UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #18

[notsure]

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

We're now onto summaries for Child N - a baby boy it is claimed Ms Letby attempted to murder three times - once on 3 June 2016, and twice on 15 June 2016.
12:48 PM · Apr 25, 2023

 

[notsure]

I have to leave now. Will copy more of Dan's tweets later today if nobody else available.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I must say that LL is coming across as a not particularly likeable person, to me anyway.

That's what the prosecution are supposed to make you think, though.

From other stuff presented and how she presents as in her FB photos and suchlike it seems that plenty of people found her entirely likeable. I mean didn't one person say ".....oh no, not nice Lucy..." when she was first suspected?

 

[Sweeper2000]

She's clearly reasonably intelligent as she's relatively high banded for someone who was 25 at the time and was looking to become band 6 so has progressed fairly rapidly. She also seems to be able to handle herself pretty well in police interviews which tends to make me think that she's not quite the shy, clumsy person she seems to be being painted as.

Intelligence isn't the same as social awareness and having an ability to appreciate others actions and how you're perceived, though. Some remarkably intelligent people seem to have very few social skills or "common sense" when dealing with everyday occurrences.

She’s definitely not lacking in intelligence, I’m sure of that I just don’t think she’s got the level of intelligence or aptitude necessary to “play people“ for her own benefit at others loss. in other words to exploit or take advantage of her own elevated smarts or savvy. I do think in the work setting she is more reserved and engages with less forthright warmth than others. Definitely reasonably intelligent but imo not much more than others. I think she’s a hard worker who applies herself rather than someone who has Innately high iq.

she does seem to have handled herself in the police interviews but I’m almost sure a factor in that is her situational conditioning after suspension from clinical duties. She must have known it could head that way and had ample opportunity to prepare herself. Being on suspension pending Investigation would mean when the police interviews came around she probably felt very used to all that pressure. nothing new to her.

 

[Dotta]

How convenient not to remember things that make one look guilty!

Re the card
To remember sending it (such a compassionate gesture cough cough)

But don't remember checking (read: stalking) FB of the parents of this particular Baby

Phew,
Wish I had this gift to forget my errors!
I would be so lucky

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

Those weren't Dr J's words that you''ve got in quotes. He testified he asked what was going on and that LL replied 'she's just started desaturating now'. He didn't point at her.

The nurse didn't testify that she asked LL how she could see the baby in the dark. You're right that she didn't need to point it out, but she may have wanted to avoid it looking as if she had murdered the baby without any alarms going off, if the nurse discovered her dead after LL left the room.

As regards scanning, I've given six examples of this in reply to you before, in post #762 thread #15. UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #15

changes in alleged methods would break the chain of similar collapses and deaths being noticed.

gaps in alleged attacks -

After Jun 2015 gap of two months until after the investigation and debrief about baby A.

August to October 2015 - alleged murders/attacks of babies E&F, G, H and I.

23rd Oct 2015

baby I's death

An email was sent to staff raising concerns about an increase in mortality rates on the unit.

Around this time in October the consultants’ concerns about LL were escalated to Alison Kelly the director of nursing and her response was ‘it’s unlikely, we’ll see.’

26th Nov 2015

alleged attempted murder of baby J

After the shift a colleague messages LL saying “Tony Chambers and some woman turned up earlier”. LL says she hopes he got stuck in and helped.

Before Feb 2016 - Dr Brearey invited an independent neonatologist from Liverpool Women’s, Dr Nim Subhedar, to come in and analyse the unit and the increased death rate.

Night-shift 16th/17th Feb 2016 – LL messages a colleague that the unit is a hive of activity in preparation for a visit from the ‘big bods’. Alleged attempted murder of baby K, alarm not sounding when baby desaturated, after designated nurse left to go to see the mother.

February date unknown - Dr Subhedar’s review didn’t identify a reason but did flag LL as a common factor during all the collapses and deaths. Dr Brearey sent the report to Alison Kelly and also the head of Safety and Equality, the medical director, and the manager of the NNU, Eirian Powell. Dr Brearey demanded an urgent meeting to discuss the concerns but his request was ignored for three months and consultants faced pressure not to make a fuss.

9th April 2016 – alleged attempted murder twins L and M with alleged methods that would allow her not to be seen near those babies.

29th May 2016 - LL checked the Facebook of the mum of baby I.

3rd Jun 2016 – alleged attempted murder Child N

I didn’t mean he pointed at her only that in the POV of someone who is guilty the interaction pointed towards him holding her in suspicion and for someone who might be scanning the environment that would be a big giveaway. Maybe, imo.


that’s my mistake, I thought she said she asked how ll could see.

I never did think they were solid examples of scanning, especially the type I’m looking out for. They seemed to be prompted questions rather than out of place questions indicating worry as the root motivation of asking them. The last example is one imo though. I do think if there is only six examples of scanning over the year with five of them seemingly a part of the conversation without any particular gain on the part of the accused if guilty then they are very normal conversations. You don’t get much if anything from them. I would have expected more from a guilty person. Not something done with an ulterior motive. Not scanning for signs that she is held under suspicion. I would have expected scanning questions to be directed towards authority or the managers as they are the ones with power and in the know. Doc choc and dr vent would have been the go to for that imo.
a bonafide example of scanning is when she was told to do only days. She said the manager was “nice enough” I think that’s her analysing the interaction to see what she could make of the managers disposition or opinion on her. Seeing where she stands In her eyes. But is arguably innocuous.

those gaps are interesting though for sure.

 

[Parker Knoll]

She’s definitely not lacking in intelligence, I’m sure of that I just don’t think she’s got the level of intelligence or aptitude necessary to “play people“ for her own benefit at others loss. in other words to exploit or take advantage of her own elevated smarts or savvy. I do think in the work setting she is more reserved and engages with less forthright warmth than others. Definitely reasonably intelligent but imo not much more than others. I think she’s a hard worker who applies herself rather than someone who has Innately high iq.

she does seem to have handled herself in the police interviews but I’m almost sure a factor in that is her situational conditioning after suspension from clinical duties. She must have known it could head that way and had ample opportunity to prepare herself. Being on suspension pending Investigation would mean when the police interviews came around she probably felt very used to all that pressure. nothing new to her.

Quite the opposite IMO
She “ played “ the whole unit from nursing colleagues / parents / doctors and consultants for the whole period of the alleged attacks.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Quite the opposite IMO
She “ played “ the whole unit from nursing colleagues / parents / doctors and consultants for the whole period of the alleged attacks.

If she is guilty definitely, i just don’t think I have seen any evidence to suggest she is indeed playing the environment.

 

[Sweeper2000]

@LadyEdgeworth i was wondering if you could give us your take on the notes with the baffling content please? not the post it note titled “not good enough“ though, that ones different.

 

[Tortoise]

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
21m

Jury back in after a short break for lunch - we're continuing with interview summaries for Child N
·
15m

Manchester Crown Court has previously heard that in the early hours of 3 Ju, Child N experienced a "sudden deterioration" and was heard “screaming" and then crying for 30minutes
·
13m

The court has also previously heard that on 15 June, Child N suffered further collapses and bleeding was noted at the back of his throat. The Crown allege that the bleed could have been the result of an "inflicted injury".
·
13m

In her police interview, Ms Letby said she was 'not sure' why Child N was bleeding

·
8m

Asked 'are you responsible for the attempted murder of (Child N)', Ms Letby said 'no'

 

[Tortoise]

Letby replied: “I often take pictures of any cards that I have sent, even birthday cards – anything like that. I often take pictures of them.”

[...]

The detective said: “Why did you want to remember what you’d wrote to them, Lucy?”

She said: “It was upsetting losing (Child I) and I think it was nice to remember the kind words that I hoped I’d shared with that family.

“And as I say, I usually photograph any birthday cards that I send, anything like that. That’s what I usually would do.”

Nurse photographed sympathy card for baby she is accused of killing, court told

Lucy Letby denies murdering seven babies and attempting to murder another 10 at the Countess of Chester Hospital’s neo-natal unit.

www.dailyecho.co.uk

 

[Cluedoneit]

She’s definitely not lacking in intelligence, I’m sure of that I just don’t think she’s got the level of intelligence or aptitude necessary to “play people“ for her own benefit at others loss. in other words to exploit or take advantage of her own elevated smarts or savvy. I do think in the work setting she is more reserved and engages with less forthright warmth than others.

That’s an interesting viewpoint Sweeper, as we have numerous examples where she’s manipulated people in order to arrange things to her satisfaction. Baby C for example, she’s assigned to a very sick baby in room 3, but manipulated the conversation to persuade her colleague to agree to her going into room 1 for a bit, almost like requesting permission from her, even though Letby already knew she’d spent time in room 1 before that ’permission’ was given, but didn’t reveal it until her colleague suggested it would be ok. What purpose was complaining about something she’d already done and hiding it until your friend agreed it’d be ok Apart from having someone else to point to if her supervisor reprimands her for it? She also suggested Mel also felt the same, even though we have zero evidence that Mel did, and we know that Mel had lost baby A but hadn’t had the resus of Baby B, so was in a completely different situation. Whether innocent or guilty, that kind of behaviour shows very high levels of manipulation and cunning imo.

 

[Tortoise]

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
14s

We're now onto the summaries for Child O, a baby triplet who Ms Letby is alleged to have murdered on 23 June 2016.

 

[Cluedoneit]

Sorry @Parkerknoll, I think I cross posted with you as we were saying the exact same thing!

 

[ShireChe]

If she's guilty, I think she had a cunning-like smartness, an opportunist with the abilty to manipulate and deceive too.

If guilty, she was very clever to take full advantage of the existing weaknesses and conditions that the babies had, with the methods she used. And also took full advantage of very small windows of opportunity, like colleagues going on break, parents going for food, colleagues being in the same room but distracted by other babies, or updating notes on the computer.

And if guilty, she was also clever to target babies other than her own at times, and used methods that would implicate nurses on the next shift, when it was pointed out that she needed a break from the collpases being on her shift!.

Not cottoning on to the suspicion about her could be down to arrogance not lack of intelligence.

All JMO, if guilty etc.

Only my opinion, but don't see it as particularly smart to be honest. Babies dying just after she started/finished shifts, clusters of deaths and there were ample opportunities to be discovered. Consultants with strong suspicions and if whoever had received the insulin results had understand or followed up on them.

If guilty she was extremely 'lucky' to get away with it for so long. I don't see a huge amount of planning and intelligence about it all

 

[Tortoise]

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
3m

Manchester Crown Court has previously heard how Child O was in good condition and stable up until the afternoon of 23 June when he suffered a "remarkable deterioration" and died

·
37s

Ms Letby agreed when asked if Child O's death was 'unexpected'

 

[Dotta]

The detective said: “Why did you want to remember what you’d wrote to them, Lucy?”

She said: “It was upsetting losing (Child I) and I think it was nice to remember the kind words that I hoped I’d shared with that family.

“And as I say, I usually photograph any birthday cards that I send, anything like that. That’s what I usually would do.”

Nurse photographed sympathy card for baby she is accused of killing, court told

Lucy Letby denies murdering seven babies and attempting to murder another 10 at the Countess of Chester Hospital’s neo-natal unit.

www.dailyecho.co.uk

Sorry, but why would the detective call her by the first name:
"Why did you....., Lucy?"

Shouldn't it be "Ms Letby"?
She is an adult woman after all.

I ask b/c it is regarded somehow rude to use only a first name in formal settings, especially when talking to strangers (where I live).
Im just curious.

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

Sorry, but why would the detective call her by the first name:
"Why did you....., Lucy?"

Shouldn't it be "Ms Letby"?
She is an adult woman after all.

I ask b/c it is regarded somehow rude to use only a first name in formal settings, especially when talking to strangers (where I live).
Im just curious.

JMO

I think it's technique, building rapport.

 

[Tortoise]

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
1m

She denied harming Child O. 'I did not physically injure (Child O)', she said

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Sorry, but why would the detective call her by the first name:
"Why did you....., Lucy?"

Shouldn't it be "Ms Letby"?
She is an adult woman after all.

I ask b/c it is regarded somehow rude to use only a first name in formal settings, especially when talking to strangers (where I live).
Im just curious.

JMO

All sorts of psychological reasons per techniques that detectives use. Not that I'm any kind of expert but 'transactional analysis' is just one of many theories that explain how people are influenced by different types of (mainly verbal) interaction and how the state of mind can shift. IMO