UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #20

[Powermjp]

From my opinion the whole crying thing, it's probably best not to cry at all for a defendant, especially in a case for murder.

Because once they cry people/the jury will be questioning why they cried at one point and not another. (Like we are seeing here) crying can be a way to gain sympathy and manipulate, the jury will be very guarded against it.

So now we see her crying over her room her teddies etc, and now people are wondering about that reaction.

Or she's crying about her supposed PTSD, the doctor giving evidence, can't remember all the times she's cried but it's always about herself, which is fine to feel sorry for herself, but to cry in court like It said can be trying to get some sort of sympathy from the people watching.

If I'm on the jury I'd probably have little sympathy for the crying. It's probably having the opposite affect.

May sound harsh but I imagine the jury just want to hear the evidence, not to feel sorry for someone who may be a murderer of babies.

 

[Xanadu62]

Not sure of the day but was a week after baby q. Late July 2016 if my memory serves.

She wasn't suspended till after her first arrest in July 2018.

She was redeployed in July 2016 to an admin role - not the same as a suspension. She was told this redeployment was due to the increased mortality, and meant her and others needing to re-do competencies. It was only in Sept 2016 she was informed about her association with the deaths. The infamous green note was written in July 2016.

I do think at this stage of the trial, facts are more relevant than purely philosophical debate (though of course that too has its place.)

 

[WaxLyrical]

The testimony suggests she doubted herself as a reaction to what the docs said. It’s reasonable, whether it’s true or not ?

Speaking as someone with OCD, I find it reasonable that intrusive thoughts would go there. Intrusive thoughts are, generally speaking, your brain presenting you with your worst fears. Because we are slaves to our brains and can’t control our thoughts, the thoughts then become “I must be having these thoughts because they are true”. For anyone who doesn’t suffer from this, it’s difficult to imagine.

You hear it fairly regularly with new mothers who say they are having thoughts of harming or killing their babies. Even when they know they would never do anything to harm their child, they begin to wonder “maybe I will do it, maybe I can’t trust myself, why else am I thinking this way”.

I have basically paid zero attention to anything written by Letby, including things like “I’m evil”. I think all they are evidence of is an anguished mind. Irrespective of guilt. JMO.

 

[Dotta]

The way I see it

her taking the stand is becoming a total disaster for the Defence

Oh dear!
Too bad.

JMO

 

[Powermjp]

Speaking as someone with OCD, I find it reasonable that intrusive thoughts would go there. Intrusive thoughts are, generally speaking, your brain presenting you with your worst fears. Because we are slaves to our brains and can’t control our thoughts, the thoughts then become “I must be having these thoughts because they are true”. For anyone who doesn’t suffer from this, it’s difficult to imagine.

You hear it fairly regularly with new mothers who say they are having thoughts of harming or killing their babies. Even when they know they would never do anything to harm their child, they begin to wonder “maybe I will do it, maybe I can’t trust myself, why else am I thinking this way”.

I have basically paid zero attention to anything written by Letby, including things like “I’m evil”. I think all they are evidence of is an anguished mind. Irrespective of guilt. JMO.

Has Lucy letby been diagnosed with OCD?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe that's the case. So I don't think we can use the thought patterns of someone with OCD and use that to excuse her.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Has Lucy letby been diagnosed with OCD?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe that's the case. So I don't think we can use the thought patterns of someone with OCD and use that to excuse her.

No one is excusing her. They are saying that they can see possible reasons for what she's written.

 

[WaxLyrical]

Has Lucy letby been diagnosed with OCD?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe that's the case. So I don't think we can use the thought patterns of someone with OCD and use that to excuse her.

No, not that we’re aware of.

I was explaining how intrusive thoughts manifest and why I don’t personally find her explanation of why she wrote what she did to be outlandish, and can’t therefore dismiss them as ridiculous.

 

[Sweeper2000]

She wasn't suspended till after her first arrest in July 2018.

She was redeployed in July 2016 to an admin role - not the same as a suspension. She was told this redeployment was due to the increased mortality, and meant her and others needing to re-do competencies. It was only in Sept 2016 she was informed about her association with the deaths. The infamous green note was written in July 2016.

I do think at this stage of the trial, facts are more relevant than purely philosophical debate (though of course that too has its place.)

Her testimony is that it was the suspension from clinical duties onto clerical that made her self doubt. in her own words she hated the desk job.

 

[Xanadu62]

Her testimony is that it was the suspension from clinical duties onto clerical that made her self doubt. in her own words she hated the desk job.

Can you link where she's used the words "suspension from clinical duties onto clerical" in relation to July 2016 please? My memory tells me she used the word "redeployed".

Not at all the same thing as suspension. She complained that they made it seem like it was a voluntary move. Suspension is never voluntary...

She may have hated the desk job, so do plenty of other people - doesn't make it a suspension.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Speaking as someone with OCD, I find it reasonable that intrusive thoughts would go there. Intrusive thoughts are, generally speaking, your brain presenting you with your worst fears. Because we are slaves to our brains and can’t control our thoughts, the thoughts then become “I must be having these thoughts because they are true”. For anyone who doesn’t suffer from this, it’s difficult to imagine.

You hear it fairly regularly with new mothers who say they are having thoughts of harming or killing their babies. Even when they know they would never do anything to harm their child, they begin to wonder “maybe I will do it, maybe I can’t trust myself, why else am I thinking this way”.

I have basically paid zero attention to anything written by Letby, including things like “I’m evil”. I think all they are evidence of is an anguished mind. Irrespective of guilt. JMO.

its Very reasonable, ocd is an anxiety amplification, self doubt and anxiety would be a reasonable response if innocent. Yet to hear anyth To suggest her response wasn’t expected or in line with an individual who is unaware.

 

[Powermjp]

No, not that we’re aware of.

I was explaining how intrusive thoughts manifest and why I don’t personally find her explanation of why she wrote what she did to be outlandish, and can’t therefore dismiss them as ridiculous.

Yes but the OCD point is irrelevant, I have family members with the exact intrusive thoughts like you described and it's completely different to non OCD people, and it can't be used on LL. Hence it's a diagnosis.

She may have been depressed or feeling down and put everything on her mind, which lots of people do, but this is completely different to OCD and intrusive thoughts. We have her own reasons for writing the note, you don't need to expand into using intrusive thoughts or OCD. This is just not the case.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Suspension from clinical duties is the same as redeployment. imo. It’s not a technical term.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Yes but the OCD point is irrelevant, I have family members with the exact intrusive thoughts like you described and it's completely different to non OCD people, and it can't be used on LL.

She may have been depressed or feeling down and put everything on her mind, which lots of people do, but this is completely different to OCD and intrusive thoughts.

Everyone gets intrusive thoughts. Especially when anxious.

 

[Powermjp]

Everyone gets intrusive thoughts. Especially when anxious.

Yes I know, but it's completely different to people with OCD, you can't compare.

Everyone has normal worries and anxiety, you may call them intrusive, but it's not on the level as someone with OCD, which is the bar I was using.

I really don't like bringing in medical diagnosis with no basis. Why not just stick to the facts.

 

[Xanadu62]

Suspension from clinical duties is the same as redeployment. imo. It’s not a technical term.

I think any HR/union rep will disagree with you. Suspension is a technical term that has implication for practice, and pay especially in nursing. It would involve tribunals and the NMC - none of which she went through in july 2016, until her arrest in 2018.

If you can find a source where you have seen her "redeployment" described as "suspension", then do share. Otherwise it's best to stick with the facts.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Yes but it's completely different to people with OCD, you can't compare.

Everyone has normal worries and anxiety, you may call them intrusive, but it's not on the level as someone with OCD, which is the bar I was using.

I really don't like bringing in medical diagnosis with no basis.

I don’t think anhone is suggesting ocd as a diagnosis, only that an aspect of it is relatable in experience and not unreasonable for an individual to experience in the relevant situation.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I think any HR/union rep will disagree with you. Suspension is a technical term that has implication for practice, and pay especially in nursing. It would involve tribunals and the NMC - none of which she went through in july 2016, until her arrest in 2018.

If you can find a source where you have seen her "redeployment" described as "suspension", then do share. Otherwise it's best to stick with the facts.

Was she suspended from clinical duties In July 2016? Obviously yes.

 

[Powermjp]

I don’t think anhone is suggesting ocd as a diagnosis, only that an aspect of it is relatable in experience and not unreasonable for an individual to experience in the relevant situation.

Yeah again, let's not attribute aspects of diagnosis, I'm not sure that's a good direction. You may find it relatable but it's not the same thing.

I am bringing this up because they then used OCD as a way to call the note ridiculous.

Citing all the ways people with OCD have worries and intrusive thoughts about hurting people, which is totally true (they actually are way less likely to do harm). But to use that to defend LL is something I disagree with.

Keep medical things out of it.

 

[Xanadu62]

Was she suspended from clinical duties In July 2016? Obviously yes.

No, she very obviously wasn't. She was temporarily seconded to another team - that's not being suspended. They were very very careful to not use those words in the description of what was happening exactly because of what it means.

If she had been suspended from clinical duties, she would have had to go to a tribunal/NMC - it's really not more complicated than that. Sorry, your use of the word suspension is just incorrect here. It is a technical term when you are using it in context of someone's job.

 

[Xanadu62]

Deciding whether to suspend someone: Suspension during an investigation at work - Acas

Suspensions during an investigation for a disciplinary or grievance procedure.

www.acas.org.uk

Look at the section "alternatives to suspension" - that should explain why a secondment is NOT a suspension.