UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #20

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  • #421
This is part of the mother's of E's witness statement. BBM below - the mother would have also had to make up the explanation for why there was blood - doesn't that seem fairly technical and detailed for a lie? And it can't have been another nurse as the defendant accepts she was with the baby as designated nurse the entire time. Mum would also have had to made up this entire narrative below, which is all evidenced by the phone call to her husband. Given it was an ICU ward (and we've seen how tiny they are), it makes sense no one else was around as it was a restricted area and LL was one of the only ICU qualified nurses.

She said she went up to the post-natal ward to express breast milk and have something to eat, 'between 7pm and 8.30pm'.

She then took the expressed breast milk "straight down" to the neonatal unit where her twins were.

She said she arrived there "a touch before nine o'clock."

The mother had drawn a plan of the neonatal unit layout, as she remembered it, to police. That is now shown to the court.

She tells the court she had gone into room 1, where the twins were, as was Lucy Letby, the only other adult in the room beside the mum.

She said she could her her son crying and it was "like nothing I'd ever heard before".

The mum walked to the incubator, to see blood coming out of Child E's mouth, and panicked as she "believed that something was wrong".

The mum, fighting back tears, tells the court which incubators her twins were located in - both in adjoining ones.

She said she heard "crying" - a sound which "shouldn't have come from a tiny baby. I can't explain what that sound was...horrendous. It was screaming more than crying."

She said she heard it in the corridor in the unit itself, and entered the unit through the door where the twins were.

Lucy Letby was "busy doing something, but she wasn't near [Child E]."

She said she immediately went to Child E and used a 'containment technique' which she had been taught, to make him feel calmer, but "it didn't work".

Child E "continued to make the same noise".

She said she was there for "about 10 minutes" in that room.

She said: "There was blood on his face, around his mouth."

She tells the court she was asked by police to draw, on a drawing of a child's face, where the blood was coming from.

She tells the court the blood was coming "around the mouth"
Lucy Letby was at the workstation at the time, the mum tells the court.

A video of the neonatal unit room one is shown to the court.

The mum, fighting back tears, tells the court which incubators her twins were located in - both in adjoining ones.
he mum said she asked Lucy Letby why Child E was bleeding and what was wrong.

She said Letby replied the feeding tube was rubbing the back of the throat and that would have caused the blood.


The mum said she accepted that explanation, but was concerned about it.

The mum said Letby "told her to go back to the ward", and she did what she was told as Letby "was in authority and knew better than me and I trusted her - completely."

"She said the registrar was on his way and if there was a problem, someone would ring up to the post-natal ward."

She said she accepted that explanation and returned to the post-natal ward.

Upon her return, she rang her husband as "she knew there was something very wrong".

"I knew I needed to speak to him, and tell him."

The court hears the telephone records, including timings, were obtained.


The call to her husband was made at 9.11pm, and lasted 4 minutes and 25 seconds.

She said she rang her husband about her concerns, and remained on the post-natal ward.
Why would LL want the baby’s mum out of the room when all parents were welcome there 24/7? That in itself is highly suspicious. And phone records prove the mum’s account of what happened.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again - IMO Ll (if she’s guilty) was more focused on causing heartache to the parents’. That’s why she trolled them afterwards on Facebook - she wanted to see their grief.

JMO, of course, but having qualified in psychology - and having a keen eye to read people - IMO LL displays all the characteristics of someone who enjoys watching suffering.

Why, when the baby was bleeding from his mouth and his mum was in distress would LL tell her to go back to her ward? His mum would have been in panic and wanted to be near him and wait for the doctor to come along to reassure her that her baby wasn’t in danger. LL forced his mum to leave and to go - so ask yourself why she’d do that if according to her the bleeding was of no significance?
 
  • #422
Would you expect the mother in this instance to want to be more helpful to the prosecution, or the defence?

<modsnip - not victim friendly>

Totally understandable, I have no problem with it and all the sympathy in the world for the parents in this case. However, in a court of law, up until victim impact statements are to be read for sentencing, feelings shouldn't come into it.
Why do you think she is helping any side, and not just giving her true account to police?

Do you think they said to her be aware before you give us your statement that the nurse said you came down at 10pm, and he wasn't screaming and he wasn't bleeding at 9pm? Before they even knew that's what the mother was going to say? It wasn't in LL's notes, so how would the police know the mother had a very different account to give? Even Dr Evans didn't know about the mother's account when he did his report.
 
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  • #423
Okay so I haven't had a baby in a neonatal unit, but I have had a baby and been on a postnatal ward. I was given my own pumping machine, to use whenever I liked. I don't think there would be any case of needing permission to visit your baby in NICU, LL herself has testified that the policy was that parents could visit whenever they like. you would not need to be given an all clear to visit. Newborn babies are usually expected to be fed every 2 hours. From the evidence we have heard, that feed was due at 9pm. The mother would make her own way there freely, she wouldn't need permission. Midwives are busy people and would not be monitoring where mothers went and at what times. As we've heard, there was no swipe card needed to enter NICU if you were coming from the maternity ward.

I think it's well established in psychological/neuroscience research that people remember what is most salient to them. Most important. Now no one's memory is 100% accurate, as memory is a fallible thing. However seeing your baby with blood around their mouth and screaming is not something someone would forget. Ever. Plus the phone records confirm her account, and her husband said she was inconsolable on the phone about the blood and screaming.
Also worth bearing in mind is how exhausted the mother would have been. She would have undoubtedly been sleep deprived at this point, probably in pain, possiby even in agony.
What the mother would have been going through would have likely been traumatic and psychologically devastating.

None of the above is conducive to forming crystal clear, reliable memories.
 
  • #424
Why do you think she is helping any side, and not just giving her true account to police?

Do you think they said to her be aware before you give us your statement that the nurse said you came down at 10pm, and he wasn't screaming and he wasn't bleeding at 9pm? Before they even knew that's what the mother was going to say? It wasn't in LL's notes, so how would the police know the mother had a very different account to give? Even Dr Evans didn't know about the mother's account when he did his report.
Well you havent answered my question but that's okay, I'll still answer yours..

I think the parents would likely want to help secure a conviction. That is most probably what anyone in their position would try to do.

It isn't necessarily about the initial statement, it is about the probability of whether or not the mother mistakenly believes the timing she has given. It seems likely that, assuming the mother got the timings wrong, that she honestly believes what she is saying is correct and will stand firm on that indefinitely.
If, on the other hand, the mother is actually correct, Ms Letby is lying, and there was blood around the mouth just after 9pm then there really is no way of factually backing that up. So it really comes down to one person's word against another's.
 
  • #425
The feeds aren't necessarily as strictly scheduled as I think you think they might be.
More a guideline than any absolute need to a feed at any exact time.

JMO

You have clearly never experienced breast feeding and “ let down “
It waits for no one.
 
  • #426
  • #427
for some reason I doubt that ll has the level of foresight needed to alter the documents neccesa for her to escape the consequences. As an example not getting rid of the handover notes, the damned note, marks in her diary etc
Good point, Sweeper.

Although LL passed her exams, going by her age she took time to get through them. She’s 33 now, so was in her late 20s by the time she qualified as an ICU nurse. I know some people can take time to qualify, but considering how conscientious and devoted she said she was, it’s surprising she didn’t qualify sooner.

Another thing that seems strange to me is how she had her home decorated like that of a teenager - rather than a woman turned 30.

It’s also noticeable that although she enjoyed a social life with her colleagues she didn’t appear to have any real close friends. I could be wrong, and maybe she did have close friends , but there’s no mention of them - which makes one wonder if she tagged along with groups and colleagues but they never became close to her. JMO, of course, and I could be wrong, but there seems to be no mention of best friends or relationships she’s had with boyfriends. And at 30 you’ve usually had serious relationships….she’s quite a mystery.
 
  • #428
Just posting some of the mother's witness statement here which speaks to her state of mind and to put into context this was a woman preparing to go home with her babies. So I think she'd remember very clearly if they were bleeding or screaming unexpectedly. MOO


"She said Child E was progressing better, of the two twins, over July 30-31, but both were doing "really well" by August 1.

She says she was keen to get home and was keen to transport both babies to a hospital closer to home, and was waiting for two ambulances to be provided.

She said she and her partner were under the impression both babies were well enough to travel.

By that stage, she had had skin-to-skin contact with both twins, and both were managing "fine".

"We were never informed about anything to say they weren't fine."

By August 2, the couple were still waiting for transport.

She said on that day, the twins were both out of their incubators by this stage.

Child E was breathing "easily" and Child F was "great".

She says she does not remember any specific conversation about insulin production for the twins, but remembers it being mentioned, and that it was 'normal' for premature babies.

By August 3, she said the twins were "great - doing really well".

"We were absolutely thrilled that both boys were doing so well and we couldn't have asked for any more than that. They were both progressing."

The father was commuting to and from the hospital at this time, and on August 3 he had gone home to "prepare the house" as it was "imminent" that the babies were going to be transferred to another hospital and she would be able to go home.

She said he left the hospital at about 5pm. At that time, she was "having skin-to-skin contact" with Child E, which ended at "half past 6ish".

She changed his nappy and had cleaned him, around the eyes and neck.

She said she was still "sore and sensitive" but "over the moon" as her two boys were "perfect".

She said she went up to the post-natal ward to express breast milk and have something to eat, 'between 7pm and 8.30pm'."


Statement from the father. He would have had his statement taken separately.

"He confirms he had gone home on the evening of August 3, and then received a phone call from his wife that night.

He tells the court the phone call he received from his wife at 9.11pm, who was "upset and very worried" about the bleeding from the baby's mouth.

He said he was sure the medical staff knew what they were doing, and she was panicking over nothing."


Statement from midwife

Her 'midwife notes' are presented to the court, showing the mum of Child E was 'post-natal well', and one of the twins had 'deteriorated slightly'.
 
  • #429
As for not getting rid of the handover notes etc from home, that could also be because she never expected the police to search her house, or they were souvenirs.
MOO

I think her whole testimony about the shock of the police turning up and how she wasn't even allowed to get changed out of her PJs and how she says she now suffers from PTSD as a result of it... is proof that she really wasn't expecting the police to turn up unanounced to arrest her and search her home without prior warning .. which if guilty, would explain why she still had all the handover notes and post it notes there!

JMO, if guilty etc
 
  • #430
There’s another nurse who says that LL was with her attending to a different baby at the time and that they were both called to assist with child C

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That isn’t something you couldn’t remember…
 
  • #431
  • #432
So in the defences case there have been no medical experts presented by mr Myers does that then mean they don’t or won’t have any?
They may have some. Personally i'm not expecting them to bring the relevent experts. By that I mean people who have broad range knowledge similar to the neonatologists, professors of radiology and so fourth.. medicine is a shared language after all.
 
  • #433
The feeds aren't necessarily as strictly scheduled as I think you think they might be.
More a guideline than any absolute need to a feed at any exact time.

JMO

What do you mean by guideline? 2 hourly feeds are exactly that. Obviously in practice can be a few minutes either side, but the schedule is not flexible.
 
  • #434
Would you expect the mother in this instance to want to be more helpful to the prosecution, or the defence?
<modsnip>

Totally understandable, I have no problem with it and all the sympathy in the world for the parents in this case. However, in a court of law, up until victim impact statements are to be read for sentencing, feelings shouldn't come into it.

JMO

Except in this case there is evidence to back up her version

The feed based on the previous feed was due at 9pm

LL herself wrote she omitted the feed ...at 9pm

The phone records show a call a 9.11pm

To be honest if my baby had died I'd want the truth ..nothing more
 
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  • #435
Good point, Sweeper.

Although LL passed her exams, going by her age she took time to get through them. She’s 33 now, so was in her late 20s by the time she qualified as an ICU nurse. I know some people can take time to qualify, but considering how conscientious and devoted she said she was, it’s surprising she didn’t qualify sooner.

Another thing that seems strange to me is how she had her home decorated like that of a teenager - rather than a woman turned 30.

It’s also noticeable that although she enjoyed a social life with her colleagues she didn’t appear to have any real close friends. I could be wrong, and maybe she did have close friends , but there’s no mention of them - which makes one wonder if she tagged along with groups and colleagues but they never became close to her. JMO, of course, and I could be wrong, but there seems to be no mention of best friends or relationships she’s had with boyfriends. And at 30 you’ve usually had serious relationships….she’s quite a mystery.

She qualified aged 21 or so and completed the neonatal course around 3 years later. Nothing remarkable about that.
 
  • #436
What do you mean by guideline? 2 hourly feeds are exactly that. Obviously in practice can be a few minutes either side, but the schedule is not flexible.
This is my point, in practice it can be a few minutes later. So by definition, not exact.
 
  • #437
I wrote immediately upon reading that note that the end of that particular sentence was a reference to her capacity as a nurse. “Not good enough to care for them” can be seen as a reference to her capacity as a nurse and literally evepry bit of the evidence suggests that to be the case highlighting her text to doc choc close to the time of suspension. Something like ”was I good enough/ did I miss something“. I believe her when she said she wrote it ie the date and as all surrounding evidence and coms suggest it to be the case. I also said interpretation of the writing would be difficult but to ascertain it’s truth one would have to look at surrounding evidence and circumstance and it all points to her questioning her capacity as a nurse. Imo
It was all “pity me”.

In her frantic state of writing she didn’t realise she slipped up as she was too busy trying to make herself look like a victim…

But she didn’t forget to log things such as “ if police question me they can’t prove it - it’s all hearsay as they have no evidence” They aren’t the exact words she wrote as I don’t have them in front of me, but that’s what she alluded to.

Why would an innocent person even think such things…
 
  • #438
Well you havent answered my question but that's okay, I'll still answer yours..
If it wasn't clear, my answer is I don't believe the mother wants to be more helpful to the prosecution or the defence, I don't think she was even aware there was a version that wiped what she experienced/witnessed out of the records, I think she just wants to state the truth about what happened.

If the accused has a different version that's not her business, it's the jury's.

JMO
 
  • #439
  • #440
This is my point, in practice it can be a few minutes later. So by definition, not exact.
Not an hour earlier or later like the defendant suggests.....And yes, the mother did show up a few minutes earlier than 9. But she was present at 9 because that's when the feed was scheduled and had no reason to be late.
 
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