UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #26

[Marantz4250b]

She will of commuted to LWH from Chester as it’s really not that far at all or 20 mins direct on the train if that if she was living in Chester city centre.
I feel the media have been very restrained on this case as it absolutely should be, IIRC Sky News were thrown out of court for mistakenly using one of the babies names very early doors in this and they know they cannot mess this up but I am amazed at how few people know about it or are following it ( here is all I have as my daughter is sick to death of discussing it ! ) She has a close friend who is doing placements at MRI and when I ask her nobody is discussing it at all …. Eh ?
The DM don’t stick crime reporters on a mega long case and produce a podcast running along side the trial for nothing.
There is tonnes going on behind the scene I am sure.
All my opinion only of course.

I think you're very right there. A huge amount is going to come out when this is finished, especially if she's convicted.

 

[marynnu]

Insulin can only be administered intravenously or subcutaneously. It cannot be administered orally. While I don't work in NNU, in my experience in similar environments (adult intensive care), any nurse can get the keys to fridge or medication cupboard by getting them from whoever is holding them (a frequent refrain is "keys please!" or "who's got the keys?!"). Syringes are usually easily available on a trolley close to the clinical areas. It would be very easy to get the keys to go to the fridge for another reason, and if noone is looking, slip a small vial of insulin in one's pocket. Similarly, it would be very easy for one to slip an insulin syringe in one's pocket. If one was so inclined and didn't want anyone to see one drawing up insulin it could even be done when one was in the bathroom (disgusting I know, but possible), then slip the drawn up syringe back in one's pocket.

In summary, IMO there would be opportunities for any nurse to covertly obtain, draw up and inject insulin into a TPN or dextrose bag if one was so inclined. All hypothetically and IMOO.

Mary could elaborate further!

Can't elaborate on that, you've covered all bases!

 

[Dotta]

It's interesting that the conspiracy accusation/defence has been levelled by LL at the doctors.

You'd think (IF guilty) that if you wanted to convince people that *someone* was covering up incompetence, it would be more cunning to accuse your fellow nurses.

I wonder to what extent this relates to:

(A) awareness that the consultants were the ones leading the charge for LL to be investigated

(B) if guilty, possible narcissistic outrage that the 'higher status' individuals she aligned herself with had turned against her/failed to recognize her superiority among the nursing staff

(C) hopes that by keeping the nursing staff sweet they might help defend her

(Once she realised they weren't going to, she started throwing them under the bus left right and centre and was secretly undermining them in text messages the whole time IMO MOO)

If guilty...

She seemed to be at odds with the whole world:
Babies, nurses, doctors, a student, and even with her own parents (bitching about them in her texts).

But real hatred IMO was directed against herself
("I'm evil",
"I don't deserve my parents").


Her "Nobody can help me",
"Nobody will ever know what happened"
suggests she was aware of the terrible mental state she was in.
But couldn't or didn't want to seek help.

JMO

 

[Kemug]

I believe someone said a while back that the publicity photo of LL holding a baby garment was taken on the day between 2 attacks on babies. (sorry, I'm too tired to go back and find that post). It really is so hard to take in, isn't it.

 

[Dotta]

I believe someone said a while back that the publicity photo of LL holding a baby garment was taken on the day between 2 attacks on babies. (sorry, I'm too tired to go back and find that post). It really is so hard to take in, isn't it.

OMG

It reminds me of "Picture of Dorian Gray" by O. Wilde.

The more rotten his soul was becoming,
the more beautiful his face was appearing on his portrait.


JMO

 

[TheCraig]

I believe someone said a while back that the publicity photo of LL holding a baby garment was taken on the day between 2 attacks on babies. (sorry, I'm too tired to go back and find that post). It really is so hard to take in, isn't it.

That photo was used in a newspaper article from March 2013 so I can’t have been taken on a day between 2 attacks in this
case

https://www.coch.nhs.uk/media/74654/chester_standard_babygrow_page_1070kb__28.03.2013_.pdf

 

[ColourPurple]

That photo was used in a newspaper article from March 2013 so I can’t have been taken on a day between 2 attacks in this
case

https://www.coch.nhs.uk/media/74654/chester_standard_babygrow_page_1070kb__28.03.2013_.pdf

It's this pic from 6th August 2015. (That's the date of the newsletter so may have been taken before then). Baby E died on 4th August, Baby F's alleged attempted murder was 5th August 2015. Dr Gibbs is also on the pic.

https://www.coch.nhs.uk/media/121105/6th-august-2015.pdf

ETA- edited to remove the mother and baby's names from the description under the pic

 

[SleepyJoe]

But real hatred IMO was directed against herself
("I'm evil",
"I don't deserve my parents").

I totally agree with you there. The other night I was reading through all those hand written notes from LL that have been submitted in evidence. They are extremely disturbed and IMHO show a tormented and conflicted mind. I actually felt compassion for how much she was obviously suffering when she wrote them. Regardless of how horrific these alleged crimes were, IMOO it seemed to me that, if she is guilty of course, she had got herself into a dreadful pickle and didn't know how to process it, who to turn to or how on earth she could get herself out of it. There were so many jumbled and incoherent ramblings she seemed to be psychologically unravelling (IMOO and I am not trained in psychology/ psychiatry). It's fascinating that in the same time period she wrote those she was allegedly out on the town with friends and putting together a "normal" and sociable outward appearance! Just goes to show we can never really know another person from how they present.

I agree with Tortoise that NJ KC was wise not to put too much emphasis on the notes as they speak for themselves.

 

[ColourPurple]

I totally agree with you there. The other night I was reading through all those hand written notes from LL that have been submitted in evidence. They are extremely disturbed and IMHO show a tormented and conflicted mind. I actually felt compassion for how much she was obviously suffering when she wrote them. Regardless of how horrific these alleged crimes were, IMOO it seemed to me that, if she is guilty of course, she had got herself into a dreadful pickle and didn't know how to process it, who to turn to or how on earth she could get herself out of it. There were so many jumbled and incoherent ramblings she seemed to be psychologically unravelling (IMOO and I am not trained in psychology/ psychiatry). It's fascinating that in the same time period she wrote those she was allegedly out on the town with friends and putting together a "normal" and sociable outward appearance! Just goes to show we can never really know another person from how they present.

I agree with Tortoise that NJ KC was wise not to put too much emphasis on the notes as they speak for themselves.

The interesting thing is that the notes are all written after she was removed from the ward, was being investigated by the hospital, and no longer had access to babies. There is no evidence of her writing any similar notes before then.

Suggesting IMO that, if guilty, the unravelling is to do with her no longer being able to target babies, and the fear of being found out and ultimately ending up in prison, rather than her independently realising that what she was allegedly doing was wrong and wanting to stop.

JMO, if guilty.

 

[Dotta]

It's this pic from 6th August 2015. (That's the date of the newsletter so may have been taken before then). Baby E died on 4th August, Baby F's alleged attempted murder was 5th August 2015. Dr Gibbs is also on the pic.

View attachment 430983

https://www.coch.nhs.uk/media/121105/6th-august-2015.pdf

ETA- edited to remove the mother and baby's names from the description under the pic

Looking at this pic I can understand ppl couldn't believe she did what she is accused of.

Really.

She looks perfect, radiant, happy.

But then, she seems to be photogenic.

JMO

 

[marynnu]

It's this pic from 6th August 2015. (That's the date of the newsletter so may have been taken before then). Baby E died on 4th August, Baby F's alleged attempted murder was 5th August 2015. Dr Gibbs is also on the pic.

View attachment 430983

https://www.coch.nhs.uk/media/121105/6th-august-2015.pdf

ETA- edited to remove the mother and baby's names from the description under the pic

This makes me so sad. All of them standing together as a team, oblivious to what was to come. Whatever must her colleagues be thinking.

 

[SleepyJoe]

The interesting thing is that the notes are all written after she was removed from the ward, was being investigated by the hospital, and no longer had access to babies. There is no evidence of her writing any similar notes before then.

Suggesting IMO that, if guilty, the unravelling is to do with her no longer being able to target babies, and the fear of being found out and ultimately ending up in prison, rather than her independently realising that what she was allegedly doing was wrong and wanting to stop.

JMO, if guilty.

Good point. If guilty, her unravelling and mental suffering depicted in the notes has more to do with worrying about being found out and the anguish she felt about being removed from her "dream job", rather than any remorse she felt at what she had allegedly inflicted on those poor babies and their families. If guilty, it seems that at some level she did acknowledge that what she had done was wrong ("I'm evil", "I did this", "I don't deserve Mum and Dad", "Today is your birthday and I am sorry you cant be here") but she may have only had to confront the reality of her behaviour psychologically once it appeared she was being investigated/ linked to the deaths and collapses. Otherwise she may have continued on in a state of a denial as to what she was really doing. All speculation and MOO of course. If she is found guilty, this case will no doubt provide endless fodder for forensic psychologists and psychiatrists to analyse as she is truly very perplexing.

 

[marynnu]

I totally agree with you there. The other night I was reading through all those hand written notes from LL that have been submitted in evidence. They are extremely disturbed and IMHO show a tormented and conflicted mind. I actually felt compassion for how much she was obviously suffering when she wrote them. Regardless of how horrific these alleged crimes were, IMOO it seemed to me that, if she is guilty of course, she had got herself into a dreadful pickle and didn't know how to process it, who to turn to or how on earth she could get herself out of it. There were so many jumbled and incoherent ramblings she seemed to be psychologically unravelling (IMOO and I am not trained in psychology/ psychiatry). It's fascinating that in the same time period she wrote those she was allegedly out on the town with friends and putting together a "normal" and sociable outward appearance! Just goes to show we can never really know another person from how they present.

I agree with Tortoise that NJ KC was wise not to put too much emphasis on the notes as they speak for themselves.

I've always felt the same. They don't look cold and calculated, but to me show a person in mental turmoil and distress. A lost soul, you might say.

 

[ColourPurple]

I've always felt the same. They don't look cold and calculated, but to me show a person in mental turmoil and distress. A lost soul, you might say.

If guilty, the times of being cold and calculated were over at this point. She was no longer in control. We saw glimpses of her reaction when she lost control before "Who are these people, who are these people?" and "I'm having a meltdown++". However, being removed from the ward and investigated was loss of control on a massive scale.

JMO, if guilty.

 

[ColourPurple]

Looking at this pic I can understand ppl couldn't believe she did what she is accused of.

Really.

She looks perfect, radiant, happy.



JMO

And above all... normal!

 

[ColourPurple]

Good point. If guilty, her unravelling and mental suffering depicted in the notes has more to do with worrying about being found out and the anguish she felt about being removed from her "dream job", rather than any remorse she felt at what she had allegedly inflicted on those poor babies and their families. If guilty, it seems that at some level she did acknowledge that what she had done was wrong ("I'm evil", "I did this", "I don't deserve Mum and Dad", "Today is your birthday and I am sorry you cant be here") but she may have only had to confront the reality of her behaviour psychologically once it appeared she was being investigated/ linked to the deaths and collapses. Otherwise she may have continued on in a state of a denial as to what she was really doing. All speculation and MOO of course. If she is found guilty, this case will no doubt provide endless fodder for forensic psychologists and psychiatrists to analyse as she is truly very perplexing.

If guilty, I'm not convinced she would ever have confronted the reality of what she was doing. And even when she was forced to, her concerns were largely about herself and her future. I think she would have just carried on what she was doing, and these kind of notes would never have been written. JMO, if guilty.

 

[chimpface]

The interesting thing is that the notes are all written after she was removed from the ward, was being investigated by the hospital, and no longer had access to babies. There is no evidence of her writing any similar notes before then.

Suggesting IMO that, if guilty, the unravelling is to do with her no longer being able to target babies, and the fear of being found out and ultimately ending up in prison, rather than her independently realising that what she was allegedly doing was wrong and wanting to stop.

JMO, if guilty.

Exactly. The only people I feel compassion for are the babies and their parents.

 

[Tortoise]

I've always felt the same. They don't look cold and calculated, but to me show a person in mental turmoil and distress. A lost soul, you might say.

If guilty -

there is a world of difference between distress for oneself, being rumbled/exposed to her family and others, facing the loss of freedom, and distress for the devastation caused to others and for the babies.

I see only panic at the situation, no way out, and no sadness or remorse for the (alleged) victims.

She never writes what caused her to feel like (allegedly) murdering. I think she has split off from it, as if she is almost so accustomed to gaslighting, that she even gaslights herself to minimise her own accountability, by saying not good enough, awful and evil. I get the meaning of evil, but it doesn't get to the roots, which is what makes me see it as childish, and might be some kind of fall from the heights of hollow grandiosity, a tantrum/childish rage response to unmet needs formed very early that she never grew out of. The inability to see or consider how others are feeling makes me think this is something pathological with her.

Only if guilty.

MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Looking at this pic I can understand ppl couldn't believe she did what she is accused of.

Really.

She looks perfect, radiant, happy.

But then, she seems to be photogenic.

JMO

Originally, I was one of the first people posting on here to say I was open to believing the 'scapegoat' idea. Because I have seen so many examples of failing institutions and systems harming people. Also, I couldn't imagine how any person who has trained consistently and steadfastly to do their job and not come to anyone's attention as being a bit of a 'weirdo' would be the same profile as a serial killer.

However, I have now completely changed my mind as a result of following this case and seeing the evidence presented.

Had the scapegoat theory applied, I would have expected to see a lot of chaos, many unexplained but different types of deaths with a variety of causes that could all point back to lack of proper care, short staffing, transient staff, bad facilities, bad hygiene (ie bacterial and viral causes of death), poor equipment, and dangerous working practices. None of that has transpired to be the case, quite the opposite IMO.

For people who haven't been following the case, then they don't really have anything to comment on as they haven't tracked the ins and outs of evidence and cross examination. The allegations of faulty plumbing, people smoking and not washing their hands, poor staff conduct etc have all amounted to literally nothing, 0.00, the deaths are not related in any way to bacterial infection or neglect, the prosecution have proven this but if you weren't following, how could you know? JMO MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If guilty, I'm not convinced she would ever have confronted the reality of what she was doing. And even when she was forced to, her concerns were largely about herself and her future. I think she would have just carried on what she was doing, and these kind of notes would never have been written. JMO, if guilty.

Do you think, if guilty, we the public will find out a lot more about her personal life and what would amount to 'explanations' and motivations and her psyche?