UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #5

[merrypason]

Nearly everything she has written and is being speculated upon give no indication as to an abnormal person, really nothing at all. Even when she was asked to leave the room isn’t particularly far from what one could/would expect unless you think she is guilty. The language she uses is much more normal than not.

This is your opinion. I personally find it very odd, as did her colleagues - hence the number of messages saying "this isn't like you", "do you good to get away from ITU", "you need a break", "you need to switch off".

As her manager I would certainly have considered her far too emotionally invested and a danger to herself and patients, and suggested a long leave or a break doing simpler tasks. It happens in many other professions and does seem like her colleagues were trying to do the same for her. Sometimes people can get so blinded by their own personal validation in a job, they lose all perspective (that this is all about the patients and families and what's best for them) and need reigning in - that's what it feels like her supervisor was trying to teach her.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I talked about the “lethality” of method upthread and it got me thinking about the AE theory. It was suggested that a lower dose of air might be one of the reasons why some were fatal and others not. It was also stated by a professional that it only takes 4ml of air to potentially cause a fatality. Considering it would be more difficult to administer a smaller amount of air (less than 4ml) than a larger amount with a syringe it would be less likely for a baby to survive if AE was the method, I highly doubt that A individual would measure the amount of air in a suspected murder. It is fitting that AE is the most lethal method but doesn’t fit with the non fatal cases.

Especially with AE being a particularly lethal method, why did some survive a highly lethal method especially being “more at risk than adults” for whom AE is “nearly always fatal” and in addition the likelihood of a dose smaller than “4ml” being administered is less likely than other larger doses.

It’s also interesting to note that if “decompression of the stomach is routine in resuscitation” that this decompression didn’t resolve the cases of alleged stomach AE without a fatality, can someone explain that? It is also the case that in cases of suspected stomach AE there is no other suggested method. It was only a stomach AE suggested as the method and without accompanying intravenous AE I would assume decompression of the stomach to be a successful form of treatment? Why in instances involving only alleged Stomach AE is there a higher level of lethality? I would have assumed it would be less lethal than intravenous AE due to the stomach decompressions given as routine in resuscitation efforts whereas in intravenous AE there is no treatment either specifically or as routine in treatment.

Very interesting. I think it makes sense. Something given as routine in resuscitation efforts would fix the stomach AE preventing death. But it’s actually stomach AE that is the most lethal. Four out of seven fatalities included stomach AE and three of seven include intravenous AE but one case involves both otherwise they are tied.

 

[Tortoise]

The police interview extract does leave me wondering about whether LL held some strong views, perhaps even disapproving views, about the parents of twins A and B.

[...] "She was then asked if that sort of information would change the way she would deal with parents, and she said “no, I would like to think we treat all the parents the same, but you bear in mind what they’ve gone through to get to this point”.”

Using 'we' and 'you' in her answer means she didn't answer the police officer's question about whether it changed how she would deal with parents. More than that, framing her answer from the world point of view shows, in my opinion, she was hiding (consciously or not) her own attitudes - s/he wasn't asking how others would deal with such parents.

UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #5

 

[MsBetsy]

These messages are even more odd to me than I first thought
She seems almost angry she wasn't in room 1
I can understand why the nurse in charge might be a little frustrated if she originally "asked" to go in room 1 and even then kept getting involved with the family.
Even her colleague didn't seem to understand her frustration

I was just reading through those texts again and noticed the same. She just kept going on about it as if trying to convince her colleague that this is what 'she' needed and felt her wishes should be respected. As a poster upthread mentioned, it points to entitlement.

I also thought it odd she described the father on the floor, crying, saying "Please don't take my baby away!"

Then after discussing how horrible it all was, and referring to covering for a nurse for baby A's death, she wrote, 'It's the last time I do you a favour changing shifts! Ha ha!'

 

[merrypason]

Also important to know she was a 25 year old nurse who had only been in the job for 4 years, but was comfortable enough ignoring her shift supervisor's requests to look after her own patient. What makes this more tragic is, if she had listened to her shift supervisor, she wouldn't have interacted with Child C's parents at all. And not created the upsetting incident for them about putting the baby in the vented basket.

It was obviously a case that required experience and empathy from a nurse and her shift supervisor did not think she was the right person for the job - and turned out to be correct.

 

[Music2022]

Considering it would be more difficult to administer a smaller amount of air (less than 4ml) than a larger amount with a syringe

There are syringes of less than 5ml so it’s not hard to measure a smaller amount than 4ml. A syringe of 3ml would be actually small and easier to hide.

 

[JosieJo]

I talked about the “lethality” of method upthread and it got me thinking about the AE theory. It was suggested that a lower dose of air might be one of the reasons why some were fatal and others not. It was also stated by a professional that it only takes 4ml of air to potentially cause a fatality. Considering it would be more difficult to administer a smaller amount of air (less than 4ml) than a larger amount with a syringe it would be less likely for a baby to survive if AE was the method, I highly doubt that A individual would measure the amount of air in a suspected murder. It is fitting that AE is the most lethal method but doesn’t fit with the non fatal cases.

Especially with AE being a particularly lethal method, why did some survive a highly lethal method especially being “more at risk than adults” for whom AE is “nearly always fatal” and in addition the likelihood of a dose smaller than “4ml” being administered is less likely than other larger doses.

It’s also interesting to note that if “decompression of the stomach is routine in resuscitation” that this decompression didn’t resolve the cases of alleged stomach AE without a fatality, can someone explain that? It is also the case that in cases of suspected stomach AE there is no other suggested method. It was only a stomach AE suggested as the method and without accompanying intravenous AE I would assume decompression of the stomach to be a successful form of treatment? Why in instances involving only alleged Stomach AE is there a higher level of lethality? I would have assumed it would be less lethal than intravenous AE due to the stomach decompressions given as routine in resuscitation efforts whereas in intravenous AE there is no treatment either specifically or as routine in treatment.

Very interesting. I think it makes sense. Something given as routine in resuscitation efforts would fix the stomach AE preventing death. But it’s actually stomach AE that is the most lethal. Four out of seven fatalities included stomach AE and three of seven include intravenous AE but one case involves both otherwise they are tied.

It would be just as easy to administer small doses as a neonatal unit would have 1ml and 2.5ml syringes.
That aside a person could get disturbed or panic therefore administering less than planned

 

[Sweeper2000]

The police interview extract does leave me wondering about whether LL held some strong views, perhaps even disapproving views, about the parents of twins A and B.



Using 'we' and 'you' in her answer means she didn't answer the police officer's question about whether it changed how she would deal with parents. More than that, framing her answer from the world point of view shows, in my opinion, she was hiding (consciously or not) her own attitudes - s/he wasn't asking how others would deal with such parents.

UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #5

The “we” is a reference to what they as professionals have been trained to do in these situations. The collectively arrived at and agreed upon method of dealing with these situations. It also suggests she isn’t thinking selfishly or in a self centred way. If she was she would have given her own self centred opinion not the agreed upon way. She is professional.

 

[Tortoise]

The “we” is a reference to what they as professionals have been trained to do in these situations. The collectively arrived at and agreed upon method of dealing with these situations. It also suggests she isn’t thinking selfishly or in a self centred way. If she was she would have given her own self centred opinion not the agreed upon way. She is professional.

Do you know there is specific training, 'collectively arrived at and agreed upon method' in dealing with parents who had perhaps had difficulties conceiving? If not, this should be couched as opinion.

She was asked a question and avoided answering it directly. That doesn't speak to unselfishness or professionality, it's avoidant and indicative that it's a sensitive subject for her, IMO. Moreover, it could be a motive in this case, if she is convicted.

 

[kittythehare]

There are syringes of less than 5ml so it’s not hard to measure a smaller amount than 4ml. A syringe of 3ml would be actually small and easier to hide.

you could use a 100 ml syringe and just draw plunger back 2 or 3 or 10 mls, it doesn't matter what size is used!
The controller of the syringe controls the volume, not the ssyringe itself which is an inanimate object in and of itself.

An inanimate object with graduations to enable measurement of quantity.

 

[kittythehare]

The “we” is a reference to what they as professionals have been trained to do in these situations. The collectively arrived at and agreed upon method of dealing with these situations. It also suggests she isn’t thinking selfishly or in a self centred way. If she was she would have given her own self centred opinion not the agreed upon way. She is professional.

She is anything but!

 

[Music2022]

you could use a 100 ml syringe and just draw plunger back 2 or 3 or 10 mls, it doesn't matter what size is used!
The controller of the syringe controls the volume, not the ssyringe itself which is an inanimate object in and of itself.

An inanimate object with graduations to enable measurement of quantity.

Using a large syringe would possibly look suspicious and always harder to hide becasue to be sure you’re only injecting 2-3-4ml you’ll need to be looking at the graduations. While using a 1ml syringe you can pull back and press knowing the dose wouldn’t be more than a bit over 1ml for example. You could do it in your pocket without looking.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I believe the charges are as follows, 7 charges of murder by AE and two attempts with the rest being other methods. 9 out of 17 babies were allegedly given AE with seven fatalities. I don’t think the suggestion that a smaller than 4ml dose would explain the higher level of lethality. Nothing to suggest a smaller syringe was used as the 4ml threshold was obviously crossed more often than not. Or could two out of nine suspected AE having recovered be explained by those two receiving a smaller dose? Nearly all of the suspected AE happened at the start with baby a and b with the exception of baby I, O and P.

 

[kittythehare]

Using a large syringe would possibly look suspicious and always harder to hide becasue to be sure you’re only injecting 2-3-4ml you’ll need to be looking at the graduations. While using a 1ml syringe you can pull back and press knowing the dose wouldn’t be more than a bit over 1ml for example.

Syringes are not suspicious objects in hospitals, they're everywhere.
If you're trying to kill somebody slowly by injecting air, any syringe larger than required capacity will suffice.
Is my point.

 

[JosieJo]

It's worth noting that only air delivered into the blood stream would be classed as an air embolus.
The other case where air or feed is injected into the stomach are not officially an "air embolus"

 

[Sweeper2000]

you could use a 100 ml syringe and just draw plunger back 2 or 3 or 10 mls, it doesn't matter what size is used!
The controller of the syringe controls the volume, not the ssyringe itself which is an inanimate object in and of itself.

An inanimate object with graduations to enable measurement of quantity.

I would assume that if someone was doing something like deliberately murdering babies you wouldn’t show discretion in volume of air applied especially with an amount lower than 5 ml. Aside from syringes under the 5 ml mark it’s easier to draw more than 4 ml in which would be a very very precise measurement. More likely she just pulled the plunger up than actually measuring the volume and if she did that with any syringe over 5 ml it’s much more likely to draw a likely fatal volume of air in. I also think there are more syringes with volumes over 5 ml ? Again suggesting she would much more likely pick up a syringe over the 5 ml mark.

 

[Music2022]

Syringes are not suspicious objects in hospitals, they're everywhere.
If you're trying to kill somebody slowly by injecting air, any syringe larger than required capacity will suffice.
Is my point.

My initial comment was made to the poster who said accurately measuring an amount smaller than 4ml would be difficult. It would be difficult with a large syringe as those have 2ml graduations for example and you’ll need to looking at them risking being caught. So a small syringe would make it easy to administer exactly how much you wanted to and quickly.

 

[JosieJo]

I would assume that if someone was doing something like deliberately murdering babies you wouldn’t show discretion in volume of air applied especially with an amount lower than 5 ml. Aside from syringes under the 5 ml mark it’s easier to draw more than 4 ml in which would be a very very precise measurement. More likely she just pulled the plunger up than actually measuring the volume and if she did that with any syringe over 5 ml it’s much more likely to draw a likely fatal volume of air in. I also think there are more syringes with volumes over 5 ml ? Again suggesting she would much more likely pick up a syringe over the 5 ml mark.

As a nurse with knowledge of the bore size of UVC and Long lines you would know that it would take a while to push in large amounts of air that wouldn’t be needed.
Also if someone walked in it would be an immediate red flag if using a larger syringe on a tiny baby

 

[Sweeper2000]

Do you know there is specific training, 'collectively arrived at and agreed upon method' in dealing with parents who had perhaps had difficulties conceiving? If not, this should be couched as opinion.

She was asked a question and avoided answering it directly. That doesn't speak to unselfishness or professionality, it's avoidant and indicative that it's a sensitive subject for her, IMO. Moreover, it could be a motive in this case, if she is convicted.

Of course there is an official approach to how nurses are to interact with the families of patients, biggest one is presumably not to state any personal opinions or to bring up personal matters to them which ofc is unprofessional.

It would be more professional for her to state the agreed upon method than her own opinion and to do otherwise would be seen as selfish and unprofessional.

 

[kittythehare]

I would assume that if someone was doing something like deliberately murdering babies you wouldn’t show discretion in volume of air applied especially with an amount lower than 5 ml. Aside from syringes under the 5 ml mark it’s easier to draw more than 4 ml in which would be a very very precise measurement. More likely she just pulled the plunger up than actually measuring the volume and if she did that with any syringe over 5 ml it’s much more likely to draw a likely fatal volume of air in. I also think there are more syringes with volumes over 5 ml ? Again suggesting she would much more likely pick up a syringe over the 5 ml mark.

Do you understand how a syringe functions at all?
Do you know that you can actually inject 50ml of air into a NG tube or a vein with aa 2ml syringe.?
They tend not to self immolate after the first discharge and can be used 100 times or more.