UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #16

[Marantz4250b]

True, and I suppose she might have just have found this out, though why she would then search for the parents beats me.

I can only try to put myself in her position if I were innocent - or guilty, for that matter. If you know that a potential police investigation is underway, and I'm sure she did, I'd be trying to find out everything I could. There are very few ways by which you can find out any information at all if the police are investigating and, speaking personally, being deprived of information on important matters stresses me immensely. FB searching anyone you possibly could is certainly what I'd be doing!

 

[marynnu]

I can only try to put myself in her position if I were innocent - or guilty, for that matter. If you know that a potential police investigation is underway, and I'm sure she did, I'd be trying to find out everything I could. There are very few ways by which you can find out any information at all if the police are investigating and, speaking personally, being deprived of information on important matters stresses me immensely. FB searching anyone you possibly could is certainly what I'd be doing!

Would you though? I can't think if a single thing that you could learn. And IMO anyone, however stressed, should realise that this looks very strange. But then I've never been in this situation!

 

[Becci]

Would you though? I can't think if a single thing that you could learn. And IMO anyone, however stressed, should realise that this looks very strange. But then I've never been in this situation!

Could she have just been looking to see what they looked like to try n jog her memory on the incident?
Also when's the coronation loll i'll help hold the shed to

 

[Dotta]

Also when's the coronation loll i'll help hold the shed to

Life is too short to hide in a shed

But then, I come from a country where people never miss occasion to celebrate
To Life!!!
Cheers!!!

 

[Becci]

Life is too short to hide in a shed

But then, I come from a country where people never miss occasion to celebrate
To Life!!!
Cheers!!!

Just googled it so 3x bank holidays in May. Happy 4 school kids i guess haha

 

[Dotta]

Just googled it so 3x bank holidays in May. Happy 4 school kids i guess haha

I predict
Delays delays.

 

[Sweeper2000]

How do we know she wasn't talking about the collapses as well?


This article makes it sound more like a process of confession, IMO:

The first step in releasing self-blame is recognizing responsibility. In other words, who owns what and where does our personal ownership lie? If we have done our due diligence, if we have entered into the moment honestly and with authenticity, then, should things go awry, it will be clear how much of that is ours to own.

The next step is taking on that responsibility. Taking responsibility is not the same as taking the blame. The idea of blame suggests there is some implied wrongness afoot—an abject negative. Taking responsibility means acknowledging our part in what is wrong. That wrong is not an abject negative, but a circumstance we have created by virtue of our action or inaction.


Is that^^^ what her notes were about? Taking accountability and acknowledging her part in what went wrong?

problems that one doesn’t know about is not something one has to take responsibility for. Obviously it takes more than being blamed for something to be responsible for it. I don’t know how you construed that article as self blame making an individual responsible for something. The entire article revolves around taking responsibility for what you did do and not being blamed for things you didn’t. the gyst of it is that you stop self blaming for things you didn’t do by taking responsibility for what you did do. In essence taking responsibility removes the doubt that causes the self blame. Self blaming is normally part of an inquisitive process that makes one look at something to find out if indeed one is responsible for its occurrence. Unfortunately as an example if a pregnant woman isn’t able to bring the baby into the world that so often involves blaming themselves for something well outside of their zone of control. It’s just realising what is within ones zone of control that makes people stop self blaming. People blame themselves when they don’t know the actual reason for the events under question to have happened. Not everyone who blames themselves is responsible for the event ie a pregnant woman.

as I said the note mentions the word “killed” but it does not say harmed. There is no reference to the collapses, suggesting but not proof of her not knowing the collapses are held under the same suspicion as the deaths.

 

[katydid23]

Court is not back until tomorrow:



Dan O'Donoghue
Apr 6
Wrap of today’s evidence. Back April 17.

 

[katydid23]

problems that one doesn’t know about is not something one has to take responsibility for. Obviously it takes more than being blamed for something to be responsible for it. I don’t know how you construed that article as self blame making an individual responsible for something. The entire article revolves around taking responsibility for what you did do and not being blamed for things you didn’t.

That article literally said it was about taking responsibility for one's alleged actions. And in the post-it notes, she literally does so.

“I am evil I did this”
“I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them"
‘I am a horrible evil person’

the gyst of it is that you stop self blaming for things you didn’t do by taking responsibility for what you did do. In essence taking responsibility removes the doubt that causes the self blame.

So are you saying the above posts are confessions then, if she is taking responsibility for what she allegedly did?

Self blaming is normally part of an inquisitive process that makes one look at something to find out if indeed one is responsible for its occurrence. Unfortunately as an example if a pregnant woman isn’t able to bring the baby into the world that so often involves blaming themselves for something well outside of their zone of control. It’s just realising what is within ones zone of control that makes people stop self blaming. People blame themselves when they don’t know the actual reason for the events under question to have happened. Not everyone who blames themselves is responsible for the event ie a pregnant woman.

So you are saying she blamed herself but she didn't really do anything wrong---it is just self blame?

Why would she say she 'did it on purpose' if she didn't really do anything wrong? To me, it sounds more like a confession. JMO

as I said the note mentions the word “killed” but it does not say harmed. There is no reference to the collapses, suggesting but not proof of her not knowing the collapses are held under the same suspicion as the deaths.

I am pretty sure she knew that the insulin cases, at the very least, were under investigation too. She even agreed with the investigators that they probably were not accidental.

 

[Anxala]

I can only try to put myself in her position if I were innocent - or guilty, for that matter. If you know that a potential police investigation is underway, and I'm sure she did, I'd be trying to find out everything I could. There are very few ways by which you can find out any information at all if the police are investigating and, speaking personally, being deprived of information on important matters stresses me immensely. FB searching anyone you possibly could is certainly what I'd be doing!

I think I'd be the same. Innocent or guilty, I'd be in such a panic, desperate for more info. I wonder if she could have been searching to see whether any of the parents had ever expressed concerns about the care their babies received while in the unit? Once she knew that the police were involved, she must have wondered who else, apart from the hospital, was in the know about the investigation.

On a separate note, I wonder when the parents of the babies were notified that an investigation was underway into the deaths of their children...

 

[MajorHoople]

I'm just a casual observer and don't know all the particulars of these accusations , so pay no attention to me.

But it does seem that if the prosecution had strong evidence of Letby's guilt this would be an "open and shut" case and the trial would be concluded in less than a week.

I've served on jury duty before and I felt good about the decisions we reached, but if I were on this jury I'd be pretty well fed up with the whole thing by now.

 

[Supernovae]

But it does seem that if the prosecution had strong evidence of Letby's guilt this would be an "open and shut" case and the trial would be concluded in less than a week.

It doesn't work that way, particularly with so many charges.

 

[Supernovae]

In fact I'm struggling to think of any murder trial that was that short.

 

[Anxala]

I'm just a casual observer and don't know all the particulars of these accusations , so pay no attention to me.

But it does seem that if the prosecution had strong evidence of Letby's guilt this would be an "open and shut" case and the trial would be concluded in less than a week.

I've served on jury duty before and I felt good about the decisions we reached, but if I were on this jury I'd be pretty well fed up with the whole thing by now.

^ Not really.

It's an exceptional case on so many levels, not least the seriousness of the charges combined with no witnessess and ongoing ambiguity surrounding the causes of death of the babies concerned.

As frustrating as it is, it has to be as painstakingly drawn out as it is if justice is to be properly served.

 

[Dotta]

I'm just a casual observer and don't know all the particulars of these accusations , so pay no attention to me.

But it does seem that if the prosecution had strong evidence of Letby's guilt this would be an "open and shut" case and the trial would be concluded in less than a week.

I've served on jury duty before and I felt good about the decisions we reached, but if I were on this jury I'd be pretty well fed up with the whole thing by now.

There are 22 charges.
Each must be analyzed.

Each Baby's case deserves to be carefully examined.
The same concerns LL.

Nothing good comes out of a rush.

JMO

 

[esther43]

Yes.
It is reassuring that there are still people who care deeply about patients and are brave enough to fight for them - even against some colleagues.

And are ready to appear in Court to fight for Justice for victims.

I feel Respect for them!

JMO

Indeed. A long road for the professionals involved in this case.

Looking forward to hearing the rest of the prosecution case. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some more interesting messages exchanged from around the time when LL was moved to admin duties to the first arrest. I want to know what she was doing and saying after that first arrest too.

The only thing I feel that we are missing so far is her general internet searches. If, at any time after her move to admin she was searching up things linked to air embolism or what evidence could be found at post mortem for example. I find it difficult to believe that, if guilty, LL didn’t perform any searches on her mobile for anything related to what she had allegedly done.

Even if innocent I would have expected her to have been researching what could possibly have happened to the babies, especially when, as we now know she was looking up the babies’ family members on Facebook. So these cases were clearly on her mind. Obviously giving her the benefit of the doubt, wouldn’t it fit to see some internet searches on symptoms, sudden collapses for example? As she was talking to colleagues and clearly seemed very work orientated, it would make sense that she’d searched other things aswell as the families.

We will see what emerges this week, and of course when the defense can finally present their case, I am very interested to see what evidence they have.
All MOO

I have also been surprised by the lack of medical searches. It is entirely possible though that she had a back phone and it just hasn't been discovered. The other possibility is that the learning occured purely through experimentation.

 

[esther43]

^ Not really.

It's an exceptional case on so many levels, not least the seriousness of the charges combined with no witnessess and ongoing ambiguity surrounding the causes of death of the babies concerned.

As frustrating as it is, it has to be as painstakingly drawn out as it is if justice is to be properly served.

I agree it is painfully drawn out but each and every baby and family needs justice.

 

[esther43]

But wasn't she accused of attempted murder of Baby K? So she was suspected of doing some kind of harm at some point?

Yes but the point is that most of the searches she carried out were around the time of babies deaths when LL was on the unit with the parents.
The search for child K came later, after she had been seconded to admin but before LLs arrest.
The reason it's strange is because child K didn't die in her care, child K died elsewhere.
Initially there was a murder charge for child K but it was dropped. There was also an attempted murder charge that must have occured before the baby was transferred out of the hospital. A likely explanation was that there were extenuating circumstances that led to the eventual death of child K or not enough evidence to prove that the initial alleged attack resulted in death.
The curious thing is why did LL look up the parents of child K at that point in time, she did not know what she had been accused of or what children were alleged to have been harmed. Jmo

 

[esther43]

Bank holidays on May 1st, 8th and 29th, so only one more than normal.
By festivities, do you mean hangovers?

Long live the gin!

 

[katydid23]

Yes but the point is that most of the searches she carried out were around the time of babies deaths when LL was on the unit with the parents.
The search for child K came later, after she had been seconded to admin but before LLs arrest.
The reason it's strange is because child K didn't die in her care, child K died elsewhere.
Initially there was a murder charge for child K but it was dropped. There was also an attempted murder charge that must have occured before the baby was transferred out of the hospital. A likely explanation was that there were extenuating circumstances that led to the eventual death of child K or not enough evidence to prove that the initial alleged attack resulted in death.
The curious thing is why did LL look up the parents of child K at that point in time, she did not know what she had been accused of or what children were alleged to have been harmed. Jmo

Oh, ok, got it. It is interesting that she looked up that family when she was already off the floor. [and not been charged yet]

I'd always wondered about that dropped charge. I wonder if maybe there were underlying medical issues that contributed to the death so they decided it better to drop murder charges or it might muddy the waters on the other accusations too ?

I am curious to hear if defense brings out other FB searches she may have made---perhaps some families who left with healthy surviving children?