VERDICT WATCH UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #28

[Parker Knoll]

Oh and a very happy belated birthday to @squish and thanks for the update, we were worried ( Manchester like the Wild West these days ! )
Just a heads up, it’s mine next Sunday so that gives EVERYONE time to organise cards, cakes and balloons.
Just FYI !

 

[marynnu]

I know that there is normally very little advanced notice when the jury return with their verdicts. But is it always the case? I'm thinking that as there is no timescale and there are a lot of charges it will be very hard for the parents to be sure they're there when it happens. Does anyone know if allowances are made for this, as it's such a harrowing case?

 

[Dcflag]

I know that there is normally very little advanced notice when the jury return with their verdicts. But is it always the case? I'm thinking that as there is no timescale and there are a lot of charges it will be very hard for the parents to be sure they're there when it happens. Does anyone know if allowances are made for this, as it's such a harrowing case?

I always assumed that once the jury have reached a verdict, the court reconvenes, and you just have to wait whether it’s ten minutes or ten hours. Im probably wrong though!

 

[Phoenix Lazarus]

I wonder how she'll sleep tonight.

 

[notsure]

I wonder how she'll sleep tonight.

She's probably been taking sleeping tablets for years now, throughout this process.

 

[Dotta]

As I understand
The State put one of the best and experienced Prosecution team into this case.
So the Defence team must be an adequate match, no?
Both barristers are KCs - you cannot go higher into hierarchy, right?
Or wrong?

And the Judge also must be top notch.

I guess the State pays for her Defence.
But did she have to contribute something?
She sold her house, after all.

The cost of all this must be enormous - multiple expert opinions/ experts/barristers.

Is Mr BenM KC a public Defender or just hired by the State for this role?

JMO

 

[notsure]

As I understand
The State put one of the best and experienced Prosecution team into this case.
So the Defence team must be an adequate match, no?
Both barristers are KCs - you cannot go higher into hierarchy, right?
Or wrong?

And the Judge also must be top notch.

I guess the State pays for her Defence.
But did she have to contribute something?
She sold her house, after all.

The cost of all this must be enormous - multiple expert opinions/ experts/barristers.

Is Mr BenM KC a public Defender or just hired by the State for this role?

JMO

I often wonder about those questions, and others. For instance, if innocent, will the accused get some kind of compensation for being incarcerated for all this time?

 

[Becci]

I often wonder about those questions, and others. For instance, if innocent, will the accused get some kind of compensation for being incarcerated for all this time?

The stepping hill nurse was in custody for 6wks & got £53.000 compensation for been wrongly accused.

 

[Dotta]

I often wonder about those questions, and others. For instance, if innocent, will the accused get some kind of compensation for being incarcerated for all this time?

Considering very serious charges I don't think a person can be put on bail.

I understood she was sent to jail/prison as soon as was charged.

And IMO there is no compensation if the person is exonerated or found NG.

But I might be wrong - I only learn about these things reading WS.

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

Dbm.

 

[MissMarbles]

Just out of interest, what happens if the verdict is one people on here maybe aren't expecting - are we allowed to discuss our thoughts and feelings on the matter on here?

 

[cuecard]

Just out of interest, what happens if the verdict is one people on here maybe aren't expecting - are we allowed to discuss our thoughts and feelings on the matter on here?

I'd imagine as long as posts are respectful and within the rules then we will be allowed to discuss.

 

[cuecard]

It's been a very long and oftentimes harrowing case/trial to follow. My own conclusions aside, I don't envy the jury one bit in this situation.

 

[Becci]

That’s not even minimum wage, so they committed a crime in the process of paying someone for having not committed a crime?

What? Lol

 

[Dotta]

It's been a very long and oftentimes harrowing case/trial to follow. My own conclusions aside, I don't envy the jury one bit in this situation.

I wonder if the Jurors are provided with some kind of psychological counselling?

After all, they are just random citizens - not really prepared for such lengthy time of trauma.

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

Good point about the breaks. @Tortoise , not to be competitive but can we state the T's & C's upfront please?

Total deliberation time excludes the lunch hour.

Ha ha that's why those of us who have been unceremoniously thrown into the shredder chose to name a day and a time- to avoid complications of breaks and sleeps and weekends!!

Your submission may duplicate with other competition entries which coincide with your date and time, which is why they all need to be in the same format.

A prediction of time spent in deliberation doesn't need to be concerned with breaks, sleeps and weekends. The total length minus breaks will be worked out when they announce a verdict has been reached.

 

[cuecard]

I wonder if the Jurors are provided with some kind of psychological counselling?

After all, they are just random citizens - not really prepared for such lengthy time of trauma.

JMO

Yeah, I know what you mean and I'd imagine a lot of this has been really stressful/emotionally traumatic to listen to.

 

[Sundial]

I'm heeeere!

Sorry for my absence. On Thursday, I left at 5:40am and only had 90 minutes sleep, and didn't get into court until 12:15pm (thanks to a stupid taxi driver - should have walked). I slept on the train home then didn't get the energy to write my second post. I had to go on a pre-planned group outing on the 7th, and have slept all day on the 8th (my birthday :/ )

So just getting the chance to write up now - sorry for causing worries. I didn't manage to see anyone going in or out of court 7, but did briefly see Nick Johnson KC heading off for lunch with some other middle-aged gentlemen.

When I went back into court 8, someone had earlier vacated an end seat opposite the bigger TV screen (the best side of the court), which I went and sat in, and then swapped with a lady who wanted the end seat as she was anxious about catching her train. I ended up in the best viewing seat in the court! I was so pleased, I didn't have to strain to look at all.

Observations:

- More stumbling over words from the judge included calling a baby by the wrong name (think along the lines of "Daniel this, Daniel that, - oh sorry, it's Darius"), and calling a consultant paediatrician a "paediatric paediatrician".

- The judge would also sometimes pause for a few seconds, clearing up his own confusion about what he was reading aloud.

- At one point, somebody made a noise and caused a disturbance in court 7. We couldn't hear them, but they must have apologised, and the Judge was very kind about it. He is very kindly and non-intimidating.

- The judges summing up really was a rehashing of the prosecutions evidence, followed by briefly mentioning the defense disagreeing, or Lucy not remembering, etc.

- One policeman was amused by the retelling of the go commando denial.

- For Baby M, the medical evidence suggests that air could have been injected into the "dead space" of a certain type of line (I can't remember the name of the line) that protrudes from the body. When fluid was next pushed in, the fluid would have pushed the air in the dead space through. This would have given a delay between injection of the air embolism and symptoms appearing, and the air would have entered more slowly, giving Baby M a better chance of survival.

- I felt no clearer after hearing the rest of the evidence about Baby N. I think it's quite risky for the prosecution to have three separate attempted murder charges; it's my understanding that for some of the alleged attempted murders, there is only a single charge despite multiple events, because the repeated attempts are what actually shows intent to kill. They have done this in other cases where the prosecution are not entirely sure what LL is alleged to have done, such as Baby J. Whereas when the attempts are severe and definitive, such is in Baby G, there are multiple attempted murder charges. It seems like Baby N should fall into the single charge category, because it seems like they don't know what exactly she allegedly did for the first two charges, and this may be my poor concentration and memory, but the circumstantial evidence didn't seem to be as strong as for other charges. (I hope @Tortoise can help clarify here!). These charges rely a lot on fitting with patterns with other charges: the scene-setting by talking of his hemophilia, the blood in the throat, etc.

- The medical details for Baby O were devastating. If guilty, for many of the other charges, she seems to have been playing with fate. But IMO, she did not want this baby to have a chance of getting away, at all; someone wanted that baby dead already. He had an air bubble in his heart, distended guts blown up with air, and the traumatic liver injury. His alleged attacker threw everything at him, and it wouldn't surprise me if (if guilty) the liver injury arose out of frustration at the more familiar murder methods not working as quickly as desired.

- There was a break between hearing summing ups for babies O and P, and I stayed in the room. The police were whispering something about the investigation and Baby O, but I couldn't hear what.

- By the time of the summing up for Baby P, I was having micro-sleeps. I just was too sleep-deprived. I feel really guilty and disrespectful. Part of the reason for following this is that I want to see justice done, and it feels like hearing the evidence is hearing and acknowledging what the babies went through. But my brain just wasn't cooperating any more.

- At the end, there was talk from the barristers, about something that could have a "catastrophic" effect on the trial. It sounded like NJ has arranged for photos to be taken of all of the witnesses, because he was involved in a previous medical trial where the jury couldn't remember all the witnesses and asked for photos to help them. This is "evidence" and I think the gist was, it therefore need to be disclosed to the defense. There was some talk about it, and BM agreed the jury can have the photos, if they need them.

- As mentioned, Court 8 was packed. I talked to six of the other trial watchers, all of whom were friendly and interested in talking about it all. Two fellow ladies in their 30's seemed to have a similar view of things as me - and one had also been banned from the biggest Facebook group like me! There was a middle-aged lady who had been to the trial most days, and believed that the hospital was responsible for a lot of the babies' issues, which I found surprising.

- Another lady was there at the beginning of the day, and saw Lucy walk in with her guards. She said Lucy looked like she was laughing.

- For @Dotta - I had full view of her walking off from the knees up, and can confirm she looks to be about the same weight she always was.

- She exudes confidence even when she walks, while walking entirely normally.

- For @Sweeper2000 - from her demeanour, she appears to genuinely not give a *advertiser censored**. Not as in a stroppy, sulky, "*advertiser censored** you I don't care!" sort of way, nor showing contempt by being casual, but truly, at a soul level, she just doesn't seem to care. Totally and utterly unbothered. I am not sure if this means she believes she is going down and is resigned to her fate; I think we can infer that her distress after slipping up under cross examination about Baby I ("I knew what I was looking for - at") means that she does care about the jury's verdict and her own performance on the stand. Logically, that would suggest that she is not "resigned" as such, and her unfazed demeanour must be the result of something else.

Bless you, just catching up here, I hope you are feeling better rested now and thank you for sharing this.

Also, happy belated birthday!

 

[Tortoise]

Deliberations Predictions

6h - @NeverPersonal
8h 30m - @Phoenix Lazarus
8h 45m - @Sundial
9h - @SusanDonim
9h 30m - @Tortoise
10h 15m - @Diddly1
10h 45m - @Bethan
11h 30m - @Becci
12h 41m - @marynnu
13h 13m - @Luwin
14h 20m - @Becky53
14h 46m - @Marantz4250b
15h 20m - @JosieJo
15h 45m - @katydid23
16h - @Jazmania
17h 30m - @May72031
17h 40m - @Penny68
18h - @GoodDayToYouSir
19h 30m - @MissMarbles
19h 45m - @ScotAng
20h - @Moll
22h 22m - @abovethestorm
23h 12m - @Dcflag
24h 10m - @Blondiexoxo
25h - @Sarahlou
28h 28m - @DianaWW
31h 30m - @Sweeper2000
32h 14m - @Kittybunny
35h 25m - @Dotta
41h 15m - @Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc
45h 10m - @esther43
58h - @Jw192
75h - @CS2C


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Thurs 13th July 2pm to 4pm - @Parker Knoll
Thurs 13th July 2.30pm - @Kemug
Thurs 13th July 3.37pm - @Legal
Fri 14th July 12.45pm - @ColourPurple

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Competition closing date Mon 10th July 2023 10.30am
Prize - nothing, zilch, not even pizza

 

[V347]

Could a long time lurker make a last min entry please?

80 hours

(Might be wayyy too far out but there’s going to be an insane amount of paperwork)