no other collapses that fell into that category in that time period, that LL was not present at.

As a precaution following Child O's death, Dr Gibbs instructed that Child P, who was at that time a "well baby", should be put on antibiotics and sent for X-rays and blood tests.

The test results were within the normal range and Dr Gibbs said he was therefore "extremely concerned" to learn of Child P's death the following day, saying he "would not have expected that at all".

At this time, Dr Gibbs said he had "become increasingly concerned at the accumulating number of unusual, unexpected and inexplicable collapses that had been happening on the neonatal unit and that Staff Nurse Letby had been involved in all of them".

He told the jury that the deaths of the brothers was a "tipping point for realising something very abnormal and wrong was happening on the neonatal unit".

He added: "This was happening again and again over that year. That cannot just be coincidence or bad luck, there had to be a cause.

Lucy Letby: Doctors resisted nurse's frontline return, trial hears - BBC News

Senior doctors requested the removal of nurse Lucy Letby from their neonatal unit, her trial hears.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Anxala]

I know it’s not important in the grand scheme of things but I so wish we had more access to general information/data.

I remember there being a stat where LL is the only staff member present for all of these incidents with the next highest being in attendance for 7 incidents.

I’d love to see all of the deaths and collapses in this time period and the staff present/designated nurse etc. it would be fascinating to see if there’s any correlation in a similar way of other staff members (for example if there’s any staff members present at a really High number of incidents if we widen the pool to every collapse and/or death in the time period and not just the ones LL had been charged with) I feel like it would give a really beneficial insight to just how significant (or not?) this is in terms of her presence.

^ I'd love that too. I want to know everything about this 'elimination' process!

I wonder will it form part of the defence?

 

[ColourPurple]

Has it actually been quoted in court that they moved her to see what happened?

No. It was an asssumption made because of the ambiguous reporting surrounding her "moving to" day shifts or "being moved" to day shifts. Along with the report about her being made to move to day shifts in June 2016, becuase of the correlation, shortly before she was moved to clerical.

 

[Sweeper2000]

^ I'd love that too. I want to know everything about this 'elimination' process!

I wonder will it form part of the defence?

Mr Myers did mention in opening that the prosecution had been selective with what it included in that table. It does not show other collapses or deaths, only the inexplicable ones.