UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #17

[Tortoise]

It's possible to overthink this IMO. 'Injection' implies a bolus delivered directly into a person with a syringe, not something added to an infusion. That's how I would have interpreted this question anyway.

That could be either in the giving set (unlikely due to sensors in the pump, and the likely presence of a filter) or direct injection near to the baby via a rubber port or a 3-way tap. What they just indicates the route not the method.

Which is what I said in my first post.

 

[Sundial]

Or maybe that was generic banter discussed frivolously and thus wasn’t remembered. People say a nurse shouldn’t diagnose but suggesting possible causes of a health issue as very passing conversation isn’t diagnosing. It’s talking nothing more and was deemed as forgettable by herself and colleagues.

Sure, I take your point; the strange thing is though when she was discussing it with colleagues via text as we have heard is the lack of that reciprocal conversation about said health issues. I noted colleagues weren’t as forthcoming around this, instead stating it was weird and odd and how ll was having a lot of bad luck/run of bad luck, poor you etc.

It’s strange when you look at the conversations ll is driving the health issue ideas, but when you look at the recipient- their replies are quite different.

Except dr choc with his vending machine.
Moo

 

[Sweeper2000]

There seems to be loads of things about air embolism that wouldn’t be necessary to know for a nurse for instance exactly what part of the heart the bubble gets stuck in, how lungs can filter out smaller bubbles without an issue, how the air bubble essentially starves the heart muscle of oxygen thus causing it to stop working, the difference between an air embolism and solid embolism or how air embolism wouldn’t necessarily get caught in any other vein or artery. The only thing I think a nurse would need to know is exactly what she said ie “don’t push air into the circulatory system“. There is broad differences in them as well for instance ”the bends” in diving and “surgical air embolism“ or even air embolism associated with ventilation. All of that comes after the fact that you know not to push air into a vein.

 

[WaxLyrical]

What do you mean "very few do"?
We are talking about nurses.
My nurse cousin said it is basics at Medical University.
They learnt the mechanism - when you understand it, you will never fail a patient.

JMO

when I said specifics/mechanics I’m talking about what the air embolism actually does to the patient, the symptoms it causes, what would show on an X-ray etc etc. not the fact that air embolisms are catastrophic if the air cannot dissipate before it reaches heart/brain, I suspect everyone working within medicine is fully aware of that. This trial spent weeks debating fleeting rashes, lines of gas etc.

 

[marynnu]

This is really interesting, and could potentially shed some light on the suggestion that some babies were administered air quickly and in higher volumes than potentially other babies, resulting in different outcomes for the babies. Eg distribution via a long line might mean the air is introduced more slowly than, say, the UVC.

Just speculating, based on my zero medical knowledge. JMO, if guilty, etc.

same

It would be the same either way, as the only real difference between the two is that a UVC goes via the umbilical cord! What would matter is the amount of air & how quickly it reached the baby, so the infusion rate. The route which would take effect almost immediately would be into a cannulla, obviously.
I feel I'm incriminating myself.

 

[esther43]

Absolutely not, I agree. Many moons ago now I worked in a care home and my first encounter was upsetting enough and I was around her age too. Across the years with frail adults it is sadly part of the role and something I had actually only occasionally seen (even in adult care) on shift. Nothing like the spikes in death like on this unit at all.
But I always remember when there had been a death, that sad reluctance of being the one to tend to last cares.
I understand this is different for everyone and a different patient group with a tiny infant not having a chance at life; BUT I have never encountered anyone who is “animated” (as the doctor reported regarding ll behaviour), emotionally attached like this or excited to carry out this task.

It’s disrespectful (for the patient and their loved ones) unprofessional and just plain weird.
JMO

Agree, disrespectful for any care provider to behave in that way but it's particularly complicated in this context because the family will be grieving for the time that they lost and the role they were unable to play. Most nurses have a good awareness of these issues.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Sure, I take your point; the strange thing is though when she was discussing it with colleagues via text as we have heard is the lack of that reciprocal conversation about said health issues. I noted colleagues weren’t as forthcoming around this, instead stating it was weird and odd and how ll was having a lot of bad luck/run of bad luck, poor you etc.

It’s strange when you look at the conversations ll is driving the health issue ideas, but when you look at the recipient- their replies are quite different.

Except dr choc with his vending machine.
Moo

Totally get that, I think the differences might be explained by the POV. Ll was the treating nurse but everyone else was kind of spectating. If ll knows or experienced it as very run of the mill clinical treatment she doesn’t have any reason to think of it as strange. It’s more or less just flown straight over her head whereas everyone else is looking in questioning it whereas ll wouldn’t have a reason to. If she did everything in accordance with routine there isn’t a reason for her to think anything is odd about it but not so from anyone else’s POV.

I think doc choc was likely engaging with her at what he perceived to be her level, ie trying to get her to like him. Maybe trying to impress her with his medical knowledge for reasons unknown to science.

 

[Sundial]

Agree, disrespectful for any care provider to behave in that way but it's particularly complicated in this context because the family will be grieving for the time that they lost and the role they were unable to play. Most nurses have a good awareness of these issues.

Her crying reported by the triplets parents intrigued me too. It’s human nature to have a few tears (and as I was once told by a senior), it’s what makes you human, and shows you care.. BUT, again, blubbering to the degree the parents were in front of them like has been reported (by the parents) is really worrying.
It does strike me as though she really struggles to separate her own emotional feelings from her profession role. In a way, it sounds as though said nurse is just breaking down in front of the families when the grief like that should be (and rightly so) the parents and theirs alone.
Moo

 

[marynnu]

Which is what I said in my first post.

Did you? I've lost track!

 

[Sundial]

Totally get that, I think the differences might be explained by the POV. Ll was the treating nurse but everyone else was kind of spectating. If ll knows or experienced it as very run of the mill clinical treatment she doesn’t have any reason to think of it as strange. It’s more or less just flown straight over her head whereas everyone else is looking in questioning it whereas ll wouldn’t have a reason to. If she did everything in accordance with routine there isn’t a reason for her to think anything is odd about it but not so from anyone else’s POV.

I think doc choc was likely engaging with her at what he perceived to be her level, ie trying to get her to like him. Maybe trying to impress her with his medical knowledge for reasons unknown to science.

But she wasn’t always the treating nurse though. Some of these babies she wasn’t even supposed to be caring for. Baby C for example 6 mins after her “frustrated” POV he then collapses.

My way or no way behaviour, if guilty.

I mean, why would it be her POV clinical treatment and no-one else’s on that team? She would not have been the only one with neonatal experience and/or qualifications. Even generic healthcare assistants in hospitals have a skill set admirable by nurses and consultants. The nursery nurse with years of experience too. Granted they can’t carry out the same clinical care as trained nurses, but it wasn’t as if she was working with (or messaging) colleagues from a non-healthcare background.

It’s a neonatal unit and this is a skilled team of staff. Her POV via messages is quite in contrast compared to that of her (also skilled in clinical treatment) colleagues.

JMO

 

[Dotta]

If she wanted to get the images of there dead babies out of her head, why not stay in room 3 with the healthier babies for a couple of shifts?

My suspicious nature thinks she was craving to be back in room 1 because she like the chaos and craziness of room 1 when emergencies are happening. Only 6 minutes after complaining about not being the designated nurse in room 1, even after she requested it, the baby in room one deteriorated suddenly and died the next day.



That^^^ kind of crazy coincidence could be overlooked if it was just those 3 babies. But those were babies A, B and C. And this same spike in collapses continued for a full year, up through Baby Q.

I agree 100%

If guilty...

She seems to be very cunning and dangerous IMO.

A proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing.

I honestly chuckle when I see men defending her so earnestly.

She would (allegedly) eat each of them for breakfast.

Too bad

It is only my opinion.

 

[esther43]

Yes, I can totally see that. Like when you question a young kid about what happened when you know they did it, they'll often come up with some elaborate story to try to convince you they didn't.

I'm fairly sure that were I innocent I'd not be trying to expand on answers with irrelevant information that's going to be inevitably torn to shreds. I think I might go further if I had something that categorically proved I didn't do it. For instance, if someone gets shot at 10pm in Newcastle and I can prove I was on top of Blackpool tower at the time then I'd certainly point it out.

Pretty sure she would have got legal advice on how to handle the interview. I also imagine that there are a number of transferrable skills a neonatal nurse could apply in this type of situation. Not only are they highly experienced in medical paradigms but also in answering complicated questions in a diplomatic way. This is part of their daily routine with very anxious parents, so it's not like she won't know how to guide others out of a rabbit hole or how to limit information to prevent overwhelm.
You can also see these skills being utilised by other important witnesses in the case. Not only are they able to explain their reasoning but also 'how they got there' because this is what they do all day, manage people, risk and situations. It's 'their thing'

 

[marynnu]

Pretty sure she would have got legal advice on how to handle the interview. I also imagine that there are a number of transferrable skills a neonatal nurse could apply in this type of situation. Not only are they highly experienced in medical paradigms but also in answering complicated questions in a diplomatic way. This is part of their daily routine with very anxious parents, so it's not like she won't know how to guide others out of a rabbit hole or how to limit information to prevent overwhelm.
You can also see these skills being utilised by other important witnesses in the case. Not only are they able to explain their reasoning but also 'how they got there' because this is what they do all day, manage people, risk and situations. It's 'their thing'

That's a very good point. You have to be able to stay calm in difficult situations and we've seen LL is more than capable of that when resus is involved.

 

[Dotta]

That's a very good point. You have to be able to stay calm in difficult situations and we've seen LL is more than capable of that when resus is involved.

I really don't want to sound argumentative

But, if guilty...

Her "calmness during resus" was the effect of her (allegedly) "orchestrating" it/them.

She seemed to be in her element.

She didn't look so professionally calm in other situations.
Quite the contrary.

It is only my opinion!

I will try to bite my tongue before saying anything

 

[marynnu]

I really don't want to sound argumentative

But, if guilty...

Her "calmness during resus" was the effect of her (allegedly) "orchestrating" it/them.

She seemed to be in her element.

She didn't seem to be so professionally calm in other situations.
Quite the contrary.

It is only my opinion!

I will try to bite my tongue before saying anything

It's very important to remain calm during resus situations, or at least appear calm for the sake of the team. It means absolutely nothing.

 

[esther43]

Sure, I take your point; the strange thing is though when she was discussing it with colleagues via text as we have heard is the lack of that reciprocal conversation about said health issues. I noted colleagues weren’t as forthcoming around this, instead stating it was weird and odd and how ll was having a lot of bad luck/run of bad luck, poor you etc.

It’s strange when you look at the conversations ll is driving the health issue ideas, but when you look at the recipient- their replies are quite different.

Except dr choc with his vending machine.
Moo

Honestly, I think Dr doc has got off lightly with his reputation for being a serial vendor. Geez I think if they turned over the modern day man's inbox they'd turn out far worse than chocolate..

 

[Sundial]

Honestly, I think Dr doc has got off lightly with his reputation for being a serial vendor. Geez I think if they turned over the modern day man's inbox they'd turn out far worse than chocolate..

Melted choc with dodgy sprinkles on them possibly. Delightful.

 

[esther43]

Melted choc with dodgy sprinkles on them possibly. Delightful.

Perfect for holding in the palm of one's hand.

 

[Legal]

Her crying reported by the triplets parents intrigued me too. It’s human nature to have a few tears (and as I was once told by a senior), it’s what makes you human, and shows you care.. BUT, again, blubbering to the degree the parents were in front of them like has been reported (by the parents) is really worrying.
It does strike me as though she really struggles to separate her own emotional feelings from her profession role. In a way, it sounds as though said nurse is just breaking down in front of the families when the grief like that should be (and rightly so) the parents and theirs alone.
Moo

Slightly off topic but this reminds me of when my dad died. When I met people on different occasions immediately after, some just acquaintances and some close friends, a small number started crying and getting really upset, which put me in the awkward position of comforting them! It was very weird. However, although that was unexpected, I would definitely not have been happy if it had happened in a professional context, for example having the nurses who had looked after him crying over my shoulder. That would have been incredibly selfish of them, IMO.

 

[Legal]

I agree 100%

If guilty...

She seems to be very cunning and dangerous IMO.

A proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing.

I honestly chuckle when I see men defending her so earnestly.

She would (allegedly) eat each of them for breakfast.

Too bad

It is only my opinion.

Are all the people who think she's innocent men? That would be interesting to know!