UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #17

[marynnu]

I think we need more info on what the handover sheets contain. I remember reading during earlier discussions that there didn’t seem to be a consistent way each hospital does the handover sheets, and I recall someone mentioning that their handover sheets only contained the bed number rather than patient name, and it was for all the patients on the ward rather than individual sheets for each patient, so every nurse got a copy of the same thing (no chance of me finding the post now).

I think this is important information to know, whether these sheets were specific to the baby involved, or whether they were a record of who was on the ward and who was designated to each during the shift. Was it a handover sheet “for Baby X” or was it a handover sheet for X date? Because they’re very different things in the context of this trial in my opinion. Having an entire years worth of handover sheets (but no sheets for the years prior) strikes me as evidence gathering, especially when she had vocalised concerns on several occasions about staffing and skills mix. Might a handover sheet be something that could be shared with a union, since there are typically gateways there to share confidential information you otherwise wouldn’t disclose.

Just speculating, as the discovery that she kept every handover sheet across the relevant period does not seem to fit with the idea that these were trophies. Furthermore, if she had some kind of obsessive compulsive robin williams thing going on, it was triggered fairly suddenly, as she appears to have worked this job for many years without hoarding paperwork.

JMO.

I suspect they were specific. This is from the police interview re. Baby B:

'In November 2020, Letby was asked by police about a handover sheet relating to Child B found at her home address in a search.
The sheet showed she had been the designated nurse for two babies in a different room that night.'

 

[Legal]

Chester standard have posted a summary of yesterday's evidence with pictures of her bedroom.

I think most of the information we already knew, although there were a couple of things that I don't remember reading yesterday. One was that it was the Ibiza for Life bag which was found under the bed. This was the one that contained handover sheets for 23/24/25/28 June and her work badge. IMO it must have been deliberately placed there, because she had other bags and suitcases strewn round the bedroom in plain sight.

Also, I don't recall the "killing me softly" phrase.

A search of the garage at the Westbourne Road property on June 10 revealed another handwritten note found in a black bin bag.

Phrases on that note included “killing me softly”, “broken hearted” and “no-one will ever know what happened or why”.

Bergerac was written on the same paper as Tigger and Smudge so possibly another pet?

What police saw inside Lucy Letby's Chester home at time of 2018 arrest

THIS was the scene when crime scene investigators searched Lucy Letby's home in July 2018 at the time of her arrest.

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[katydid23]

I think we need more info on what the handover sheets contain. I remember reading during earlier discussions that there didn’t seem to be a consistent way each hospital does the handover sheets, and I recall someone mentioning that their handover sheets only contained the bed number rather than patient name, and it was for all the patients on the ward rather than individual sheets for each patient, so every nurse got a copy of the same thing (no chance of me finding the post now).

I think this is important information to know, whether these sheets were specific to the baby involved, or whether they were a record of who was on the ward and who was designated to each during the shift. Was it a handover sheet “for Baby X” or was it a handover sheet for X date? Because they’re very different things in the context of this trial in my opinion. Having an entire years worth of handover sheets (but no sheets for the years prior) strikes me as evidence gathering, especially when she had vocalised concerns on several occasions about staffing and skills mix. Might a handover sheet be something that could be shared with a union, since there are typically gateways there to share confidential information you otherwise wouldn’t disclose.

Just speculating, as the discovery that she kept every handover sheet across the relevant period does not seem to fit with the idea that these were trophies. Furthermore, if she had some kind of obsessive compulsive robin williams thing going on, it was triggered fairly suddenly, as she appears to have worked this job for many years without hoarding paperwork.

JMO.

It's confusing, imo, because how would she know to start bringing home these daily handovers before she even knew there was going to be an investigation almost a year later?

I don't believe she could have gotten all of these sheets at the end of that year because they are supposedly routinely shredded at the hospital . So I think she had to be bringing them home each day at the end of her shift. Did she not hand them over to the next nurse?

 

[Tortoise]

I think we need more info on what the handover sheets contain. I remember reading during earlier discussions that there didn’t seem to be a consistent way each hospital does the handover sheets, and I recall someone mentioning that their handover sheets only contained the bed number rather than patient name, and it was for all the patients on the ward rather than individual sheets for each patient, so every nurse got a copy of the same thing (no chance of me finding the post now).

I think this is important information to know, whether these sheets were specific to the baby involved, or whether they were a record of who was on the ward and who was designated to each during the shift. Was it a handover sheet “for Baby X” or was it a handover sheet for X date? Because they’re very different things in the context of this trial in my opinion. Having an entire years worth of handover sheets (but no sheets for the years prior) strikes me as evidence gathering, especially when she had vocalised concerns on several occasions about staffing and skills mix. Might a handover sheet be something that could be shared with a union, since there are typically gateways there to share confidential information you otherwise wouldn’t disclose.

Just speculating, as the discovery that she kept every handover sheet across the relevant period does not seem to fit with the idea that these were trophies. Furthermore, if she had some kind of obsessive compulsive robin williams thing going on, it was triggered fairly suddenly, as she appears to have worked this job for many years without hoarding paperwork.

JMO.

I emailed the producers of the podcast asking them exactly these type of questions, this morning. I hope they can cover it in their episode next week. It's not making sense to me that the trial reports go on about the handover sheets for babies B and Q when she had them for virtually all of the babies in this case in her home, plus about another 200+. I'm wondering if they could have been an aid for planning, to do with babies, their vulnerabilities, or other nurses, but if they were specific to her own babies only that would be a non-starter. I'm surprised that the media hasn't really explained what they are, if they are a big deal to the prosecution but no big deal to the defence. Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised with the coverage of this case being what it is!

 

[WaxLyrical]

It's confusing, imo, because how would she know to start bringing home these daily handovers before she even knew there was going to be an investigation almost a year later?

I don't believe she could have gotten all of these sheets at the end of that year because they are supposedly routinely shredded at the hospital . So I think she had to be bringing them home each day at the end of her shift. Did she not hand them over to the next nurse?

They don’t get handed over to the next nurse, they’re supposed to be thrown in the bin. The next nurses get updated ones.

 

[WaxLyrical]

I suspect they were specific. This is from the police interview re. Baby B:

'In November 2020, Letby was asked by police about a handover sheet relating to Child B found at her home address in a search.
The sheet showed she had been the designated nurse for two babies in a different room that night.'

See, this suggests the opposite to me. The handover sheet showed more than one baby on it and who their designated nurse was. So unlikely to be a sheet for each baby, and could possibly contain all babies and their nurses. JMO.

 

[marynnu]

See, this suggests the opposite to me. The handover sheet showed more than one baby on it and who their designated nurse was. So unlikely to be a sheet for each baby, and could possibly contain all babies and their nurses. JMO.

I do see what you mean. This is when discussion groups can work well, isn't it, pointing out things you missed/hadn't thought of?

 

[Marantz4250b]

See, this suggests the opposite to me. The handover sheet showed more than one baby on it and who their designated nurse was. So unlikely to be a sheet for each baby, and could possibly contain all babies and their nurses. JMO.

I think the handover sheets related to the whole ward/department. All patients names, histories, etc so that every nurse knew the score for each patient and who was allocated to them. I'm sure that each nurse would get an identical copy of the handover sheet.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

One of the big questions I have is whether LL was taking home these documents at the end of a shift, or whether she accumulated them after she was put on clerical duties as part of an effort to get herself reinstated onto the ward/make a complaint/file a claim at the employment tribunal.

Maybe I am expecting far too much of the NHS computer/record-keeping system, but…. Wouldn’t the computer system register each time someone accessed a patient’s file and indeed the login details of the person accessing the file? If neither LL nor the Milky bar kid (or indeed any other members of staff who were sympathetic to LL at the time) accessed (eg) patient records for baby A after June 2016 (excluding, of course, the police and the hospital’s internal investigators), then surely that points to LL, taking the document home at the time of her shift.

Or is the NHS computer system just completely anonymous, this regard and does not track/keep records of who accessed a file?

 

[Sundial]

I think the handover sheets related to the whole ward/department. All patients names, histories, etc so that every nurse knew the score for each patient and who was allocated to them. I'm sure that each nurse would get an identical copy of the handover sheet.

Re the handover sheets; you would have each patient on the ward (at the time) listed on them. They might be initialled or surname only, and it doesn’t matter who is designated to which patient either: every nurse would have a copy of the patients currently admitted/on the ward.

During handovers, there are two ways this can be done (whilst having your own copy/handover sheet with you).
1. All sat in a room together with lead nurse (usually) who would hand over to the next shift.
2. sometimes the nurses will follow round lead nurse (with their handover sheets) and handover at each patients bedside. Putting names and faces to patients if you will.

These sheets are often scribbled on during handover (an example of making notes that haven’t had chance to be typed before new shift change; eg doctor coming to review patient at 9am). Sometimes, during handover the lead nurse may jot notes down on this paper for all patients on the ward. This is just a general way of ensuring the shift runs smoothly, anything is not missed etc.

It doesn’t really matter who the designated nurse is, 99% of the time you would have a handover sheet with all patients on that unit/ward regardless.

Bedside/cot side they don’t generally keep these sheets next to the patient. Observations yes, although some places don’t. But handover sheets are almost always, typically in a nurses pocket to jot notes on next to the patient they are caring for (sometimes on others they are not caring for as per teamwork/break times/cover etc) and use these notes to update patients electronic files before the shift ends and often added as bullet points onto new handover sheets ready for printing.

When the new shift is due to start, these updated sheets are printed off again, ready for handover. Anyone without a handover for the shift can easily just print them off.

There are different ways in different hospitals but the process is very similar.

 

[mummyshark]

'In November 2020, Letby was asked by police about a handover sheet relating to Child B found at her home address in a search.
The sheet showed she had been the designated nurse for two babies in a different room that night.'

What was her response to this?

 

[ColourPurple]

One of the big questions I have is whether LL was taking home these documents at the end of a shift, or whether she accumulated them after she was put on clerical duties as part of an effort to get herself reinstated onto the ward/make a complaint/file a claim at the employment tribunal.

Maybe I am expecting far too much of the NHS computer/record-keeping system, but…. Wouldn’t the computer system register each time someone accessed a patient’s file and indeed the login details of the person accessing the file? If neither LL nor the Milky bar kid (or indeed any other members of staff who were sympathetic to LL at the time) accessed (eg) patient records for baby A after June 2016 (excluding, of course, the police and the hospital’s internal investigators), then surely that points to LL, taking the document home at the time of her shift.

Or is the NHS computer system just completely anonymous, this regard and does not track/keep records of who accessed a file?

From what I can gather, the handover sheets would be something that the nurses would have from handover at the start of their shift, then could use to write things on throughout the shift, but would then be disposed of at the end of the shift. So it's not like they were filed somewhere in the hospital that she could have accessed months later. The only way for LL to have them would be if instead of disposing of them at the end of the shift, she kept them and took them home with her.

 

[Marantz4250b]

From what I can gather, the handover sheets would be something that the nurses would have from handover at the start of their shift, then could use to write things on throughout the shift, but would then be disposed of at the end of the shift. So it's not like they were filed somewhere in the hospital that she could have accessed months later. The only way for LL to have them would be if instead of disposing of them at the end of the shift, she kept them and took them home with her.

Surely they would still remain archived electronically? I can't believe that they get automatically deleted at the end of each shift.

It's plausible that she printed them off while on admin duties if she was collecting info in relation to the grievance she initiated.

 

[DianaWW]

Surely if she had all this paperwork because she was investigating/trying to get herself re-instated/only taken it home after she was moved etc, the defence would say that? They haven’t though as far as I’m aware. Unless it hasn’t been reported. JMO.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Surely if she had all this paperwork because she was investigating/trying to get herself re-instated/only taken it home after she was moved etc, the defence would say that? They haven’t though as far as I’m aware. Unless it hasn’t been reported. JMO.

Perhaps that's what is in her police interviews?

 

[DianaWW]

Perhaps that's what is in her police interviews?

Yes maybe, I hope we get to hear about the reasons she's given, and that she's said more than 'I don't remember'!

 

[marynnu]

What was her response to this?

That she couldn't remember.

 

[Kemug]

The white chair; it looks like a commode (used as a toilet but designed exactly like that with a lid, so you lift the white part of the seat and the toilet is kind of like a small basin). They are also used as perching chairs/stools for disabled/older people.

The trolley with wheels, usually seen in order people’s homes, community care. They are items typically expected to be seen in older community, older wards, occupational therapists. Unless she has had an illness herself (re her hand tremors??) I find it unusual a childrens nurse would have these items.
Moo

May I introduce you all to my big brother - his garage houses 3 walking frames, 3 wheelchairs, a shower seat, several pairs of crutches, and a couple of other things which I can't remember (all used him and his wife on various occasions in the last decade).

 

[ColourPurple]

Surely they would still remain archived electronically? I can't believe that they get automatically deleted at the end of each shift.

It's plausible that she printed them off while on admin duties if she was collecting info in relation to the grievance she initiated.

Any important info the nurses had written on it would/should be written up in the baby's records so why would they need to archive the sheet itself? It'd be like archiving the actual paper towel with the adrenalin doses on, rather than adding the info on the paper towel to the baby's records.

But we've also heard how the handover sheets that were found had "handwritten" observations of babies written on the back (eg real time temperatures of babies etc recorded throughout the day) It'd be obvious to police if the sheets were printed off copies not the actual ones which would have the handwritten comments rather than photocopies of handwritten comments.

 

[Sundial]

Any important info the nurses had written on it would/should be written up in the baby's records so why would they need to archive the sheet itself? It'd be like archiving the actual paper towel with the adrenalin doses on, rather than adding the info on the paper towel to the baby's records.

But we've also heard how the handover sheets that were found had "handwritten" observations of babies written on the back (eg real time temperatures of babies etc recorded throughout the day) It'd be obvious to police if the sheets were printed off copies not the actual ones which would have the handwritten comments rather than photocopies of handwritten comments.

To add; Handovers do get archived in the electronic system. I actually recall a conversation many years ago now with a colleague, I can’t remember what I asked, but they did say something along the lines of “I’ll have to check that with the previous days handovers”.
Handovers are typed by each lead nurse (usually) and then printed several times (to hand out to the new shift, anyone who didn’t get one but needed one (example someone starting shift later/dr appointments etc) just prints them off, but they are still available/archived for some while. (Indefinitely, I don’t know however, but it’s quite likely)
My experience only.