UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #18

[esther43]

I suppose if she'd elaborated it might seem more average with the birthday cards, for example one could say, I like to remember the date of people's birthdays and remind self what card and what I wrote last year. But for a baby's death? What's the purpose, it's not like it's a recurring event and also never needs review IMO.

Just having a quick catch up on post so not sure if it's been mentioned but yes she told Doc Choc she'd heard she was being considered for a promotion on the ward owtte. This was long before he mentioned the practioner's training.

I don't have an article to prove it but I am pretty sure LL was a band 6.
Also, I don't think you can apply to be a neonatal nurse practitioner without being a band 6 first.

 

[Sundial]

Just having a quick catch up on post so not sure if it's been mentioned but yes she told Doc Choc she'd heard she was being considered for a promotion on the ward owtte. This was long before he mentioned the practioner's training.

I did wonder what this was at the time because I assumed she already was a band 6. When they were discussing her advanced practitioner training, I thought perhaps that’s maybe what it was (or at least an opening for it being suggested previously).

Now I’m not so sure if she is actually indeed a band 5 and I do wonder if she was actually competing for an actual band 6 post. If guilty, it gives some insight on the whole case. She does seem to make a point of the skill set on the unit, mixture, the colleagues supposedly implying they are happy for her to work with the sicker babies, more experienced etc. I struggle to understand how she’s more experienced/better than others if they are (mostly) experienced, trained staff. Or is it because she worked at the women’s in Liverpool, she seems to be rather big-headed about that; eg dealt with it before I know how I feel, people should respect that and the Mel was allowed to go back in room 1 why can’t I sort of scenario.

All quite odd. If guilty JMO

 

[JosieJo]

I don't have an article to prove it but I am pretty sure LL was a band 6.
Also, I don't think you can apply to be a neonatal nurse practitioner without being a band 6 first.

I thought she was till this week but saw this after posters told me she was a 5

"She said: "At the time we were talking about we had massive staffing issues where people were coming in and doing extra shifts.
"It was mainly Lucy that did a lot as she was one of only three band five nurses that had done the neonatal course at that time."

Lucy Letby: Murder-accused nurse keen to work overtime, jury told - BBC News

The nurse was "willing and wanting" more shifts at the time she allegedly tried to kill a baby.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Sundial]

I don't have an article to prove it but I am pretty sure LL was a band 6.
Also, I don't think you can apply to be a neonatal nurse practitioner without being a band 6 first.

The strange thing with this, even if she was indeed a band 6, we don’t hear of her being shift leader at any point in these cases. It just seems odd.

 

[Sundial]

I thought she was till this week but saw this after posters told me she was a 5

"She said: "At the time we were talking about we had massive staffing issues where people were coming in and doing extra shifts.
"It was mainly Lucy that did a lot as she was one of only three band five nurses that had done the neonatal course at that time."

Lucy Letby: Murder-accused nurse keen to work overtime, jury told - BBC News

The nurse was "willing and wanting" more shifts at the time she allegedly tried to kill a baby.

www.bbc.co.uk

Do we know who the other band 5s were and whether the “conflict” or whatever was amongst other band 5s who weren’t so keen on her?
I wonder if this is a factor in competing for/creating situations where she is the strongest candidate for that post.

All just my own musings JMO if guilty etc

 

[ColourPurple]

I don't have an article to prove it but I am pretty sure LL was a band 6.
Also, I don't think you can apply to be a neonatal nurse practitioner without being a band 6 first.

I thought she was till this week but saw this after posters told me she was a 5

"She said: "At the time we were talking about we had massive staffing issues where people were coming in and doing extra shifts.
"It was mainly Lucy that did a lot as she was one of only three band five nurses that had done the neonatal course at that time."

Lucy Letby: Murder-accused nurse keen to work overtime, jury told - BBC News

The nurse was "willing and wanting" more shifts at the time she allegedly tried to kill a baby.

www.bbc.co.uk

Do we know who the other band 5s were and whether the “conflict” or whatever was amongst other band 5s who weren’t so keen on her?
I wonder if this is a factor in competing for/creating situations where she is the strongest candidate for that post.

All just my own musings JMO if guilty etc

Yes even Myers referred to her recently as being band five and having a different uniform form band six nurses. I think the confusion stems from an article that was referring to another nurse as being band six, and we all assumed the reference was to LL.

I agree now we know LL is a band five nurse, and that she felt she was earmarked for a promotion on the ward, it would be really interesting to know who the other band fivers were. If guilty, did she start targetting their babies, to make it look like they'd missed things and that she was the most competent?

JMO

 

[Sundial]

Yes even Myers referred to her recently as being band five and having a different uniform form band six nurses. I think the confusion stems from an article that was referring to another nurse as being band six, and we all assumed the reference was to LL.

I agree now we know LL is a band five nurse, and that she felt she was earmarked for a promotion on the ward, it would be really interesting to know who the other band fivers were. If guilty, did she start targetting their babies, to make it look like they'd missed things and that she was the most competent?

Re trying to be seen as the ‘most competent’
That’s the impression I’m now starting to get. Face of the unit/fundraising etc, putting herself forward for all these shifts, the hugging, cards, going way over the top and sucking up to the doctors etc.
it just all comes across a bit “Me”, see me/look at me. Promotion.

It was mentioned how she’d seemingly experienced a lot for her age at that time. The most experienced and the conversations she’d had with dr choc about her expertise and experiences, her skill set. Calling specifically for dr choc, to observe how good she was, calm.. best person for an upcoming potential band 6 post. He’d recommend her for sure, we see that already with the advanced practioner role discussion.

If guilty, setting the stage for her own gain. If guilty. JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

Re trying to be seen as the ‘most competent’
That’s the impression I’m now starting to get. Face of the unit/fundraising etc, putting herself forward for all these shifts, the hugging, cards, going way over the top and sucking up to the doctors etc.
it just all comes across a bit “Me”, see me/look at me. Promotion.

It was mentioned how she’d seemingly experienced a lot for her age at that time. The most experienced and the conversations she’d had with dr choc about her expertise and experiences, her skill set. Calling specifically for dr choc, to observe how good she was, calm.. best person for an upcoming potential band 6 post. He’d recommend her for sure, we see that already with the advanced practioner role discussion.

If guilty, setting the stage for her own gain. If guilty. JMO

Now I'm wondering if the other nurse than she told Doc Choc was faffing about in resus was another band five nurse.

If guilty, it's very easy to look like the calm collected one in resus if youre the one who orchestrated it all, and it was a shock to everybody else involved.

JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

I've found the reference to LL thinking she was being lined up for a new job. It's around triplet time :

Letby asks: "What gestation are the trips? I don't mind being busy anyway..."

Doctor: "33+5 [weeks gestation]. 3x Optiflo..."

After more messages, the doctor asks Letby if she has any choice where she is working.

Letby: "No, not with this new handover. Shift leader of night shift allocates for the day shift and vice versa. If your on a run of shifts you tend to stay with same babies."

Letby adds due to the skillsets, she tends to work in nursery room 1.

Letby adds she feels "most at home with ITU [intensive treatment unit] and the girls know that Im quite happy to be in 1 so works out well most of the time."

The doctor replies: "...I like it when you're in itu - everything feels safe and well organised..."

Letby: "Awe that's nice to hear, Huw often says that too - see what happens tomorrow."

Letby adds there is a potential job opening on the unit which she believes she might be lined up for.

The doctor: 'If you didn't want it now, could you defer?'

Letby: 'Yes good to know and worth thinking about...& yes, I'm sure she would let me defer.'

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, March 8

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Sundial]

Now I'm wondering if the other nurse than she told Doc Choc was faffing about in resus was another band five nurse.

If guilty, it's very easy to look like the calm collected one in resus if youre the one who orchestrated it all, and it was a shock to everybody else involved.

JMO

And as soon as these seemingly stable babies allocated nurse or parents left the ward/cot she’s there, saving the day, just like that. Apparently magnificent. Her colleagues prefer her as the ‘most experienced’ and her skill set. How so as a band 5?
Something is really off with this; she appeared very close with Dr V and then when that friendship fizzled/she left and she’s not getting the same admiration for her efforts from her other colleagues (re; worried about you, bad luck etc), she then seeks it from dr choc. Calling specifically for him even after another doctor had attended.

Fitting he would be around/close by, called back when he went to the staff room with dr tea: Look how good I am.. wasn’t too long before he was adoring her efforts and recommending for that advanced practioner role. Never mind throwing anyone under a bus to get where you want, even if that involves the expense of your patients.
IF guilty of course.

MOO JMO

 

[Anxala]

Re trying to be seen as the ‘most competent’
That’s the impression I’m now starting to get. Face of the unit/fundraising etc, putting herself forward for all these shifts, the hugging, cards, going way over the top and sucking up to the doctors etc.
it just all comes across a bit “Me”, see me/look at me. Promotion.

It was mentioned how she’d seemingly experienced a lot for her age at that time. The most experienced and the conversations she’d had with dr choc about her expertise and experiences, her skill set. Calling specifically for dr choc, to observe how good she was, calm.. best person for an upcoming potential band 6 post. He’d recommend her for sure, we see that already with the advanced practioner role discussion.

If guilty, setting the stage for her own gain. If guilty. JMO

^ Yes, above is interesting. She certainly wasn't backward in coming forward.

But I'm struggling with the idea that someone could be actively seeking promotion while also casually murdering babies. There's a disconnect there.

I'd have thought the last thing someone so focused and ambitious (which she seems to have been) would want is a trail of dead infants in her wake? Wouldn't the contrary - ie. a procession of caringly and efficiently nurtured, nourished and 'saved' babies, all healthily and happily sent off home - be a far more useful demonstration to others of her nursing skills/capabilities and readiness for promotion?

 

[ColourPurple]

^ Yes, above is interesting. She certainly wasn't backward in coming forward.

But I'm struggling with the idea that someone could be actively seeking promotion while also casually murdering babies. There's a disconnect there.

I'd have thought the last thing someone so focused and ambitious (which she seems to have been) would want is a trail of dead infants in her wake? Wouldn't the contrary - ie. a procession of caringly and efficiently nurtured, nourished and 'saved' babies, all healthily and happily sent off home - be a far more useful demonstration to others of her nursing capabilities and readiness for promotion?

Obviously it's not a normal thing to do but IF she's guilty of killing babies she clearly isn't normal. Promotion could be just one of many reasons. If we look at the job -related positives she gets, even if resus is unsuccessful- she gets to look like the calm, collected, competent one while others "faff around", often she gets to be seen as the one who was skilled enough to recognise that the baby was about to deteriorate or need resus ( or as Doc Choc said If you''re worried, I'm worried) and she gets to show how she can cope with the memory boxes, taking pics, bathing the babies etc.

IF guilty IMO

 

[Sundial]

^ Yes, above is interesting. She certainly wasn't backward in coming forward.

But I'm struggling with the idea that someone could be actively seeking promotion while also casually murdering babies. There's a disconnect there.

I'd have thought the last thing someone so focused and ambitious (which she seems to have been) would want is a trail of dead infants in her wake? Wouldn't the contrary - ie. a procession of caringly and efficiently nurtured, nourished and 'saved' babies, all healthily and happily sent off home - be a far more useful demonstration to others of her nursing capabilities and readiness for promotion?

Not necessarily.
In some of these instances it’s possible she could have just been trying to demonstrate said skillset in the moment.
So whether death or not was the intention, for me it seems more about the “action” of resus, the demonstration of “why” someone would be the most suitable for a possible promotion. Whatever the cost.

It seems outrageous but I have actually been around people like this. It’s quite scary and they too have been ambitious and focused. And indeed they can be VERY manipulative in getting their own way.

And what better way to shut said colleague up with their “concerned about you” comments than to have a doctor by your side. Commending your efforts, how fabulous and calm you are. What better way to demonstrate to the whispers how you’re the most suitable candidate for any upcoming promotion, than deliberately making a point of sharing what the manager thinks of you too?

Collateral damage. Promotion. Me.
At the expense of other peoples lives.
If guilty and only if guilty.
JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

^ Yes, above is interesting. She certainly wasn't backward in coming forward.

But I'm struggling with the idea that someone could be actively seeking promotion while also casually murdering babies. There's a disconnect there.

I'd have thought the last thing someone so focused and ambitious (which she seems to have been) would want is a trail of dead infants in her wake? Wouldn't the contrary - ie. a procession of caringly and efficiently nurtured, nourished and 'saved' babies, all healthily and happily sent off home - be a far more useful demonstration to others of her nursing skills/capabilities and readiness for promotion?

It’s definitely a reach but Never mind, obviously if guilty etc.

 

[Anxala]

Obviously it's not a normal thing to do but IF she's guilty of killing babies she clearly isn't normal.

This is the problem, isn't it? It's impossible to assign motivation to anything she says/does because we just don't know if she's coming from a stable place.

 

[esther43]

I thought she was till this week but saw this after posters told me she was a 5

"She said: "At the time we were talking about we had massive staffing issues where people were coming in and doing extra shifts.
"It was mainly Lucy that did a lot as she was one of only three band five nurses that had done the neonatal course at that time."

Lucy Letby: Murder-accused nurse keen to work overtime, jury told - BBC News

The nurse was "willing and wanting" more shifts at the time she allegedly tried to kill a baby.

www.bbc.co.uk

The strange thing with this, even if she was indeed a band 6, we don’t hear of her being shift leader at any point in these cases. It just seems odd.

I agree it's a bit strange.
I find it odd for example that as a potential band 6 she would need to be told where to go and what to do. I work with and around neonatal care but am not privi to band 6 meetings etc but from what I see it's all about the band 6's managing the band 5's and under, have heard them being referred to as the 'linchpins of the unit' by SM. Jmo

 

[ColourPurple]

This is the problem, isn't it? It's impossible to assign motivation to anything she says/does because we just don't know if she's coming from a stable place.

True, and even if guilty I doubt we'll ever know for sure, but I think it''s human nature to think why on earth would anybody do something like what is alleged to have happened in this case. And with the recent confirmation that LL is band 5 not 6, if guilty, it opens up the possibility of other potential motives that we haven't really considered before.

If guilty, IMO etc.

 

[Anxala]

It’s definitely a reach but Never mind, obviously if guilty etc.

It's not so much that it's a reach, more that, as I said above, in the absence of knowing absolutely nothing about her mental health, we can only ever guess at who she actually is and what motivated and drove her.

As someone on the fence, I try to look, where I feel it's reasonable, for benign explanations. And there are perfectly reasonable benign explanations/interpretations imo of so many things here that seem to scream guilt to other people.

All that to say, until the end, we and all our opinions and speculations will remain at the mercy of just not knowing anywhere near enough about the LL that's on trial here.

 

[Sweeper2000]

It's not so much that it's a reach, more that, as I said above, in the absence of knowing absolutely nothing about her mental health, we can only ever guess at what motivated and drove her.

As someone on the fence, I try to look, where I feel it's reasonable, for benign explanations. And there are perfectly reasonable benign explanations/interpretations imo of so many things here that seem to scream guilt to other people.

We, until the end, will remain at the mercy of just not knowing the LL that's on trial.

true, balanced and well said.

 

[esther43]

It's not so much that it's a reach, more that, as I said above, in the absence of knowing absolutely nothing about her mental health, we can only ever guess at who she actually is, and what motivated and drove her.

As someone on the fence, I try to look, where I feel it's reasonable, for benign explanations. And there are perfectly reasonable benign explanations/interpretations imo of so many things here that seem to scream guilt to other people.

All that to say, we, until the end, and all our opinions and speculations will remain at the mercy of just not knowing enough about the LL that's on trial here.

What I've found interesting about the trial is unusual courses that the babies have taken so far. For me, some of the cases are indisputable foul play and not just the insulin ones.
That said I am open to hearing other possible explanations regarding who is responsible. I am now so curious to hear about how and when 257 handover sheets made their way into LLs home.
If Dr choc or JJK bought them would that make anybody think differently about this case?