UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #18

[Dotta]

"During her police interview, it was put to her Dr Ravi Jayaram had walked into the nursery and saw Ms Letby standing near Child K, whose oxygen levels had fallen dangerously low.

Ms Letby told police she "didn't recall" Child K's collapse, adding: "I didn't dislodge her tube."

"She said if she had noticed Child K's saturation levels she "would have summoned help".

I don't understand

I seem to remember she told Dr RJ she was waiting for the Baby to feel better or something like this, no?

So she must have known something was amiss.

Or maybe I got it wrong?

Lucy Letby trial: Accused nurse wanted to attend baby's funeral

Lucy Letby was asked by police about a condolence card she sent to the baby's family, a court hears.

www.bbc.com

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

@LadyEdgeworth i was wondering if you could give us your take on the notes with the baffling content please? not the post it note titled “not good enough“ though, that ones different.

Hi, sorry I’ve been on holiday! Which note please the one with red writing all over it to the A4 page?

 

[esther43]

I find it very strange. You don't 'know' newborns, certainly not if you aren't a parent or close relative. I can't imagine any other member of staff feeling like tnhs. It's another example of over-involvement in my view.

I spotted this too and also noted in the same convo LL referencing her training at LW as superior to what was going on at CoC. So it seems like a case of 'overidentification' followed by a dash of 'othering'

 

[Sweeper2000]

When asked about putting it in her diary she said because it was a significant event. Which suggests she wrote it at the time of the event, rather than writing it retrospectively when creating a timeline etc.

Yeh I think the instances of when she noted things in the diary at the time were presented as that case was presented. Then after suspension she went back and noted all the other ones in a different colour, although that’s still being debated.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Hi, sorry I’ve been on holiday! Which note please the one with red writing all over it to the A4 page?

Oooooh very nice. Anywhere away from here? Lol

yeh it’s the A4 note sheet with the ramblings and names on.
does it seem to you a mix of negative and positives with the names being a positive in her mind and a way of comforting herself? Seems that way to me.

 

[esther43]

"During her police interview, it was put to her Dr Ravi Jayaram had walked into the nursery and saw Ms Letby standing near Child K, whose oxygen levels had fallen dangerously low.

Ms Letby told police she "didn't recall" Child K's collapse, adding: "I didn't dislodge her tube."

"She said if she had noticed Child K's saturation levels she "would have summoned help".

I don't understand

I seem to remember she told Dr RJ she was waiting for the Baby to feel better or something like this, no?

So she must have known something was amiss.

Or maybe I got it wrong?

Lucy Letby trial: Accused nurse wanted to attend baby's funeral

Lucy Letby was asked by police about a condolence card she sent to the baby's family, a court hears.

www.bbc.com

I do find it a tad odd that she was waiting for this newborn 25 weeker to self correct. As I remember it with my 25weeker daughter the nurse is pretty much glued to the oxygen dial in those early weeks and wouldn't wait for a baby to self correct.
But equally we are talking about a timeframe of seconds.
Big desaturations are common in 25 weekers. It wouldn't be unusual for a baby of that gest to desat significantly, hence the real need for close 121 management and being 'glued to 02 dial'
Equally, the body language RJ described in this incident was damning. He claimed that she was looking at him face on, doing NOTHING. Followed by a dislodged breathing tube, not looking good. Will the defence argue RJ got it wrong, it was a medical procedure gone wrong and his word against hers in relation to how she was responding to the baby in that very small timeframe?

 

[Tortoise]

"Jurors were told on Tuesday how Letby cried as she told police of the “panic” in the neo natal unit when Child P suddenly deteriorated a day after the death of his brother.

Asked by police how she felt when Child P unexpectedly died, Letby broke down and said: “It was just devastating for us all and then to have them both … ” [...]

Philip Astbury, prosecuting, told the court that following their deaths, Letby messaged a colleague to say she was “worried in case there was a bug on the unit”. The nurse, originally from Hereford, denied in a police interview that she was trying to create an alternative explanation for the unexpected deaths in an attempt to deflect suspicion.

She told officers: “There had been discussions on the unit about whether there might be something wrong with the unit in itself, a bug or with the equipment, that might have affected the boys themselves.”

Lucy Letby cried when telling police about deaths of two triplets, court hears

Neonatal nurse in tears when being questioned about babies she allegedly murdered on return from holiday, jury told

www.theguardian.com

Dan's been at a different trial again...

 

[Dotta]

I do find it a tad odd that she was waiting for this newborn 25 weeker to self correct. As I remember it with my 25weeker daughter the nurse is pretty much glued to the oxygen dial in those early weeks and wouldn't wait for a baby to self correct.
But equally we are talking about a timeframe of seconds.
Big desaturations are common in 25 weekers. It wouldn't be unusual for a baby of that gest to desat significantly, hence the real need for close 121 management and being 'glued to 02 dial'
Equally, the body language RJ described in this incident was damning. He claimed that she was looking at him face on, doing NOTHING. Followed by a dislodged breathing tube, not looking good. Will the defence argue RJ got it wrong, it was a medical procedure gone wrong and his word against hers in relation to how she was responding to the baby in that very small timeframe?

I meant she said during Police interview that she didn't notice saturations low!

And "didn't recall Baby's collapse".

 

[DianaWW]

"Jurors were told on Tuesday how Letby cried as she told police of the “panic” in the neo natal unit when Child P suddenly deteriorated a day after the death of his brother.

Asked by police how she felt when Child P unexpectedly died, Letby broke down and said: “It was just devastating for us all and then to have them both … ” [...]

Philip Astbury, prosecuting, told the court that following their deaths, Letby messaged a colleague to say she was “worried in case there was a bug on the unit”. The nurse, originally from Hereford, denied in a police interview that she was trying to create an alternative explanation for the unexpected deaths in an attempt to deflect suspicion.

She told officers: “There had been discussions on the unit about whether there might be something wrong with the unit in itself, a bug or with the equipment, that might have affected the boys themselves.”

Lucy Letby cried when telling police about deaths of two triplets, court hears

Neonatal nurse in tears when being questioned about babies she allegedly murdered on return from holiday, jury told

www.theguardian.com

Dan's been at a different trial again...

I don’t remember the triplets parents saying that they asked her to dress and photograph the babies, I wonder if it’s true, or if she lied about that.

 

[Anxala]

I thought it was just a random pic of a cat as it doesn't look ginger and the info says Smudge is ginger and white. It looks like the paperwork you get when you insure a pet, with the info about name breed, colour, age, owner

I think @notsure was just having a little joke. Exactly as you say (and has been confirmed above by others), a generic cat on either petplan insurance or vet paperwork. I have similar from when I registered my dog at vets.

Although I still prefer the idea that it's Smudge saying 'Whoa, keep me out of this unholy mess'.

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

Oooooh very nice. Anywhere away from here? Lol

yeh it’s the A4 note sheet with the ramblings and names on.
does it seem to you a mix of negative and positives with the names being a positive in her mind and a way of comforting herself? Seems that way to me.

Ibiza (jk hahahah), Barcelona!

It’s a very strange note to me, it does in a way seem to be self soothing behaviour as in she at least started the note in a very manic state and it’s like pouring everything out of her head onto the page as a word salad. Very disorganised thinking and chaos to the point of writing over her own writing in another pen colour, which could mean it was done at a later time although I don’t know why. Writing the names of her cats on there might be a way to calm herself or try to have ‘positive’ thoughts.
It’s a very odd note to me, I’ve done CBT before (crap imo) and I don’t think these type of notes are following CBT therapy of ‘get the negative thoughts out on paper’ as you normally do get worksheets for that, or at least have to be written in an organised way you could read back to yourself. It’s like verbal diarrhoea, but on paper? I don’t think anyone in a good state of mind would write like that

 

[JosieJo]

Regarding LL'S explanation around her having the photo of what she had written in the sympathy card...I can honestly say I have never done that or been aware of anyone who does that "often" as LL said she did.

I wonder if there were any other cards of these birthdays on her phone

 

[DianaWW]

Lucy Letby took photo of card sent to parents of girl 'she killed'

Lucy Letby, 33, penned her message only a few hours before relatives gathered for the funeral of Baby I - an infant she allegedly killed in October, 2015, at the fourth attempt.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[marynnu]

I do find it a tad odd that she was waiting for this newborn 25 weeker to self correct. As I remember it with my 25weeker daughter the nurse is pretty much glued to the oxygen dial in those early weeks and wouldn't wait for a baby to self correct.
But equally we are talking about a timeframe of seconds.
Big desaturations are common in 25 weekers. It wouldn't be unusual for a baby of that gest to desat significantly, hence the real need for close 121 management and being 'glued to 02 dial'
Equally, the body language RJ described in this incident was damning. He claimed that she was looking at him face on, doing NOTHING. Followed by a dislodged breathing tube, not looking good. Will the defence argue RJ got it wrong, it was a medical procedure gone wrong and his word against hers in relation to how she was responding to the baby in that very small timeframe?

This trial must really resonate with you, hope you're OK. A few parents of preterm babies have posted on here, and I'm sure I speak for all of us when I tell you how much we appreciate your input. xx
Regarding this incident, as you say desats are very common in such tiny babies.
The most telling thing for me is the lack of chest movement - it's the first thing you look at. Problem is, as I think you are saying, LL could easily have just arrived at the incubator. I think it's just too close to call. JMO

 

[Dotta]

Problem is, as I think you are saying, LL could easily have just arrived at the incubator. I think it's just too close to call. JMO

Problem is, IMO, that the alarm didn't sound.

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

This trial must really resonate with you, hope you're OK. A few parents of preterm babies have posted on here, and I'm sure I speak for all of us when I tell you how much we appreciate your input. xx
Regarding this incident, as you say desats are very common in such tiny babies.
The most telling thing for me is the lack of chest movement - it's the first thing you look at. Problem is, as I think you are saying, LL could easily have just arrived at the incubator. I think it's just too close to call. JMO

That doesn't explain the alarm not going off.

"I had not been called to review [Child K], I had not been called because alarms had gone off - I would have heard an alarm. I got up and walked through to see [Child K]."
Dr Jayaram entered nursery room 1 through the entrance doors closest to his desk. Child K was at the far side of the nursery room, with Lucy Letby present.
He said: "I saw Lucy Letby standing by the incubator. I saw her, and looked up at the monitor, and K's saturations were dropping, in the 80s and continued to drop. The ventilator was not giving out an alarm.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, February 28

 

[marynnu]

That doesn't explain the alarm not going off.

"I had not been called to review [Child K], I had not been called because alarms had gone off - I would have heard an alarm. I got up and walked through to see [Child K]."
Dr Jayaram entered nursery room 1 through the entrance doors closest to his desk. Child K was at the far side of the nursery room, with Lucy Letby present.
He said: "I saw Lucy Letby standing by the incubator. I saw her, and looked up at the monitor, and K's saturations were dropping, in the 80s and continued to drop. The ventilator was not giving out an alarm.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, February 28

though

True, though switching off the alarm when attending to an emergency is the normal thing to do. It tells other people that someone has responded. There should have been an initial ping or two though, I agree.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Ibiza (jk hahahah), Barcelona!

It’s a very strange note to me, it does in a way seem to be self soothing behaviour as in she at least started the note in a very manic state and it’s like pouring everything out of her head onto the page as a word salad. Very disorganised thinking and chaos to the point of writing over her own writing in another pen colour, which could mean it was done at a later time although I don’t know why. Writing the names of her cats on there might be a way to calm herself or try to have ‘positive’ thoughts.
It’s a very odd note to me, I’ve done CBT before (crap imo) and I don’t think these type of notes are following CBT therapy of ‘get the negative thoughts out on paper’ as you normally do get worksheets for that, or at least have to be written in an organised way you could read back to yourself. It’s like verbal diarrhoea, but on paper? I don’t think anyone in a good state of mind would write like that

barcelona is one cool city. Loved that gothic church and the buildings. sorry to hear your back.

I thought exactly the same tbh. At first glance it was the way it really seemed like word salad to me and that proper freaked me out. took me a while but I started to see at least some sense in it though. Did think it was her own attempt at self soothing as well in her own way and wasn’t structured like you would expect with cbt. Do you think she’s had that before then? Or was just something she learned elsewhere. Isn’t a part of the cbt note approach that you can read it back in a way that makes sense so you can then finalise it and move on in a sense. Using the positives to cancel the negatives.

she comes across to me as someone who would get a bit overwhelmed when it comes to negative feelings ie neurotic explains the seeking of reassurance and the “good enough“ quotes. I think the good enough phrase is a reoccurring thing in her life. Maybe that’s why she has the repertoire of coping mechanisms, not someone who can shut it off but someone who feels it nd then deals with it after the fact. Think that would explain some of the oddness noted.

 

[Parker Knoll]

I notice the case is listen for mention tomorrow with defendant to attend …. What are they up to now I wonder ?

 

[esther43]

This trial must really resonate with you, hope you're OK. A few parents of preterm babies have posted on here, and I'm sure I speak for all of us when I tell you how much we appreciate your input. xx
Regarding this incident, as you say desats are very common in such tiny babies.
The most telling thing for me is the lack of chest movement - it's the first thing you look at. Problem is, as I think you are saying, LL could easily have just arrived at the incubator. I think it's just too close to call. JMO

Thank you. Others are saying about the monitor being silenced but tbh it would be normal for a nurse to silence the monitor whilst making clinical assessment and signal for further help as appropriate. The probability of a 25 weeker having major desats is pretty high IMO as they are just adjusting to this world and nurses and doctors are only just establishing what is normal for them, in their full medical context. Obviously babies who haven't had steroids and babies who have been born with infection will have these episodes but it was all very early on for child K, who was just acclimatising to the stark reality of being whipped out of a womb at 25wks. We are hardly expecting a stable sats pattern are we?!! Still, there's evidence in the dislodged breathing tube and LLs overall manner at the time of the alleged offence ..