UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #19

[IspyWithMyBigEye]

As for motive, have you ever considered

Factitious Disorder Imposed on Another (FDIA)​

I don’t think she had Munchausens’s Disorder by proxy, otherwise she’d have tried to save the babies to be seen as a hero.

 

[katydid23]

She's on trial for murder though and the prosecution have entered the searches as evidence against her as evidence to support their case of multiple murders.

I'm not expert but the huge number of searches along with all the other stuff like the notes she wrote and hoarding hand over sheets does seem to paint the picture of someone who has some significant obsessional disorder. Not that I'm an expert but I don't really see any rational explanation for it. I'm not convinced that any of that is evidence of murder, to be honest.

But let's not ignore the evidence of murder that was submitted. Those sudden collapses were , according to medical experts, done maliciously by attack. If those 22 charges of murder/attempted murder were done purposely, WHO could have done that?

Circumstances point towards Nurse Letby. Circumstances such as being in the immediate vicinity during ALL of the various incidents, in some cases being alone with the victims, or being there minutes before the collapse.

A few circumstances where someone walked in when the attacks were actually underway.

And so many unbelievable 'coincidences' ----like babies attacked the day before she goes on vacation----no babies while she was away collapsed----but on the very day she returns there are 3 attacks in 3 days.

All this other stuff, like FB searches and 257 handover sheets are just sprinkles on top of the icing on the cake. JMO

 

[katydid23]

I don’t think she had Munchausens’s Disorder by proxy, otherwise she’d have tried to save the babies to be seen as a hero.

She DID try to save them to be the hero. Many many times. She thrived on the praise she received for doing so.

Many babies were attacked multiple times, after being saved by HER in resuscitations.

 

[Tortoise]

"She went on to qualify to work with intensive care babies from March or April 2015, she told the court."

Neonatal nurse Lucy Letby, 33, gives evidence for the first time

Seven months on from the start of her trial at Manchester Crown Court, the 33-year-old entered the witness box on Tuesday to give evidence for the first time.

www.dailymail.co.uk

"In May 2015 there was a course for medicine administration via a bolus at the hospital, where - under supervision from a doctor - nurses would be able to administer medication via a long line.
She said it was "different", and a "lot more risk", and said she was "competent" having done that training."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, April 27

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Two pieces of evidence we've learned over the past week.

It appears that LL had no opportunity to do what she is accused of doing, unsupervised, prior to June 2015.

 

[JamesMcGillEsquire]

But let's not ignore the evidence of murder that was submitted. Those sudden collapses were , according to medical experts, done maliciously by attack. If those 22 charges of murder/attempted murder were done purposely, WHO could have done that?

Circumstances point towards Nurse Letby. Circumstances such as being in the immediate vicinity during ALL of the various incidents, in some cases being alone with the victims, or being there minutes before the collapse.

A few circumstances where someone walked in when the attacks were actually underway.

And so many unbelievable 'coincidences' ----like babies attacked the day before she goes on vacation----no babies while she was away collapsed----but on the very day she returns there are 3 attacks in 3 days.

All this other stuff, like FB searches and 257 handover sheets are just sprinkles on top of the icing on the cake. JMO

With all respect to yourself, I think where you are getting it wrong, from a judicial point of view, is that claiming circumstances like no babies collapsing during her vacation is evidence that Ms Letby physically attacked babies.

If we are to look at this with a truly open mind, then if there is some unkown explanation as to why these collapses happened, then were we to know all the answers we might understand whether or not there was a reason why there were no collapses when Ms. Letby was on holiday.

However, we don't have the answers so we are left guessing.

The absence of unexplained collapses whilst Ms. Letby was away, does not, of itself, implicate Ms. Letby in the collapses that did happen whilst she was on shift, and that's a fine line worth appreciating.

Just because something cannot be explained does not equate to any inferred guilt of any party, accused or otherwise.

Simply put, we can't just say that because it doesnt make sense it must be XYZ. We either make it make sense, or we hold our hands up and admit we genuinely can't be sure.

 

[Sweeper2000]

"She went on to qualify to work with intensive care babies from March or April 2015, she told the court."

Neonatal nurse Lucy Letby, 33, gives evidence for the first time

Seven months on from the start of her trial at Manchester Crown Court, the 33-year-old entered the witness box on Tuesday to give evidence for the first time.

www.dailymail.co.uk

"In May 2015 there was a course for medicine administration via a bolus at the hospital, where - under supervision from a doctor - nurses would be able to administer medication via a long line.
She said it was "different", and a "lot more risk", and said she was "competent" having done that training."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, April 27

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Two pieces of evidence we've learned over the past week.

It appears that LL had no opportunity to do what she is accused of doing, unsupervised, prior to June 2015.

so she wasn’t feeding babies prior to 2015?

eta. Feeding babies in any rooms other than 1 and 2?

 

[JosieJo]

Well, when you put it like that..

But as I say, the closest we have to a smoking gun is the sheer totality of coincedences surrounding Ms. Letby and the babies collapsing. There is nothing directly linking Ms. Letby and the circumstances outlined in your post.

And to answer your question, most murder trials there is a clear motive, the accused often has a propensity for violence, there is often witness testimony to suggest an attack was imminent, there can be witness testimony of words spoken by an attacker about the attack, there is often CCTV evidence that places the accused nearby the crime scene, or en route to and from the burial site, there is often forensic evidence implicating the accused that goes far beyond a few Facebook searches.

Here we have nothing concrete. We have Ms Letby supposedly being odd and going salsa dancing. Big deal.

Personally I disagree ..there's much more than her oddities here

 

[IspyWithMyBigEye]

This is just MOO and I may be wrong, but if LL is found guilty I wonder if one of the reasons she killed so many babies (as is alleged), if a big part of her motive wasn’t just to take the life of the baby but to cause horrific pain and heartbreak to the parents’? I’ve read where she searched the parents’ Facebook the same day if the baby’s death, one year later on the anniversary of their baby’s death, and even searched the parent’s on Christmas Day. To me, and it’s just MOO, but I can imagine a sadist doing doing that, hoping to see posts where the mum and dad are talking about their grief at such a painful time when it should be a time of happiness. Sadists gloat at other peoples pain and misery - and because she doesn’t look like an ogre some people get sucked in by that.

I also found the sympathy card she sent to one couple sickly and inappropriate. Then when she was smiling as she bathed the dead little baby while his parents were grief stricken she told them (still smiling) how she had wonderful memories of bathing him when he was alive and how sweet he was.

IMO they’re the actions of a sadistic psychopath.

Yes, if she has killed these babies on purpose she’s bound to be manipulative to the jury and put on a sugary sweet persona, but they’ll see through that.

 

[JamesMcGillEsquire]

This is just MOO and I may be wrong, but if LL is found guilty I wonder if one of the reasons she killed so many babies (as is alleged), if a big part of her motive wasn’t just to take the life of the baby but to cause horrific pain and heartbreak to the parents’? I’ve read where she searched the parents’ Facebook the same day if the baby’s death, one year later on the anniversary of their baby’s death, and even searched the parent’s on Christmas Day. To me, and it’s just MOO, but I can imagine a sadist doing doing that, hoping to see posts where the mum and dad are talking about their grief at such a painful time when it should be a time of happiness. Sadists gloat at other peoples pain and misery - and because she doesn’t look like an ogre some people get sucked in by that.

I also found the sympathy card she sent to one couple sickly and inappropriate. Then when she was smiling as she bathed the dead little baby while his parents were grief stricken she told them (still smiling) how she had wonderful memories of bathing him when he was alive and how sweet he was.

IMO they’re the actions of a sadistic psychopath.

Yes, if she has killed these babies on purpose she’s bound to be manipulative to the jury and put on a sugary sweet persona, but they’ll see through that.

This is pure speculation and has no place in jury deliberations, JMO.

 

[JosieJo]

I often wonder if similar evidence in a different situation would be viewed in the same way...

Imagine 22 young women 10 killed 12 attacked and left for dead ...

The women all used a dating app and only one person had contacted all of them

This person amongst lots of other searches searched many of the women on Facebook

This person had taken a photo of 2 of the women's online conversations and kept them on their phone

 

[katydid23]

Would you not describe someone that has been subjected to wrongful arrest, as the victim of wrongful arrest? Just curious

Given the circumstances surrounding her it would have been wrong not to arrest her. JMO

 

[IspyWithMyBigEye]

But let's not ignore the evidence of murder that was submitted. Those sudden collapses were , according to medical experts, done maliciously by attack. If those 22 charges of murder/attempted murder were done purposely, WHO could have done that?

Circumstances point towards Nurse Letby. Circumstances such as being in the immediate vicinity during ALL of the various incidents, in some cases being alone with the victims, or being there minutes before the collapse.

A few circumstances where someone walked in when the attacks were actually underway.

And so many unbelievable 'coincidences' ----like babies attacked the day before she goes on vacation----no babies while she was away collapsed----but on the very day she returns there are 3 attacks in 3 days.

All this other stuff, like FB searches and 257 handover sheets are just sprinkles on top of the icing on the cake. JMO

Well said, Katy.

The evidence is overwhelming that only one person could have administered those drugs to the babies.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Given the circumstances surrounding her it would have been wrong not to arrest her. JMO

An investigation at least.

 

[WaxLyrical]

"She went on to qualify to work with intensive care babies from March or April 2015, she told the court."

Neonatal nurse Lucy Letby, 33, gives evidence for the first time

Seven months on from the start of her trial at Manchester Crown Court, the 33-year-old entered the witness box on Tuesday to give evidence for the first time.

www.dailymail.co.uk

"In May 2015 there was a course for medicine administration via a bolus at the hospital, where - under supervision from a doctor - nurses would be able to administer medication via a long line.
She said it was "different", and a "lot more risk", and said she was "competent" having done that training."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, April 27

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Two pieces of evidence we've learned over the past week.

It appears that LL had no opportunity to do what she is accused of doing, unsupervised, prior to June 2015.

If guilty, this makes the hospital look even worse than it did already in allowing this to go on as long as it did, considering she was “new” to intensive care. JMO.

 

[IspyWithMyBigEye]

How many murder trials have you heard of where the defendant was actually seen doing the deed?


These were not just babies that collapsed ...they collapsed because of foul play ...LL was the only person around all the babies...by far .. no one else came near in being there.

Someone added insulin into fluids that should not have insulin in ...again LL was the only person there for both ...aswell as the other 20 counts.

A mother found LL standing doing nothing while her baby screamed with blood around their mouth .. LL did not tell the Dr about this for another 50 min and documents the event at a totally different time to which it occured

She keeps a photo of a bereavement card she sent

She documents babies deaths in her diary

Staff and families report her being odd in their bereavement care

I think that is certainly not nothing...jmo

Excellent points, Josie.

Especially the sympathy card: I wonder if she can produce pictures of greeting/sympathy cards she’s sent to anyone else? IMO I bet she can’t.

It’s a souvenir.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I often wonder if similar evidence in a different situation would be viewed in the same way...

Imagine 22 young women 10 killed 12 attacked and left for dead ...

The women all used a dating app and only one person had contacted all of them

This person amongst lots of other searches searched many of the women on Facebook

This person had taken a photo of 2 of the women's online conversations and kept them on their phone

Are these 22 women completely unexpected to ever have encountered this individual within a professional setting?

 

[katydid23]

You only need to spend a few seconds on someone’s fb profile to see all the most recent posts. If she is just mildly curious just looking at the most recent post would satiate that curiosity. I would be much much more concerned if she spent a long time scrolling through every picture and every friend on that profile. In a phrase “just touching base” “ just checking In”.

In a phrase “just touching base” “ just checking In”.

But is she supposed to be 'checking in' with past patient's grieving families? Do they want her to check in or touch base with them?

 

[Cluedoneit]

Serial killers often do what they do for inexplicable reasons to the average person. It’s why the FBI commissioned the study by Ressler, Burgess and Douglas in the first place. If guilty Letby’s motive could be attention, feeling superior and wanting to show it or due to her relationship with her parents ( hence the cluster of attacks after holidays with her parents).
The fact is that the jury and we don’t need a motive as we aren’t in her head and even if we had cctv of her harming babies we still wouldn’t know why. What we do know is that in the opinion of 2 experts (and 1 who died) as well as a coroner these babies were all harmed by someone, not something such as a virus. What Letby has to say doesn’t matter, what matters is if the defence can provide their own equally qualified experts to provide opposing reasons why each baby was harmed, or can discredit the opinions of each expert to introduce reasonable doubt.

 

[Sweeper2000]

In a phrase “just touching base” “ just checking In”.

But is she supposed to be 'checking in' with past patient's grieving families? Do they want her to check in or touch base with them?

Definitely not supposed to be but that dosent mean it’s unusual for her as an individual. I don’t know about the families, you would have to ask them. If they posted something in a publicly available way on a platform like fb one might think they don’t mind all that much.

 

[Sundial]

Well, when you put it like that..

But as I say, the closest we have to a smoking gun is the sheer totality of coincedences surrounding Ms. Letby and the babies collapsing. There is nothing directly linking Ms. Letby and the circumstances outlined in your post.

And to answer your question, most murder trials there is a clear motive, the accused often has a propensity for violence, there is often witness testimony to suggest an attack was imminent, there can be witness testimony of words spoken by an attacker about the attack, there is often CCTV evidence that places the accused nearby the crime scene, or en route to and from the burial site, there is often forensic evidence implicating the accused that goes far beyond a few Facebook searches.

Here we have nothing concrete. We have Ms Letby supposedly being odd and going salsa dancing. Big deal.

A mother walked in where the accused was stood doing next to her screaming child with blood round it’s mouth.

There are other reports of these babies screaming.

I’d say some of the parents and colleagues statements are more than a big deal. I’m sure the mother of the child who was astonished at the suggestion made by the accused to put her baby in a basket who was not yet dead would also disagree with this.
Moo