UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #18

[ColourPurple]

Im not sure, but I suspect that, IF GUILTY, she treated others in objectifying way.

Like means of satisfying her needs/compulsions.

As if their rights/feelings didn't exist.

Maybe this letter of sympathy was written and saved to deny her feeling of emotional emptiness?
Like a proof to herself that she was capable of sympathy?

JMO

The thing is if she's innocent to keep the card for the reasons she's given is downright weird IMO

BUT if she's guilty then that reason no longer applies anyway. If she's guilty instead of keeping a card that she could look at to remind herself of the kind words she said to a grieving family... she's kept a card that she could look at to remind herself of the insincere words she said to the unsuspecting family of a baby that she had deliberately killed!

IMO, if guilty

 

[Sweeper2000]

Emotional attachment to a sympathy card you wrote to a family and baby you barely knew is not in any way normal IMO. Her explanation that she kept it so she could look back at the "kind" words she wrote to "that family" as she called them, is not normal IMO.

The whole point of a sympathy card is that you're expressing sympathy for the people who have suffered the loss. It's for THEIR benefit, not your own!

JMO

It didn’t seem to be normal for her to do. The attachment to the words not the card is normal generally speaking, the words are the connection that as I mentioned earlier people value highly. I would be more concerned if there was no attachment to any baby on the NNU at all. A NNU shouldn’t be a baby conveyor belt imo. The process of saying goodbye to these babies is something one would learn and eventually become conditioned to.

there is nothing to indicate she wrote that card for her own benefit nor the photo. Nor does it in any way lessen the Potential sincerity with which it may have been written. That photo could be the only thing that reminded her of the connection she once shared with that family In the following years once the event had been put to the back of her mind.

I can see why people think it’s strange tbh but the depth of the relationship that ll had with that family is relative to her POV. Ie she felt that that particular family she shared a deeper bond with than others and that was the reason for the card regardless of how well she actually knew them from all other perspectives. Tbh I think if she wanted to bask in the consequences of her actions she would have attended the funeral and taken pictures there. That’s only one day of work and if she felt that that family was that important she probably would have skipped on a days pay and got whatever perverse gain she would have got from attending if guilty. Ie they can’t have been that important to her if she’s not willing to skip a days pay for them.

 

[katydid23]

2015

7th June - twins A&B born. LL not working.


8th June -

9.21am - LL received a text telling her 30wk twins born last night and asking her if she could work that evening.

Mel Taylor was baby A's designated nurse for the day shift.

7.22pm LL arrived for her night-shift handover.

8pm care of baby A handed over to LL.

8.26pm baby A crashed,

8.33pm no heart rate detected. Chest compressions continue.

8.58pm baby A was pronounced dead.

LL had been his nurse for less than an hour.


9th June -

LL's night-shift.

Baby B is in room 1, LL is assigned two babies in room 3.

Not long after B's parents left her cotside and went to bed, LL was in room 1 taking baby B's blood gases. 15 minutes later B collapsed and stopped breathing. She was successfully resuscitated.


11th June -

LL texted asking if any spare shifts were going saying I need to take an ITU baby soon. She was told it's ok to have time out and enjoy the sun.


13th June -

LL back to work. She was assigned two babies in room 3 and this was the shift where she was told repeatedly to look after her very sick baby in room 3. Sophie Ellis had baby C in room 1, with support from Mel Taylor also in room 1.

9.48pm – whatsapp convo -
JJ-K: "You ok? x"
LL: "I just keep thinking about Monday. Feel like I need to be in 1 to overcome it, but E said no x"
JJ-K: "I agree with her, I don't think it will help. You need a break from full-on ITU, you have to let it go or it will eat you up. I know not easy and will take time."
LL: "Not the vented baby necessarily, I just feel I need to be in 1, to get the image out of my head. Mel said the same and E let her go. Being in 3 is eating me up. All I can see is him in 1 x. It probably sounds odd but it's how I feel x"
JJ-K: “Well it’s up to you but don’t think it’s going to help. It sounds very odd and I’d be complete opposite. Can understand E, she’s trying to look after you all.
LL: “Well that’s how I feel from when I’ve experienced it. At the Women’s I’ve needed to go straight back and have a sick baby, otherwise the image of the one you lost never goes. Why send Mel in if she’s trying to look after us? She was in bits over it. x I don’t expect people to understand but I know how I feel and how I have dealt with it before. I’ve voiced that so can’t do any more, but people should respect that. x”
JJ-K: “Ok. I think they do respect it but also trying to help you. Why don’t you go in 1 for a bit?”
LL: "Yeah, I have done a couple of meds in 1. I’ll be fine. x Forget I said anything, I’ll be fine, it's part of the job but just don't feel like there is much team spirit tonight x"
JJ-K: "I am not going to forget but just think you're way too hard on yourself. It is part of the job but the worst part but I do believe it makes us stronger people."
LL: Unfortunately I’ve seen my fair share at the Women’s but you are supported differently and here it’s like people want to tell you how to think/feel. Anyway, onwards and upwards. X
JJ-K: A lot of girls say Women’s don’t support and tell them to get on with it. I think they don’t mean to tell you though, and we’re over-caring sometimes.
11.09pm
LL: Women’s can be awful but I learnt hard way that you have to speak up to get support. I lost a baby one day and few hours later was given another dying baby just born in the same cot space. Girls there said it was important to overcome the image. It was awful but by end of day I realised they were right. It’s just different here. X Anyway forget it. I can only talk about it properly with those who knew him and Mel not interested so I’ll overcome it myself. You get some sleep. x

11.15pm - baby C collapsed - while LL was alone with him. He could not be revived. She told his mother she thought he was going to die and asked if she wanted to call a priest.

LL had to be told repeatedly to come out of the family room, and the father says she asked them to put the baby in the ventilated basket while he was still alive.

(whatsapp convo updated from the latest podcast)
The Trial of Lucy Letby: Episode 29, Arrested

From reading this convo again, it seems like these were the first deaths that LL dealt with in COC, where she was the caregiver?

IF SO, it seems very odd she went from not losing any babies, to suddenly losing several, and often on back to back shifts. Not to mention 22 incidents of total collapse.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I don’t remember the triplets parents saying that they asked her to dress and photograph the babies, I wonder if it’s true, or if she lied about that.

I think that if the parents had contradicted what she'd said on that score then it would definitely have been mentioned by the prosecution.

 

[JosieJo]

Regarding the nurses attending the funeral..In my experience there would usually just be 2 (often so as no one would attend alone) as representatives...unless it was a patient who had been in hospital for a very long time and got to know everyone.
It wouldn't be normal to try and change shift to attend...unless it's someone with a huge connection.

 

[Sweeper2000]

What about the evidence of all of the other medical experts, doctors and Dr Bohin? Her character and behaviour aren't at all at odds with their testimony in my opinion. At times her character appears arrogant and insensitive at the very least. Her behaviour is at times highly suspicious. I really hope she does take the stand, but I'm not convinced it would be in her favour.

One thing that hasn't been reported is what she had to say to police about the mother who testified that she observed Lucy standing doing nothing while her baby screamed with blood on its face. Then she made out in her notes that the mom had visited at a different time. Now that's suspicious behaviour.

What do you think is a better indication of her personality, our POV gained via snapshots of her life or the people who were around her on a daily basis for years? I can pull the quotes if you need me to but nearly all of them are glowing. Even when she has the opportunity to talk behind peoples backs without fear of repercussions she still doesn’t.

no the medical experts evidence all surround a diagnosis nothing at all on who she is. we haven’t heard anything that related to her mh or potential personality issues at a professional level at all unless you consider her fellow colleagues opinions to be as good as.

 

[Dotta]

What do you think is a better indication of her personality, our POV gained via snapshots of her life or the people who were around her on a daily basis for years? I can pull the quotes if you need me to but nearly all of them are glowing. Even when she has the opportunity to talk behind peoples backs without fear of repercussions she still doesn’t.

no the medical experts evidence all surround a diagnosis nothing at all on who she is. we haven’t heard anything that related to her mh or potential personality issues at a professional level at all unless you consider her fellow colleagues opinions to be as good as.

Re glowing reports

It is sub judice time, remember.

 

[katydid23]

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Detectives found the above image on Ms Letby's phone. She was asked why she took a pic of the card, she said it was 'upsetting losing (Child I) and I think it was nice to remember the kind words I shared with that family'
11:10 AM · Apr 25, 2023

She also said she 'often takes pictures of any cards I send even birthday cards'. She said this was the first and only card she had sent to a family of a baby she had treated
11:10 AM · Apr 25, 2023

"... and I think it was nice to remember the kind words I shared with that family"

I think that is very odd. I can see wanting to remember kind words someone shared with me or to me. But wanting to remember kind things I said to someone else by taking a photo? I don't get that. Don't you just say those things out of compassion, in a natural way? Why the need to take a photo?

 

[Marantz4250b]

I would be gobsmacked if she did. But I hope you're right!

Same. Virtually no chance she will, imo.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Re glowing reports

It is sub judice time, remember.

It can’t be surely, nothing at all to do with the verdict only the two bits of evidence I think are at odds with each other. Dotta you may have the liberty of reporting the posts and we will find out. Because it’s you.

 

[Parker Knoll]

I wonder if it could be the judge informing her of her rights to take the stand, in preparation for Thursday, so that she has overnight to consider.

Possibly but it would be something that would be discussed between BM and Letby.
I’m all out of ideas tbh !

 

[Jazmania]

What do you think is a better indication of her personality, our POV gained via snapshots of her life or the people who were around her on a daily basis for years? I can pull the quotes if you need me to but nearly all of them are glowing. Even when she has the opportunity to talk behind peoples backs without fear of repercussions she still doesn’t.

no the medical experts evidence all surround a diagnosis nothing at all on who she is. we haven’t heard anything that related to her mh or potential personality issues at a professional level at all unless you consider her fellow colleagues opinions to be as good as.

But we have heard plenty of evidence to say that a number of her colleagues were not at all happy with her, and she is often making snidey comments about other staff members to her co-worker friends.

Consider the nurse who testified that she had to repeatedly tell Letby to leave grieving parents alone, and to leave memory boxes to the designated nurse. Or Letby herself saying she's aware of not nice comments about her from other nurses. Or the junior nurse who testified that Letby shouted at her for raising the alarm about a baby. Coupled with the testimony of parents who said Letby said really weird insensitive things to them about how she loved giving their deceased baby their first bath etc. My point is that we have heard plenty of personality/behaviour evidence that does not contradict the account of medical witnesses.

 

[ColourPurple]

It didn’t seem to be normal for her to do. The attachment to the words not the card is normal generally speaking, the words are the connection that as I mentioned earlier people value highly. I would be more concerned if there was no attachment to any baby on the NNU at all. A NNU shouldn’t be a baby conveyor belt imo. The process of saying goodbye to these babies is something one would learn and eventually become conditioned to.

There aren't only two options. No attachment or unhealthy attachment.

there is nothing to indicate she wrote that card for her own benefit nor the photo. Nor does it in any way lessen the Potential sincerity with which it may have been written. That photo could be the only thing that reminded her of the connection she once shared with that family In the following years once the event had been put to the back of her mind.

She's said herself that she she photographed the card for her own benefit.

I can see why people think it’s strange tbh but the depth of the relationship that ll had with that family is relative to her POV. Ie she felt that that particular family she shared a deeper bond with than others and that was the reason for the card regardless of how well she actually knew them from all other perspectives.

She didn't have deep relationship with that family, other than in her head, and any imagined bond or connection was one-sided on her part. That in itself is worrying IMO

Tbh I think if she wanted to bask in the consequences of her actions she would have attended the funeral and taken pictures there. That’s only one day of work and if she felt that that family was that important she probably would have skipped on a days pay and got whatever perverse gain she would have got from attending if guilty. Ie they can’t have been that important to her if she’s not willing to skip a days pay for them.

So on one hand you're saying she felt she had a deep bond and connection with them but on the other hand you're saying they can't have been that important to her or she'd have taken the day off.

RE basking in the consequences of her alleged actions by going to the funeral and taking pics. Pics of what ? The grieving parents? the coffin? Like that wouldn't draw attention to her?

If she's guilty then the whole reason she gave for keeping a photo of the card is untrue. She would no longer be keeping the photo to remind her of kind words she had said to a family she'd bonded with, would she? She'd be keeping it for a very different reason.

ALL JMO

 

[DinerMite]

I get the impression LL wasn't Nurse Hudsons biggest fan, the motive behind Baby I is quite evident, if guilty, imo

 

[Dotta]

It can’t be surely, nothing at all to do with the verdict only the two bits of evidence I think are at odds with each other. Dotta you may have the liberty of reporting the posts and we will find out. Because it’s you.

Im not sure I understand your answer to me - sorry

I meant any SM posts showing a defendant in bad light - especially from ppl who know her personally - are removed.

What we write on forums are just our opinions based on MSM reports.
And we always add - JMO, MOO, etc.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Emotional attachment to a sympathy card you wrote to a family and baby you barely knew is not in any way normal IMO. Her explanation that she kept it so she could look back at the "kind" words she wrote to "that family" as she called them, is not normal IMO.

The whole point of a sympathy card is that you're expressing sympathy for the people who have suffered the loss. It's for THEIR benefit, not your own!

JMO

I think that too much is being read into the thing of her taking a photo of the card. People, especially young people, take photos of literally everything these days so I don't think it's at all unusual.

Let's also not forget that LL is quite the hoarder, which we know from the numbers of hand over sheets and she had along with other seemingly pointless possessions in her house. She says she often takes photos of cards she sends - if there were no such photos on her phone I think the prosecution would make that point. They haven't, so.........

 

[Sweeper2000]

But we have heard plenty of evidence to say that a number of her colleagues were not at all happy with her, and she is often making snidey comments about other staff members to her co-worker friends.

Consider the nurse who testified that she had to repeatedly tell Letby to leave grieving parents alone, and to leave memory boxes to the designated nurse. Or Letby herself saying she's aware of not nice comments about her from other nurses. Or the junior nurse who testified that Letby shouted at her for raising the alarm about a baby. Coupled with the testimony of parents who said Letby said really weird insensitive things to them about how she loved giving their deceased baby their first bath etc. My point is that we have heard plenty of personality/behaviour evidence that does not contradict the account of medical witnesses.

The only people to express concerns about her were those who had been in on the AE theory. Ie consultants her fellow nurses all thought highly of her, remember doc choc said no one could fault her on the level of care delivered. That is those same consultants/doctors.

this is jmo but there are very very few instances of her being decidedly suspicious and Virtually none to suggest bad character. She is odd though.

 

[marynnu]

I would be more concerned if there was no attachment to any baby on the NNU at all.

I wouldn't.

can see why people think it’s strange tbh but the depth of the relationship that ll had with that family is relative to her POV. Ie she felt that that particular family she shared a deeper bond with than others

You don't share a bond with particular families, or at least it's extremely rare & somewhat unprofessional IMO. All the babies & families are equally deserving of the same care & attention.

Just to add, you can't just take a day off, paid or otherwise, to attend the funeral of a patient.

 

[Dotta]

The only people to express concerns about her were those who had been in on the AE theory. Ie consultants her fellow nurses all thought highly of her, remember doc choc said no one could fault her on the level of care delivered. That is those same consultants/doctors.

this is jmo but there are very very few instances of her being decidedly suspicious and Virtually none to suggest bad character. She is odd though.

I think the Consultants suspected her early on, but their warnings were ignored by management.

JMO

 

[marynnu]

I think the Consultants suspected her early on, but their warnings were ignored by management.

JMO

Correct. And without doubt she was a perfectly capable nurse who had good skills. That's not really the issue.