UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #26

[Dotta]

This case made me really interested in nurse's bands

In the UK:

"It’s important to note that newly qualified nurses start at the bottom of Band 5 and work their way up from there.

Usually, these nurses start in a hospital setting and progress within their ward, gaining valuable experience to move up within their banding.

Band 6 job roles involve similar tasks and responsibilities as Band 5, however, the nurse is more specialised. To move into this Band, further training in a specialist area is required. This could be a specialism in intensive care or paediatrics, for example

Band 1 consists of domestic support workers, drivers and nursery assistants,
Band 2 is for healthcare assistants,
Band 3 is for roles such as emergency care assistants and Band 4 is for theatre support workers.

Currently, there are nine bands of nursing in the UK.
But, within band 8 there is 8A, 8B, 8C and 8D.

Band 9 job roles are for the most senior NHS managers. People in these roles help with high-level decision making and are experts within their field."

News

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[katydid23]

I am kind of shocked though that the defence is going to take a week. I can't work that out.

I suppose he is going to respond to all the prosecution's points.

It would be a risky strategy to respond to all of the points made by NJ. Usually you only do so if you have a very solid rebuttal to that point. Yet he didn't address hardly any thing when he had the chance, with his client still on the stand.

I can see thagt maybe he just wanted her off there, but if he had solid replies that could bring doubts about the pros case, that would have been the perfect time to do so.

Reason being---you cannot put anything into your closing statements that have not already been dealt with in the case already. In other words, you cannot bring up a brand new piece of evidence or a brand new argument that has not been discussed already.

*A closing argument may not contain any new information and may only use evidence introduced at trial.

So that puts Meyers in a very dark place. What evidence did the defense introduce at trial?



I looked up defense strategies for closing arguments and this one stood out to me. Maybe he will try something like this?

One of the most effective ways of commencing the argument of the case is by stating, or rather re-stating, the case for the prosecution. The statement must be absolutely accurate, but the prosecution's case is stated in such a way as to highlight any improbabilities in the case and to bring within the statement every fact favorable to the defense.


Maybe Meyers will restate the pros case, but in a way that makes it seem unlikely that many of those attacks could take place, because of others around the cot, walking in and out, and her doing other things, according to her notes, and maybe bring up the TPN insulin bags, and her being off duty when some insulin was given?

 

[Sundial]

This case made me really interested in nurse's bands

In the UK:

"It’s important to note that newly qualified nurses start at the bottom of Band 5 and work their way up from there.

Usually, these nurses start in a hospital setting and progress within their ward, gaining valuable experience to move up within their banding.

Band 6 job roles involve similar tasks and responsibilities as Band 5, however, the nurse is more specialised. To move into this Band, further training in a specialist area is required. This could be a specialism in intensive care or paediatrics, for example

Band 1 consists of domestic support workers, drivers and nursery assistants,
Band 2 is for healthcare assistants,
Band 3 is for roles such as emergency care assistants and Band 4 is for theatre support workers.

Currently, there are nine bands of nursing in the UK.
But, within band 8 there is 8A, 8B, 8C and 8D.

Band 9 job roles are for the most senior NHS managers. People in these roles help with high-level decision making and are experts within their field."

News

The website for Shoes for Crews Europe. Slip-resistant footwear since 1984. Work shoes, clogs, trainers, safety boots and more. Order online today.

www.sfceurope.com

Adding to this, the Band 5 is also typically the “preceptorship year” where newly qualified staff are mentored for the first 12 months of their newly qualified status. Preceptorship can be failed.

Her words from the note stick with my thoughts; not good enough.
Why?

We don’t know whether this is a factor here or not but it’s interesting given “when” she qualified and the other points we’ve heard thus far and the points you mention.

This takes me back to the “confidence” discussions etc from her manager, the “upcoming” said job, deferring, gaining skills in ITU etc. Lots out there on the preceptorship year and the skills needed to move beyond that newly qualified/band 5 status.

Moo

 

[SleepyJoe]

I imagine there is the inevitable age difference between her and the doctors too. Could they have been as young as her? I've no idea how long it takes to become a registrar.

A registrar is someone who is on a specialty training program (like paediatrics) who has already done their intern year then a couple of years of being a house officer. So, assuming the person has gone into medicine straight after school, done a 6 year degree then a few years of intern + house officer, a registrar would be (at the earliest) in their late 20s. Usually specialty training programs go for 5 years or so, so this takes people through to their early to mid 30s. Most people don't become a consultant until their late 30s to early 40s.

 

[esther43]

I am kind of shocked though that the defence is going to take a week. I can't work that out.

I suppose he is going to respond to all the prosecution's points.

He's probably going to bore us all to sleep.
I'm curious to see what he says about LL's character. It's still perplexing me why noone came to LL's aid.
I have been trying to understand all this 'good and bad character stuff' and the 'applications' which are really confusing.
However it does seem that the only reference to LL's good character that has been made was in the opening speeches. "She was a dedicated nurse"
And all his questioning was "did she work hard?' 'was she good at her job?'
Zero on the kind of person she was from BM yet plenty from NJ on her bad character.
From what I read, it was really confusing around what is and is allowed to be said about any witnesses character. Everything apparantly having to go through a prior application process?
So Myers is not allowed to make inferences about the characters of all of the witnesses to prove his own case. Which is probably why he was so gentle with the drs just dancing around points saying things like

'so that was your gotcha moment was it?'

Whilst with Evans a 'bad character application' was made so now Myers can now discredit him at any opportunity and hence Bohin is largely the Dr referenced instead?

Bad Character Evidence — Defence-Barrister.co.uk

Understand the implications of bad character evidence in court, including its use and impact on cases. Visit Defence-Barrister.co.uk for detailed insights.

www.defence-barrister.co.uk

 

[Enquirer-2019]

IMOO -

In the midst of an apparent media witch hunt against the defendant - I sincerely hope the defence team delivers substance in the closing arguments next week. As opposed to a continuing spectacle of baring witness to fair justice in fond memory.

 

[DianaWW]

She has had a fair trial. There has not been a media ‘witch hunt’, they have simply reported the evidence that has been presented to the jury.

 

[Dotta]

She has had a fair trial. There has not been a media ‘witch hunt’, they have simply reported the evidence that has been presented to the jury.

She was treated by the Judge with kid gloves during cross ex.

Really,
I have never seen the cross ex. cut short - b/c the defendant was unhappy - before.
I really tried not to roll my eyes.

JMO

 

[IDK]

It would be a risky strategy to respond to all of the points made by NJ. Usually you only do so if you have a very solid rebuttal to that point. Yet he didn't address hardly any thing when he had the chance, with his client still on the stand.

I can see thagt maybe he just wanted her off there, but if he had solid replies that could bring doubts about the pros case, that would have been the perfect time to do so.

Reason being---you cannot put anything into your closing statements that have not already been dealt with in the case already. In other words, you cannot bring up a brand new piece of evidence or a brand new argument that has not been discussed already.

*A closing argument may not contain any new information and may only use evidence introduced at trial.

So that puts Meyers in a very dark place. What evidence did the defense introduce at trial?



I looked up defense strategies for closing arguments and this one stood out to me. Maybe he will try something like this?

One of the most effective ways of commencing the argument of the case is by stating, or rather re-stating, the case for the prosecution. The statement must be absolutely accurate, but the prosecution's case is stated in such a way as to highlight any improbabilities in the case and to bring within the statement every fact favorable to the defense.


Maybe Meyers will restate the pros case, but in a way that makes it seem unlikely that many of those attacks could take place, because of others around the cot, walking in and out, and her doing other things, according to her notes, and maybe bring up the TPN insulin bags, and her being off duty when some insulin was given?

Interesting research you’ve done and I’m glad you shared it here.

I understand the defense did not present any character witnesses, but I guess it’s not surprising? imagine what a negative effect that could have on someone’s professional and personal life, especially if the accused is found guilty. If guilty.

It’s interesting to me that her coworkers continued to socialize with ll up until the time of her arrest, as presented by the prosecution. I’m sure her coworkers, including her doctor friend, knew an investigation was taking place and that ll was at the center of it. Yet they still went out “on the razz” with her, and the doctor went on day trips with her. If they had any suspicions or concerns whatsoever, I don’t think they would have wanted to spend one minute with her. IMO, and if guilty.

 

[marynnu]

Adding to this, the Band 5 is also typically the “preceptorship year” where newly qualified staff are mentored for the first 12 months of their newly qualified status. Preceptorship can be failed.

Her words from the note stick with my thoughts; not good enough.
Why?

We don’t know whether this is a factor here or not but it’s interesting given “when” she qualified and the other points we’ve heard thus far and the points you mention.

This takes me back to the “confidence” discussions etc from her manager, the “upcoming” said job, deferring, gaining skills in ITU etc. Lots out there on the preceptorship year and the skills needed to move beyond that newly qualified/band 5 status.

Moo

It nust vary from place to place I inagine. There was no preceptorship year where I worked.

 

[esther43]

Interesting research you’ve done and I’m glad you shared it here.

I understand the defense did not present any character witnesses, but I guess it’s not surprising? imagine what a negative effect that could have on someone’s professional and personal life, especially if the accused is found guilty. If guilty.

It’s interesting to me that her coworkers continued to socialize with ll up until the time of her arrest, as presented by the prosecution. I’m sure her coworkers, including the the dr., knew an investigation was taking place and that ll was at the center of it. Yet they still went out “on the razz” with her. If they had any suspicions or concerns whatsoever, I can’t imagine they would want to spend one minute with her. IMO, and if guilty.

I think Dr RJ said that many workers did not want to believe it until either the time of child O and P or after.
Very interesting that Dr choc knew about the pm results after o and p but still carried on meeting her though? But because he only came on the scene around the time of child I. There were not that many deaths for a while after that point. So it's easier to see how he thought it was unlucky.
I was surprised that EP was called in by the judge and neither the prosecution nor the defence. Yet if I'm honest I found her evidence more towards the LL side of things and her comments did not verify RJs account that staff believed it was LL after O and P.

 

[IDK]

I think Dr RJ said that many workers did not want to believe it until either the time of child O and P or after.
Very interesting that Dr choc knew about the pm results after o and p but still carried on meeting her though? But because he only came on the scene around the time of child I. There were not that many deaths for a while after that point. So it's easier to see how he thought it was unlucky.
I was surprised that EP was called in by the judge and neither the prosecution nor the defence. Yet if I'm honest I found her evidence more towards the LL side of things and her comments did not verify RJs account that staff believed it was LL after O and P.

Thanks for sharing that about EP— interesting she was called by the judge! I will go look for her testimony and read up this weekend.

Hopping off from your post, IIRC, LL’s doctor friend started working there Jan , 2016. By that time, weren’t there already suspicions about ll, or was it just generalized suspicions at that point? I wonder if his doctor colleagues warned him of their concerns so he could keep a close watch? If not, I wonder why? IMO, if guilty.
( other than the general disbelief that anyone could harm babies purposely which is totally understandable)

 

[ColourPurple]

Thanks for sharing that about EP— interesting she was called by the judge! I will go look for her testimony and read up this weekend.

Hopping off from your post, IIRC, LL’s doctor friend started working there Jan , 2016. By that time, weren’t there already suspicions about ll, or was it just generalized suspicions at that point? I wonder if his doctor colleagues warned him of their concerns so he could keep a close watch? If not, I wonder why? IMO, if guilty.
( other than the general disbelief that anyone could harm babies purposely which is totally understandable)

According to LL in court, Doc Choc started working there around September 2015, but he doesn't appear to be involved in any cases until Baby L I think?

Asked specifically about the registrar, she said he had started working at the unit around September 2015.

She had got to know him 'just through working together', but later began meeting him socially.

Mr Myers asked whether he was anything more than a friend? 'No, she said. But she then agreed it was a 'close' friendship.

She went on: 'He was a trusted friend, yes. Sometimes he would come to my house. Sometimes we would go out for a meal or coffee, or walks'.
He had left the Countess of Chester Hospital in the autumn of 2016 and their friendship had 'sort of fizzled out'. He was now a consultant elsewhere in the country.

Court shown card Lucy Letby wrote to parents of baby she 'murdered'

Lucy Letby wrote a letter to the parents of a baby girl she is accused or murdering, telling them 'there are no words to make this any easier,' her trial heard. The note was shown in court.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[IDK]

According to LL in court, Doc Choc started working there around September 2015, but he doesn't appear to be involved in any cases until Baby L I think?

Asked specifically about the registrar, she said he had started working at the unit around September 2015.

She had got to know him 'just through working together', but later began meeting him socially.

Mr Myers asked whether he was anything more than a friend? 'No, she said. But she then agreed it was a 'close' friendship.

She went on: 'He was a trusted friend, yes. Sometimes he would come to my house. Sometimes we would go out for a meal or coffee, or walks'.
He had left the Countess of Chester Hospital in the autumn of 2016 and their friendship had 'sort of fizzled out'. He was now a consultant elsewhere in the country.

Court shown card Lucy Letby wrote to parents of baby she 'murdered'

Lucy Letby wrote a letter to the parents of a baby girl she is accused or murdering, telling them 'there are no words to make this any easier,' her trial heard. The note was shown in court.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Thank you for clarifying that! Quite a close friendship. So he started Sept 2015… interesting.

 

[Sundial]

It nust vary from place to place I inagine. There was no preceptorship year where I worked.

They became part of the reforms but usually 4-12 months is the norm for a preceptorship.
That said, Im mindful there were nurses who qualified under the old Diploma route and many were encouraged to “top-up” into the full degree. The Diploma route doesn’t exist anymore as such and was replaced with the associate nurse programme instead.

She may well have been one of the few on the unit who took the Diploma pathway if that’s how she qualified. Interesting thought that to move into the band 6 she would need more specialised experience, such as ITU.

This does concern me a bit really because of what we now know about the nursery preferences etc and the expression of interest seemingly more so with the ITU babies. Any lack of experience or being given opportunity to develop it etc and then she’s reportedly being located elsewhere and bored etc as alleged- would naturally take longer to qualify into the band 6 position.

Interesting she’s taken the ITU training and yet was still one of the very few in that same band 5. That must have been frustrating for her I feel. Just my observation.

Moo
If guilty of course.
JMO

 

[IDK]

Adding this here—I wonder if there was any resentment among the other doctors that LL had a couple doctor friends, one very close? Just curious if it would be considered a “class” issue— would any doctors deem a nurse to be “below” them, social class wise? IMO, if guilty

 

[Dotta]

They became part of the reforms but usually 4-12 months is the norm for a preceptorship.
That said, Im mindful there were nurses who qualified under the old Diploma route and many were encouraged to “top-up” into the full degree. The Diploma route doesn’t exist anymore as such and was replaced with the associate nurse programme instead.

She may well have been one of the few on the unit who took the Diploma pathway if that’s how she qualified. Interesting thought that to move into the band 6 she would need more specialised experience, such as ITU.

This does concern me a bit really because of what we now know about the nursery preferences etc and the expression of interest seemingly more so with the ITU babies. Any lack of experience or being given opportunity to develop it etc and then she’s reportedly being located elsewhere and bored etc as alleged- would naturally take longer to qualify into the band 6 position.

Interesting she’s taken the ITU training and yet was still one of the very few in that same band 5. That must have been frustrating for her I feel. Just my observation.

Moo
If guilty of course.
JMO

I have a question

Some refer to nurses as "sisters" claiming that they are senior nurses.

It caught my eye as in my country sometimes older folks call a nurse "Sister".

Is this name for nurses still popular?

 

[marynnu]

They became part of the reforms but usually 4-12 months is the norm for a preceptorship.
That said, Im mindful there were nurses who qualified under the old Diploma route and many were encouraged to “top-up” into the full degree. The Diploma route doesn’t exist anymore as such and was replaced with the associate nurse programme instead.

She may well have been one of the few on the unit who took the Diploma pathway if that’s how she qualified. Interesting thought that to move into the band 6 she would need more specialised experience, such as ITU.

This does concern me a bit really because of what we now know about the nursery preferences etc and the expression of interest seemingly more so with the ITU babies. Any lack of experience or being given opportunity to develop it etc and then she’s reportedly being located elsewhere and bored etc as alleged- would naturally take longer to qualify into the band 6 position.

Interesting she’s taken the ITU training and yet was still one of the very few in that same band 5. That must have been frustrating for her I feel. Just my observation.

Moo
If guilty of course.
JMO

Aa I undersrand it she only completed her specialist training early 2015. You wouldn't be able to apply for a Band 6 for some time after this, even assuming a post came up. The only thing that struck me was the length of time she was at CoC before starting the course, 2.5 years,or so, which serms quite long to me.

 

[marynnu]

I have a question

Some refer to nurses as "sisters" claiming that they are senior nurses.

It caught my eye as in my country sometimes older folks call a nurse "Sister".

Is this name for nurses still popular?

Yes, it's still used here. It would be for a band 6 or 7, depending on the area of work.

 

[Tortoise]

I think NJ KC has played a blinder with the post-it note.

He's hardly touched on it, except for getting her admissions that she had a very busy social life, a house, a car, a boyfriend and a good job, as to call her out on her answers to why she wrote she would never marry or have children being that she was isolated for two years and no one would want to marry her because of her redeployment and mistakes. She even answered to Mr Myers questions on re-examination "Because despite what is going on, you have to find some kind of quality of life."

In his closing arguments NJ said -

"However, prosecutor Nick Johnson KC told Manchester Crown Court yesterday that the note should be viewed as a ‘confession’.

He said it was not, as she claimed, ‘the anguished outpourings of a woman in fear and despair’ at having been moved away from the frontline nursing job she loved.

It should be taken ‘literally’, he told jurors."

Lucy Letby's chilling note should be taken 'literally', court hears


"He says the point is very simple for the notes overall - the notes contain admissions,"...

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 22 - prosecution closing speech



I think he didn't get into analysis of the wording of the note, ie. "I killed them on purpose", as BM did with her, because NJ is avoiding an appeal issue (if convicted) that the note could have different interpretations, was therefore prejudicial and should have been excluded and the prosecution relied on the note as a substantial piece of evidence, and instead he wants the jury to focus their deliberations on what the evidence over the whole year shows. It also takes the wind out of the sails of BM before he's even left port, because he can't now say that the prosecution were over-focused on what she wrote because they need to shore up their case.

The note seems to have been a fairly large part of BM's opening remarks, in terms of his perceived need to downplay it's significance, when in reality it seems to have only been no more than a brief reveal at the end of the prosecution's four-day opening:-

11:39am

"On another piece of paper, she wrote: 'I don’t deserve to live. I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough”.
“'I am a horrible evil person' and in capital letters, 'I AM EVIL I DID THIS'.
"That, in a nutshell," Mr Johnson tells the court, "is your case."

11:40am

That is the conclusion of the prosecution opening."

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

JMO