UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #20

[Sweeper2000]

Yeah again, let's not attribute aspects of diagnosis, I'm not sure that's a good direction.

Because actually they then used OCD as a way to call the note ridiculous. Citing all the ways people with OCD have worries and intrusive thoughts about hurting people, which is totally true (they actually are way less likely to do harm). But to use that to defend LL is something I disagree with.

Keep medical things out of it.

curious use of the word “defend” by inference you would suggest that The opposite is happening in that she is being attacked, what happened to presumed innocent until proven guilty? I’m not sure anyone other than mr Myers is defending her, merely trying to ascertain the truth which is indifferent to any party involved.

 

[Sweeper2000]

No, she very obviously wasn't. She was temporarily seconded to another team - that's not being suspended. They were very very careful to not use those words in the description of what was happening exactly because of what it means.

If she had been suspended from clinical duties, she would have had to go to a tribunal/NMC - it's really not more complicated than that. Sorry, your use of the word suspension is just incorrect here. It is a technical term when you are using it in context of someone's job.

I will concede for the benefit of the forum.

 

[Powermjp]

curious use of the word “defend” by inference you would suggest that The opposite is happening in that she is being attacked, what happened to presumed innocent until proven guilty? I’m not sure anyone other than mr Myers is defending her, merely trying to ascertain the truth which is indifferent to any party involved.

Oh I meant the user I first replied to was using OCD in their post, to call the note LL wrote ridiculous. Using various OCD behaviours. That's what I mean by defending.

 

[WaxLyrical]

Yes but the OCD point is irrelevant, I have family members with the exact intrusive thoughts like you described and it's completely different to non OCD people, and it can't be used on LL. Hence it's a diagnosis.

She may have been depressed or feeling down and put everything on her mind, which lots of people do, but this is completely different to OCD and intrusive thoughts. We have her own reasons for writing the note, you don't need to expand into using intrusive thoughts or OCD. This is just not the case.

You’re misinterpreting what I wrote. I’m not diagnosing Letby with OCD. I’m responding to the general suggestion that there’s no possible explanation for why she wrote what she did. My point was that I can relate to the reasons given, and so I cannot ridicule them.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Tbh I don’t think talk about ocd or the usage of words will help the forum. I’m leaving it there.

 

[Jazmania]

The father was not asked, nor required to have recalled the phone call until years after it happened.
There is every chance that phone calls at various times were mistaken, a call that happend closer to 10pm was erroneously thought to have taken place at 9, for example. Perfectly understandable.

As for the question of an epidural, although the pain relief wears off after around 2hrs, the after affects have been known to last for days. This is a shot of steroids into the space around the spinal chord, at the very minmum it would knock a person for six.

Sorry but you're wrong on every point re epidural. The drug given is an anaesthetic, not a steroid. The drug is out of your system within 2 hours. Any side effects wear of quickly and do not include memory loss. Epidural is a pain relief, you are completely conscious throughout.

 

[WaxLyrical]

Oh I meant the user I first replied to was using OCD in their post, to call the note LL wrote ridiculous. Using various OCD behaviours. That's what I mean by defending.

I said the opposite, I said I cannot dismiss the note as ridiculous.

You are reading what you want to read.

 

[Xanadu62]

I will concede for the benefit of the forum.

Yes, because it would be a blatant untruth to say she was suspended in any capacity in July 2016 when she was only suspended (in the correct use of the term) in July 2018. Words matter when used to describe actual events that have happened. We shouldn't be misrepresenting any agreed facts on a public form.

 

[Sausage777]

I will concede for the benefit of the forum.

Lads, I'm employed by the local health Trust, not the place I work, thus they can redeploy me to any job in the trust, whether I like it or not. Suspension means I'm sent home.

 

[Sweeper2000]

you Know what I can see all sides of the story about baby e, I really do.

some questions though. If the post natal ward is above the NNU wouldn’t that place it outside of the door swipe device? If entering through the main route having taken the lift. I don’t know but I might think the mom having had a c section would mean the lift is the more likely mode of transport rather than the stairs which are at the top left of the NNU floor plan. Both ways require admittance by staff and the stairs have cctv. Presumably at some point if cctv is outside the entrances to any unit the mother would have been spotted on her travels?

 

[Marantz4250b]

you Know what I can see all sides of the story about baby e, I really do.

some questions though. If the post natal ward is above the NNU wouldn’t that place it outside of the door swipe device? If entering through the main route having taken the lift. I don’t know but I might think the mom having had a c section would mean the lift is the more likely mode of transport rather than the stairs which are at the top left of the NNU floor plan. Both ways require admittance by staff and the stairs have cctv. Presumably at some point if cctv is outside the entrances to any unit the mother would have been spotted on her travels?

They wouldn't have got statements from her until years later, though. CCTV footage is only kept for a certain length of time which is usually quite short.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

She has an attachment to that memory, because it's the last hours of her baby's life and she wanted to feed him, she was hardwired by very strong maternal needs to nurture her babies. That memory will probably be seared on her brain forever. Nobody else that night had that mother's experience, for them they did not know there would be a need to memorise it, or recall it ever again. Staff do the same thing over and again with all mums, helping to express milk, it's just not memorable, unless it's an event out of the ordinary, like an emergency call is, which then gets recorded in the patient's notes. No one is going to remember the time a mum turned up to feed her baby, it's not a stand out event, especially when she was there earlier and later as well.

There is no one to corroborate LL's notes, which are off by one hour with the feeding regime, and mention cares which the mother had already done before LL's shift started, and mention a doctor on a different ward who has no record of advising LL to omit the feed. If it's a choice between all of those factors weighing in anyone's favour, and corroborated by the call to the father, I know whose account I'm going with. It's not LL's, for all of those reasons.

I think Baby E may turn out to be the strongest case for the prosecution.

For most of the charges , putting aside the medical question of whether it has been shown that a murder or AM took place, I have found the evidence pointing to LL as having done anything nefarious weak.

This is the case where I think the evidence against her as being the culprit is the strongest (mainly for the reasons you list above ).

I don’t see how the defence is going to defeat this charge unless they can do so on the medical evidence and say that regardless of whether you think LL was lying / falsifying medical records/ displaying no concern towards a baby bleeding from the mouth , the fact is that the medical evidence does not show that a murder took place in the first place. And so far, I don’t know how they are going to do that apart from saying that the lack of a post mortem means you can’t be sure what the baby died of.

If I were Ben Myers, I would really be throwing everything I could at this particular charge because I think it is the most dangerous for LL.

 

[marynnu]

I think Baby E may turn out to be the strongest case for the prosecution.

For most of the charges , putting aside the medical question of whether it has been shown that a murder or AM took place, I have found the evidence pointing to LL as having done anything nefarious weak.

This is the case where I think the evidence against her as being the culprit is the strongest (mainly for the reasons you list above ).

I don’t see how the defence is going to defeat this charge unless they can do so on the medical evidence and say that regardless of whether you think LL was lying / falsifying medical records/ displaying no concern towards a baby bleeding from the mouth , the fact is that the medical evidence does not show that a murder took place in the first place. And so far, I don’t know how they are going to do that apart from saying that the lack of a post mortem means you can’t be sure what the baby died of.

If I were Ben Myers, I would really be throwing everything I could at this particular charge because I think it is the most dangerous for LL.

I felt Baby E was the strongest individual case from the start. So unfortunate no PM was done.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

I felt Baby E was the strongest individual case from the start. So unfortunate no PM was done.

I hate to even think about this, as it is such a horrible image, but has anything been said so far in the trial in relation to the babies who died and didn’t get a post-mortem : as in, why weren’t they exhumed to now conduct a post mortem to potentially address some of these questions ? Or were they all cremated ?

 

[Sweeper2000]

I hate to even think about this, as it is such a horrible image, but has anything been said so far in the trial in relation to the babies who died and didn’t get a post-mortem : as in, why weren’t they exhumed to now conduct a post mortem to potentially address some of these questions ? Or were they all cremated ?

I think you are probably correct in regards to child E, I haven’t heard anything about what happened after in child e case the parents said they didn’t want a pm.

 

[marynnu]

I hate to even think about this, as it is such a horrible image, but has anything been said so far in the trial in relation to the babies who died and didn’t get a post-mortem : as in, why weren’t they exhumed to now conduct a post mortem to potentially address some of these questions ? Or were they all cremated ?

Baby E was the only baby who didn't have a PM I believe.

 

[Dotta]

I felt Baby E was the strongest individual case from the start. So unfortunate no PM was done.

If LL is guilty

This tiny Baby was screaming with all his might for Justice for himself and other victims.

"Fate" knows its duty.

JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

I felt Baby E was the strongest individual case from the start. So unfortunate no PM was done.

Interesting because if the jury decide that she is guilty of baby E's murder then there are several factors in Baby E's case that fit in with alleged patterns seen in other babies

• Alleged air embolism
• Bleeding from mouth/throat
• A twin who was allegedly posioned with insulin

All JMO

 

[Xanadu62]

Child E’s parents are also the ones she did the most searches on, 9 in 5 months including Christmas Day.

At police interview, when questioned regarding this, she said the searches would have been to see how baby F was doing. Which seems plausible until you see that the first searches happened on Aug 6, when baby F and his mum were still in the neo natal unit so she’d know how he was doing. It’s another little lie that adds to the growing pile against this family, and will likely create a sense of unease in some jurors.

It’s also the only baby she’s cried for so far (which came just after she’d suggested the baby’s mother lied under oath, but never mind). And of course the twin F is the first insulin case, which was one of the riskiest alleged attacks.

So whatever it is, something about this baby and family are more significant, even to her. It will be interesting to see the prosecution’s cross.

MOO

 

[Sweeper2000]

Child E’s parents are also the ones she did the most searches on, 9 in 5 months including Christmas Day.

At police interview, when questioned regarding this, she said the searches would have been to see how baby F was doing. Which seems plausible until you see that the first searches happened on Aug 6, when baby F and his mum were still in the neo natal unit so she’d know how he was doing. It’s another little lie that adds to the growing pile against this family, and will likely create a sense of unease in some jurors.

It’s also the only baby she’s cried for so far (which came just after she’d suggested the baby’s mother lied under oath, but never mind). And of course the twin F is the first insulin case, which was one of the riskiest alleged attacks.

So whatever it is, something about this baby and family are more significant, even to her. It will be interesting to see the prosecution’s cross.

MOO

Lucy letby did search for the, more than others but her later searches may well have been prompted by the parents further interactions with the unit. I thought it strange she remembered them for so long until someone told me the parents had further interaction After leaving the unit.