UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #18

[Anxala]

Reading over this again (see, I regularly reread things to check my wording!), this bit clicked in my brain as to why I'm more stuck on the fence, and disagree with many of the points people make about her behaviour; so much of what gets raised negatively on this thread is fairly innocuous to me.

I'm not suggesting LL is on the spectrum, the choice of a nursing job seems very incongruous with poor social skills (I'd be completely incapable of it!), so it's not very likely, but so much of it seems just like things I could/would do, that it's hard for me to find them sinister, which then removes some weight from the guilty side of the scale which many of you I think are adding (quite possibly correctly).

I don't tend to throw things out (or I have a clearout and things get missed); granted I never acquire large amounts of papers that shouldn't be in my possession but the collecting papers and documenting stuff in the diary, I can see. I'm poor at reading the room to realise when people want me to go away or shut up; I'd fail to realise Dr Choc's intentions and brush him off in a similar way; I mess up my wording at times and come off abrupt or even rude.

I get overly emotionally involved with things at times, and I struggle to cope with being prevented from doing something I wanted/expected, so can understand the agitation over being kept out of room 1 and even the just plain ignoring instructions to leave (I wouldn't go that far but would likely make my feelings known - when out of the moment I realise I was unreasonable, but I can't flip a switch and instantly see sense). I'd care far more about my personal life than about people I barely knew who are long since past any help, so the reactions to her room and not to the evidence about the babies make perfect sense to me.

Basically most of the things people are pointing to to say "it's all about her" are just "normal" to me. I'm a bit self-centered, yes, but I don't believe I'm a bad person. Manifestly unsuited to nursing, definitely, and LL clearly was too.

(This is not any reflection of my opinions of the medical evidence; only the behavioural side of things)

I 'liked' your post earlier without commenting further on it.

I'm now, having has a read back, wanting to really applaud you for giving such a detailed and incredibly helpful insight into what might be.

 

[katydid23]

^ Yes, above is interesting. She certainly wasn't backward in coming forward.

But I'm struggling with the idea that someone could be actively seeking promotion while also casually murdering babies. There's a disconnect there.

I'd have thought the last thing someone so focused and ambitious (which she seems to have been) would want is a trail of dead infants in her wake? Wouldn't the contrary - ie. a procession of caringly and efficiently nurtured, nourished and 'saved' babies, all healthily and happily sent off home - be a far more useful demonstration to others of her nursing skills/capabilities and readiness for promotion?

Killing babies is not always a rational or logical decision. It is sometimes a raging compulsion that the perp has to deal with. Sometimes they deal with it by accepting it and then living their life as best as they can, in spite of it. JMO

 

[Tortoise]

The jury was told that in Letby’s spare bedroom police found a paper shredder containing the remnants of “bank or visa bill statements” that had been destroyed.

A box for a paper shredder was recovered from her parent’s house in Hereford, containing five handover sheets from Letby’s hospital shifts.

Lucy Letby: initials of babies noted in diary on dates of alleged attacks, court told

Note saying ‘I don’t know if I killed them. Maybe I did’ also seen in Manchester trial of nurse accused of murdering seven babies

www.theguardian.com

and on her second arrest more papers were discovered at her parents' house

"A search of the garage at the Westbourne Road property on June 10 revealed another handwritten note found in a black bin bag.

Phrases on that note included 'killing me softly', 'broken hearted' and 'no-one will ever know what happened or why'.

Six pages of medical notes of children unrelated to the trial were found at her parents' home on the same date."

Nurse Lucy Letby accused of murdering seven babies weeps during trial

Letby (pictured), originally from Hereford, was first arrested in July 2018 on suspicion of attacking infants in her care - two years after she worked her last shift at Chester Hospital's neo-natal unit.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Sundial]

Bedtime stories?

That’s an interesting quote, when at uni there is a thing lecturers say about research articles and the such, calling it a humorous term as “bedtime reading”

Not confidential patient information mind!

 

[marynnu]

Six pages of medical notes of children unrelated to the trial were found at her parents' home on the same date."

So what exactly were these, I wonder?

 

[Sweeper2000]

But equally, regardless of what band or training she had; it isn’t normal and she would know that. It’s frighteningly worrying.
In her police interview she talks about AE and how they are told and taught during her training not to have air in lines/injections; and yet one of the most fundamental points of training is patient confidentiality and she has hoards of paperwork related to this exact thing in her possession.
Now whether she is a hoarder or not, she’s an educated, trained (healthcare) professional who stated “maybe I could spot something the other nurse couldn’t” (or whatever it was); she would then also have known this is a huge, big red no-no. Why would you keep them for?? There is no purpose to have them like this, and no business of hers in doing so and not properly disposing of them as she should. She would have known that.
MOO

these are all valid points. One potential reason that is innocuous is her simply not leaving work at work. There is plenty in the evidence presented to suggest that as a viable reaso but yes very much against the rules.

we will eventually find out what she said in police interviews and I’m waiting to see if it matches what we know about her.


one potentially nefarious reason is her keeping the notes as a sort of fallback option should she be caught or suspected of wrongdoing she knew she did. That would have information on it that she could twist to her defence and is one of the few bits of paperwork she could take without raising suspicion.

 

[Marantz4250b]

What I don’t understand, is how some
of those sheets ended up at her parents address. If she’s taken them home when in hospital accommodation, and when she moved to her new address- how are they also at her parents, unless she’s moved them?

I read it that she left home to go to university, would have been in hospital accommodation and then her new house. Unless she’s moved those papers back to her parents when she was on bail? Anyone have any ideas?

It was mentioned way, way back that she kept her room at her parents place. I get the impression that she stayed over there fairly regularly.

She definitely moved back there after her suspension/arrest, etc as her address is always given as Arran Avenue, Herford, in the court reports.

 

[Sweeper2000]

It was mentioned way, way back that she kept her room at her parents place. I get the impression that she stayed over there fairly regularly.

Ahe definitely moved back there after her suspension/arrest, etc as her address is always given as Arran Avenue, Herford, in the court reports.

Do you think she would drive the long distance without going to hers first of all?. Thus taking the med notes there straight after work, just because she’s got a really really bad habit.

 

[Dotta]

Do you think she would drive the long distance without going to hers first of all?. Thus taking the med notes there straight after work, just because she’s got a really really bad habit.

Nothing to do with "really bad habit" IMO, if guilty, of course.

Taking them there as her "precious possessions" to keep in a special box in the closet/wardrobe(?) and read from time to time.

By the way, while in parents' home, at Christmas, didn't she "check" FB of victim's parents first thing in the morning?

JMO

 

[Sundial]

It was mentioned way, way back that she kept her room at her parents place. I get the impression that she stayed over there fairly regularly.

She definitely moved back there after her suspension/arrest, etc as her address is always given as Arran Avenue, Herford, in the court reports.

See this is an interesting point because when she was chatting with dr V and the discussion about emigrating etc, she said her parents possibly wouldn’t like it- in that same conversation she discusses about her having moved away/re uni etc and another where she’d messaged her mum saying “guess who’s coming for Christmas”.. in these discussions I actually got the impression that she didn’t visit regularly.
I don’t know what it is, perhaps the topic of moving away to study etc it was just the gist I got. She seems to be in touch regularly with her mum at least (re from her messages)- I guess it’s difficult to know really.

That said, I didn’t see the topic that she’d kept her room at her parents house. No biggy really though, I’ve known 40 year old somethings whose parents have kept their room still the same for them. Still, interesting points

Moo

 

[Sweeper2000]

Nothing to do with "really bad habit" IMO, if guilty, of course.

Taking them there as her "precious possessions" to keep in a special box in the closet/wardrobe(?) and read from time to time.

By the way, while in parents' home, at Christmas, didn't she "check" FB of victim's parents first thing in the morning?

JMO

It does seem like a really really bad habit to have that many. one thing I think might go against the idea that any of these notes at her parents house were highly valued by her was the fact that they were found in what was more or less a waste paper basket. It’s also worth noting that she must have left them there at some point Or didn’t gather them to her own place, they can’t be that important to her if she leaves them all over the place including other addresses. Is that the box that said “keep”? The way the article tortoise posted reads is that it wasn’t the same box that went with the shredder used for the bank documents. So is that a box she used to store anything eventually going in the shredder? Or is it indeed one for keeps? Strange evidence imo

just a thought though. What were the dates on the ones found at her parents address? I can see her leaving some at her parents before her new home but not after and it was only three months she was there before the suspension. in those three months do we know if ll travelled to her parents?

 

[DinerMite]

Personally, I don't think it matters that only so many of the notes relate to the babies in the trial. It's quite the insight that she had over 250(!!) notes regardless. There's a clear obsession with keeping sensitive info about neonatal babies imo

On another note, I'm quite surprised we haven't heard from Karen Reese, can the defense possibly call her?

 

[Sweeper2000]

There’s the possibility that she kept so many over that year as a cover for the actual trophies. I’m sure this is circular questions though as it comes back to the question of why keep them if guilty and involves the defendant knowing anyone finding any notes at all makes her look bad. I can’t see anyone keeping them if guilty and in the manner in which they were found and knowing how bad they would make one look if found Which if guilty one had planned for.

im curious to know if the time she said “no evidence obviously, would have been spoken to” was after she knew they had the handover sheets.

 

[Dotta]

It does seem like a really really bad habit to have that many. one thing I think might go against the idea that any of these notes at her parents house were highly valued by her was the fact that they were found in what was more or less a waste paper basket. It’s also worth noting that she must have left them there at some point Or didn’t gather them to her own place, they can’t be that important to her if she leaves them all over the place including other addresses. Is that the box that said “keep”? The way the article tortoise posted reads is that it wasn’t the same box that went with the shredder used for the bank documents. So is that a box she used to store anything eventually going in the shredder? Or is it indeed one for keeps? Strange evidence imo

just a thought though. What were the dates on the ones found at her parents address? I can see her leaving some at her parents before her new home but not after and it was only three months she was there before the suspension. in those three months do we know if ll travelled to her parents?

It seems everybody has a different interpretation.

If we here are representatives of society (international) it might mean this trial could end with a "hung Jury".

JMO

 

[Dotta]

On another note, I'm quite surprised we haven't heard from Karen Reese, can the defense possibly call her?

I don't envy her.

Considering how all this "unholy mess" finished.

JMO

 

[Popcorn80]

Something I have found interesting regarding the triplets, the average birth week is 33 weeks.
If babies were dying at this gestation this would be looked at nationally.

 

[Eloise]

Personally, I don't think it matters that only so many of the notes relate to the babies in the trial. It's quite the insight that she had over 250(!!) notes regardless. There's a clear obsession with keeping sensitive info about neonatal babies imo

On another note, I'm quite surprised we haven't heard from Karen Reese, can the defense possibly call her?

Yeah it blows my mind she had hundreds of them. To me it doesn't matter much that they weren't only about the babies that she's accused of harming, it is such a huge breach of normal practice and confidentiality/privacy! These odd behaviours of hers all add up to something, I'm not quite sure what though. jmo

 

[Charlot123]

I sometimes wonder if it makes sense to make a two predictive models, starting from 2011, and ending with 2020, of the NICU mortality. One, assuming LL was a murderer, and another, that she was not, all other factors being equal. To see if there is a rise in NICU mortality in 2015-2016 assuming no murderer on the unit. And if there still is predicted rise in NICU mortality, do something- isn’t it called regression analysis? - to determine what other factors could contribute. In other words, could we prove/disprove by statistics alone? For any event, there are so many various explanations.

 

[katydid23]

dbm

 

[katydid23]

I sometimes wonder if it makes sense to make a two predictive models, starting from 2011, and ending with 2020, of the NICU mortality. One, assuming LL was a murderer, and another, that she was not, all other factors being equal. To see if there is a rise in NICU mortality in 2015-2016 assuming no murderer on the unit. And if there still is predicted rise in NICU mortality, do something- isn’t it called regression analysis? - to determine what other factors could contribute. In other words, could we prove/disprove by statistics alone? For any event, there are so many various explanations.

I think they did that in the beginning, before they even knew there was any kind of malicious actor.

They already had statistical analysis running automatically, to pick up any abnormalities in the hospital. They are always looking at trends, positive or negative, in the various units.

And this sudden spike in collapses was very pronounced. They were not looking at nurses or doctors as being any kind of culprits at the time. They were looking at viral infections, lack of proper training, or something like that to try and understand what was happening.