VERDICT WATCH UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #28

[Penny68]

Totally just my thoughts..

If LL is found guilty of some of the charges against her, yet some are quashed due to lack of proof/evidence of her doing anything untoward to them, yet the parents still unconvinced that their losses were of a natural way.

I wonder could the parents of those babies bring a new case to have their babies deaths/attempted deaths looked into again. Or will the findings of the Jury be final for all time?.

 

[Dotta]

Totally just my thoughts..

If LL is found guilty of some of the charges against her, yet some are quashed due to lack of proof/evidence of her doing anything untoward to them, yet the parents still unconvinced that their losses were of a natural way.

I wonder could the parents of those babies bring a new case to have their babies deaths/attempted deaths looked into again. Or will the findings of the Jury be final for all time?.

Final IMO.
Except if there is new evidence.

JMO

 

[Blondiexoxo]

@Tortoise do you know if the jury have a copy of the judge’s directions? Specifically the bit you quoted above about them not having to establish exactly what harmful act or acts were committed just that harm occurred at the hands of the defendant?

I know they don’t have a copy of the summing up but I’d imagine they should have those directions as it explains how they can link the cases and find similarities etc..

MOO

 

[Parker Knoll]

I cannot find out how long they deliberated for but that case sounds WILD !
The judge officially “ retired “ during it, the jury were excused for 3 weeks while one of them got married and one witness was too ill to attend court in person so a mock up of a court was made at his house !
Makes the Letby trial look positively tame.

 

[gc105]

I cannot find out how long they deliberated for but that case sounds WILD !
The judge officially “ retired “ during it, the jury were excused for 3 weeks while one of them got married and one witness was too ill to attend court in person so a mock up of a court was made at his house !
Makes the Letby trial look positively tame.

My husband has occasionally mentioned it because the court case took place not far from us! Hadn’t actually really paid much attention to it until today when I realised how long it lasted & the amount of charges against him.

What a mad case!!!! The woman is out already, think she served 9.5 months - insane when you look at what they done!!!!

 

[Tortoise]

@Tortoise do you know if the jury have a copy of the judge’s directions? Specifically the bit you quoted above about them not having to establish exactly what harmful act or acts were committed just that harm occurred at the hands of the defendant?

I know they don’t have a copy of the summing up but I’d imagine they should have those directions as it explains how they can link the cases and find similarities etc..

MOO

Yes they are given a written copy of his directions and route to verdict.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Yes they are given a written copy of his directions and route to verdict.

I think that will play a major part in whatever the eventual verdicts may be. For me anyway, those directions give the possibility that some of the seemingly less strong cases could warrant s guilty verdict IMO. But then I’m not on the jury so my opinion means nothing. However, if I were in that room I would want to go through those directions when deliberating each and every charge. I think it may help make it easier to agree on verdicts if they understand that AE didn’t have to be proven by the prosecution but that’s JMO

 

[Tortoise]

Technically they could return (could have already returned) verdicts on some of the charges without us even knowing, if a reporting restriction is put on it.

21-6 Taking partial verdicts
ARCHBOLD 4-516 and 522; BLACKSTONE’S D19.69, CrimPD 8.6.5

1. Where there are several counts (or alternative verdicts) left to the jury, the judge has a discretion in deciding when to take or ask the jury if it has reached any unanimous verdicts. The circumstances of the case may give rise to the view that it is more desirable to give the majority direction before taking any unanimous verdicts. If that is considered appropriate then, instead of being asked about each count in turn, the clerk should ask the jury: “Have you reached verdicts upon which you are all agreed in respect of all defendants and/or all counts?” If, on the other hand, it is considered to be appropriate to take the verdicts on some counts even if the jury may not have reached verdicts on all of them then the clerk can adjust the enquiry to allow for that: “Have you reached a verdict upon which you are all agreed on any count and/or in respect of any defendant?” If the jury answer in the affirmative then the clerk would proceed to ask the jury about each count/defendant in turn and any guilty verdicts can be recorded at that stage.

2. If there are a large number of counts and/or defendants, consideration could be given to inviting the jury to indicate the particular counts and/or defendants in respect of which they have reached a unanimous verdict. If that course is to be adopted, it is important that the jury are told in advance so that they understand what they are being asked to do. It would also be sensible to discuss such a course with the parties. In a case in which there are numerous counts the jury should be told that they may find it helpful to make a written record of the verdicts on each count so that the foreman does not get confused when returning verdicts.

3. Views may vary as to whether verdicts should be taken piecemeal or all at the same time. It is suggested that there is no ‘right’ answer. Taking partial verdicts may have the advantage of resolving some counts leaving the jury free to concentrate on the others. Some judges, however, consider that taking some verdicts in advance of the jury resolving all of them may potentially lead to difficulties. The jury’s assessment of the correct verdict on one count may be influenced by their decision on another and accordingly it may be better to leave the jury in a position to revisit their decision on one count in the light of their resolving another count at a later stage of their deliberations. It is suggested that this is quintessentially an area of judicial ‘feel’ in the context of the circumstances that may pertain in a particular case.

4. If verdicts are taken on some, but not all, counts consideration should be given to the need for orders under s.4(2) Contempt of Court Act 1981 to postpone the reporting of the verdicts initially returned, until the jury have completed their deliberations and returned all verdicts.

Crown Court Compendium - Courts and Tribunals Judiciary

The Crown Court Compendium has been revised

www.judiciary.uk

 

[Parker Knoll]

Yes - quite possibly @Tortoise
I am guessing and it’s only a guess that they have decided unanimously on some/many or a few and they are hashing out the others.
Could be completely wrong, I do know that juries are an unknown science.

 

[Kemug]

I should think that the jurors, having given so much time, blood, sweat and tears to this case, will be determined to finish it off properly, by not rushing to any decisions, and so will be prepared to do it to the best of their ability however long it takes (if only I had thought of that when I made my estimate!)

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Are we allowed to ‘deliberate’ amongst ourselves in this thread? Could we pass the time by starting from baby A maybe and discussing the evidence. Or is that something we need to create our own ‘deliberation room’ for?

 

[Tortoise]

Are we allowed to ‘deliberate’ amongst ourselves in this thread? Could we pass the time by starting from baby A maybe and discussing the evidence. Or is that something we need to create our own ‘deliberation room’ for?

Not if it includes opinions of guilt or innocence. It would have to be in private chat.

 

[bobbymkii]

4. If verdicts are taken on some, but not all, counts consideration should be given to the need for orders under s.4(2) Contempt of Court Act 1981 to postpone the reporting of the verdicts initially returned, until the jury have completed their deliberations and returned all verdicts.

Crown Court Compendium - Courts and Tribunals Judiciary

The Crown Court Compendium has been revised

www.judiciary.uk

Can you even imagine being one of the people who knows some of the verdicts and having to keep -shtum- until the deliberations are finally over? I think I'd burst!

 

[Dotta]

But I really see no point of giving some verdicts earlier.

What's the purpose of it if the Jury has to decide on ALL charges?

So, they decide on some, and work through others till the end.

And then inform the Judge.

Giving the incomplete verdicts might lead to leaks and the whole trial might be in danger.

JMO

 

[Parker Knoll]

No I can’t see any mileage in that either Dotta.
I’m going shopping … PROPER shopping with full WiFi.
My nerves have suddenly kicked in.

 

[Dotta]

No I can’t see any mileage in that either Dotta.
I’m going shopping … PROPER shopping with full WiFi.
My nerves have suddenly kicked in.

Don't forget to take Chester for a walk!
The poor pooch must not suffer b/c of LL trial and patchy WiFi.
JMO

 

[notsure]

The judge's directions on this - (snipped for the relevant parts)

“It would, you may think, be a remarkable and exceptional case in which a jury could say we know everything about what happened in any case and why.

“You are not detectives.

“If you are sure that someone on the unit was deliberately harming a baby or babies, you do not have to be sure of the precise harmful act or acts. In some instances there may have been more than one.

“To find the defendant guilty, however, you must be sure that she deliberately did some harmful act to the baby the subject of the count on the indictment and the act or acts was accompanied by the intent and, in the case of murder, was causative of death.”

[...]

“If you are satisfied so that you are sure in the case of any baby that they were deliberately harmed by the defendant then you are entitled to consider how likely it is that other babies in the case who suffered unexpected collapses did so as a result of some unexplained or natural cause rather than as a consequence of some deliberate harmful act by someone.

“If you conclude that this is unlikely then you could, if you think it right, treat the evidence of that event and any others, if any, which you find were a consequence of a deliberate harmful act, as supporting evidence in the cases of other babies and that the defendant was the person responsible.

“When deciding how far, if at all, the evidence in relation to any of the cases supports the case against the defendant on any other or others, you should take into account how similar or dissimilar, in your opinion, the allegations and the circumstances of and surrounding their collapses are."

Letby jurors told to set aside emotion as baby murders trial winds up

The nurse is accused of murdering seven babies and trying to murder 10 others while working on the neonatal unit at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Thank you for posting this. This is really fascinating and clears up some of the questions I've been wondering about, mainly concerning how they can overcome elements of doubt in some cases, using other counts as supporting evidence. If the jurors keep this direction uppermost in their minds, a unanimous verdict does not seem so unlikely. IMO

 

[Parker Knoll]

He’s having a snooze atm Dotta … we will be out later.
He’s a golden cocker spaniel so always ready for a romp !
Pic for cuteness / stress relief taken on his holibobs.

 

[Dotta]

He’s having a snooze atm Dotta … we will be out later.
He’s a golden cocker spaniel so always ready for a romp !
Pic for cuteness / stress relief taken on his holibobs.

My Azor sends his love Woof Woof

Official photo after a visit to hairdresser.

 

[JosieJo]

I've now no idea I predicted a verdict this week..looking back on other cases I followed..Joanne yeates and Libby squire jury took 6 days and were much more straightforward