UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #5

[Sweeper2000]

The suggestion that a volume of air was deliberately measured doesn’t fit with the thought she was trying to kill is my point. If she wanted to kill and was measuring in accordance with that desire, why a smaller dose in some cases and not others? When presumably a larger dose would be seen to more definitely achieve ambition.

 

[kittythehare]

My initial comment was made to the poster who said accurately measuring an amount smaller than 4ml would be difficult. It would be difficult with a large syringe as those have 2ml graduations for example and you’ll need to looking at them risking being caught. So a small syringe would make it easy to administer exactly how much you wanted to and quickly.

I was following the conversation.
I'm aware.
I dislike quoting more than a single post in a reply.

 

[MsBetsy]

I believe the charges are as follows, 7 charges of murder by AE and two attempts with the rest being other methods. 9 out of 17 babies were allegedly given AE with seven fatalities. I don’t think the suggestion that a smaller than 4ml dose would explain the higher level of lethality. Nothing to suggest a smaller syringe was used as the 4ml threshold was obviously crossed more often than not. Or could two out of nine suspected AE having recovered be explained by those two receiving a smaller dose? Nearly all of the suspected AE happened at the start with baby a and b with the exception of baby I, O and P.

She is charged with 15 counts of Attempted Murder for 10 infants and 7 counts of Murder. There are 17 children and 22 counts, is what I understand the charges to be.

 

[Tortoise]

Of course there is an official approach to how nurses are to interact with the families of patients, biggest one is presumably not to state any personal opinions or to bring up personal matters to them which ofc is unprofessional.

She was being asked a personal question - and she answered for others. IMO.

 

[merrypason]

Of course there is an official approach to how nurses are to interact with the families of patients, biggest one is presumably not to state any personal opinions or to bring up personal matters to them which ofc is unprofessional.

It would be more professional for her to state the agreed upon method than her own opinion and to do otherwise would be seen as selfish and unprofessional.

But she didn't follow this official approach in her actual job with patients to not bring up personal opinions and personal matters? Hence the comment to the mother.

"The baby’s mother said that as she bathed her dead daughter, the alleged murderer was “smiling and kept going on” about how she was present at the girl’s first bath “and how much [the baby] had loved it”, the trial heard." Doctor interrupted nurse Lucy Letby’s attempt to kill newborn baby, court told

So if it's possible for her to unprofessional in her work setting (as commented on by her shift supervisor, and her interactions with parents), we can't assume she remembered to be professional in a police interview. Or if she was indeed professional, it had nothing to do with her being caring, and everything to do with the fact she was in a police interview.

 

[merrypason]

The suggestion that a volume of air was deliberately measured doesn’t fit with the thought she was trying to kill is my point. If she wanted to kill and was measuring in accordance with that desire, why a smaller dose in some cases and not others? When presumably a larger dose would be seen to more definitely achieve ambition.

Because it's a fine balance between being too much to be picked up as suspicious and too little to not kill. Trial and error. All the babies have different constitutions and conditions and different levels of monitoring and care.

It was the same with Beverley Ailitt - some she managed to kill, others she didn't because she used different volumes and didn't always get it right.

 

[JosieJo]

The suggestion that a volume of air was deliberately measured doesn’t fit with the thought she was trying to kill is my point. If she wanted to kill and was measuring in accordance with that desire, why a smaller dose in some cases and not others? When presumably a larger dose would be seen to more definitely achieve ambition.

Firstly we have no idea if her intention was to kill ..or to cause serious harm ...or maybe she didn't care either way as long as she got what she needed ...whether that be ..drama ...sympathy..or whatever "rush" she got ...if she did this.

We do not know if she was interupted? In the times she administration less air ?

We do not know if it was a quick decision and she grabbed the nearest syringe

It the scheme of things it doesn't really matter

The important factors are surely..were the deaths due to foul play and if so is LL the only person who could have carried it out

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Firstly we have no idea if her intention was to kill ..or to cause serious harm ...or maybe she didn't care either way as long as she got what she needed ...whether that be ..drama ...sympathy..or whatever "rush" she got ...if she did this.

We do not know if she was interupted? In the times she administration less air ?

We do not know if it was a quick decision and she grabbed the nearest syringe

It the scheme of things it doesn't really matter

The important factors are surely..were the deaths due to foul play and if so is LL the only person who could have carried it out

IMO this is why the trial is set to last up to 6 months as the defence will need to pull apart every single identified alleged action of LL that the prosecution set out and then raise all the possible doubts and every permutation of what else could have happened.

 

[Sweeper2000]

She is charged with 15 counts of Attempted Murder for 10 infants and 7 counts of Murder. There are 17 children and 22 counts, is what I understand the charges to be.

I think that’s how I have it and wasn’t referring to the counts. I was referring to the counts with either stomach AE or AE as a supposed method. 9 out of 17 children are said to have received some form of air being inserted as a means to kill. Out of those 9 seven are fatalities and I’m trying to ascertain why some but not others recovered. Kind of working with the theory that less than 4ml was administered in those two explaining the recoveries. It’s my belief those two do not fit with the alleged method or the thought that a certain amount of air was deliberately measured because presumably if it had been it would have been fatal.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Attempted murder and murder

Firstly we have no idea if her intention was to kill ..or to cause serious harm ...or maybe she didn't care either way as long as she got what she needed ...whether that be ..drama ...sympathy..or whatever "rush" she got ...if she did this.

We do not know if she was interupted? In the times she administration less air ?

We do not know if it was a quick decision and she grabbed the nearest syringe

It the scheme of things it doesn't really matter

The important factors are surely..were the deaths due to foul play and if so is LL the only person who could have carried it out

“Attempted murder” and “murder” obviously indicate intent to kill.

 

[JosieJo]

Attempted murder and murder

“Attempted murder” and “murder” obviously indicate intent to kill.

Murder does not require the intent to kill

 

[Sweeper2000]

Murder does not require the intent to kill

Murder is defined as the “unlawful taking of human life by another human with malice aforethought” otherwise it is manslaughter.

 

[kittythehare]

Firstly we have no idea if her intention was to kill ..or to cause serious harm ...or maybe she didn't care either way as long as she got what she needed ...whether that be ..drama ...sympathy..or whatever "rush" she got ...if she did this.

We do not know if she was interupted? In the times she administration less air ?

We do not know if it was a quick decision and she grabbed the nearest syringe

It the scheme of things it doesn't really matter

The important factors are surely..were the deaths due to foul play and if so is LL the only person who could have carried it out

Injecting air via any route or mechanism is an intention to kill.
There is no way to spin it.

 

[Tortoise]

Murder is defined as the “unlawful taking of human life by another human with malice aforethought” otherwise it is manslaughter.

How do you not know that?

No, the intent can also be to cause really serious harm.

Murder​

Introduction​

Subject to three exceptions (see Partial Defences to Murder below) the crime of murder is committed, where a person:

• Of sound mind and discretion (i.e. sane);
• unlawfully kills (i.e. not self-defence or other justified killing);
• any reasonable creature (human being);
• in being (born alive and breathing through its own lungs - Rance v Mid-Downs Health Authority (1991) 1 All ER 801 and AG Ref No 3 of 1994 (1997) 3 All ER 936;
• under the King's Peace (not in war-time);
• with intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm (GBH).

Homicide: Murder and Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service

 

[JosieJo]

Murder is defined as the “unlawful taking of human life by another human with malice aforethought” otherwise it is manslaughter.

How do you not know that?

With all due respect I'm well aware of what a murder charge requires...I've followed enough of them.

You do not need the intent to kill for a murder charge

 

[kittythehare]

Murder does not require the intent to kill

Homicide: Murder, manslaughter, infanticide and causing or allowing the death or serious injury of a child or vulnerable adult | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

 

[JosieJo]

Injecting air via any route or mechanism is an intention to kill.
There is no way to spin it.

Most likely yes.
But ...if the person just wanted to cause a collapse by injecting a smaller amount of air ?
If they did die because of the act that would be murder albeit the intention was only to cause serious harm

 

[JosieJo]

Homicide: Murder, manslaughter, infanticide and causing or allowing the death or serious injury of a child or vulnerable adult | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

Murder either has to have the intention to kill

Or

The intention to cause serious harm but it results in death

 

[MsBetsy]

The suggestion that a volume of air was deliberately measured doesn’t fit with the thought she was trying to kill is my point. If she wanted to kill and was measuring in accordance with that desire, why a smaller dose in some cases and not others? When presumably a larger dose would be seen to more definitely achieve ambition.

One reason might be because it didn't work the first or second time for some babies. Baby I had large amounts of air deliberately administered into her stomach via a naso-gastric tube.

She was attacked four times before finally dying, the last attempt with air injected directly into her bloodstream.

So maybe different amounts were used each time until finally working? I wouldn't think it would take much, though.

It seems Baby I was also a 'fighter.'

 

[Sweeper2000]

“With intent to kill or cause GBH” I would also assume you are not suggesting she didn’t have the intention to kill but to cause GBH? which is relevant to what I was saying in those 9 cases of AE.