UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #8

[Dotta]

If found guilty, she will have no choice but to deny it for her own safety, because baby and child killers are at risk of being hated in prison. Assuming guilt and failed appeal attempts, I think she will continue to deny it in the hope of convincing fellow cons. The more supporters and friends she has inside, the easier her life will be.

She doesn't strike me as particularly vulnerable, she seems able to speak up for herself - such as when she chastised the nurse who called for help when one of Lucy's babies started tanking. She was also confident enough to insert herself where she was not wanted around grieving parents. She seems able to speak her mind in the text message conversations. She was socially competent enough to be convincing for a long time as a caring NICU nurse, with her colleagues and the babies' families. It's clear from social media pictures that she's tall, making her less physically vulnerable. I don't think she's someone who would ordinarily struggle with bullying. She has hope that she can avoid attacks in prison. This hope would end if she ever admitted that actually, she did torture and kill tiny babies.

IMO, if found guilty, etc etc.

She strikes me as (an alleged) maniacal narcissist.

By the way, her bathing dead babies, dressing them in white clothes and making "memory boxes" reminds me of girls playing with dolls.
Moo

 

[Cando]

Regarding LL’s motivations: I think she just thrived on the drama. As horrible as it may be there is nothing more dramatic than death. Except tiny new borns on the brink of life.
I think she lacks normal emotions and has no feelings that most people would regard as usual.

 

[Anxala]

I've been thinking this for a while as a possible motive but it's the first time I have seen it posted, so thanks for sharing.

- We know she was interested in the show 'One Born every Minute' and 'how we are portrayed'
- We know she was the face of a hospital fundraising campaign, so had received a small amount of public recognition
- She was presumably well aware of colleague Dr Jayaram's growing TV personality

If guilty, is it possible she was hoping that creating these dramatic tragic incidents would attract a documentary to her NN unit, where *she* could be the star?

While nothing can be ruled out in this extraordinary case, and with no disrespect intended, I do feel that theory might be a little bit too out there in terms of possible motivation. Not so much the idea that she might (if guilty, of course) have wanted that sort of attention, more that the 'dramatic tragic incidents' she engineered would more likely result in a police unit, blue lights flashing, turning up rather than a TV camera crew. As a means of entering the world of reality tv and getting her face on the telly, it seems on the improbable side.

But then there's so much improbability surrounding this case so...

 

[Dotta]

Regarding LL’s motivations: I think she just thrived on the drama. As horrible as it may be there is nothing more dramatic than death. Except tiny new borns on the brink of life.
I think she lacks normal emotions and has no feelings that most people would regard as usual.

It seems to me the "Complex of God" - deciding about life and death of the most vulnerable - is the epitome of malignant narcissism.
MN is also associated with mania, superiority complex and lack of remorse.

Moo

https://www.choosingtherapy.com/malignant-narcissist/

 

[Tortoise]

It seems to me the "Complex of God" - deciding about life and death of the most vulnerable - is the epitome of malignant narcissism.
MN is also associated with mania, superiority complex and lack of remorse.

Moo

https://www.choosingtherapy.com/malignant-narcissist/

my goodness, I've just been reading up on that in the last hour myself!

 

[ColourPurple]

I've been thinking this for a while as a possible motive but it's the first time I have seen it posted, so thanks for sharing.

- We know she was interested in the show 'One Born every Minute' and 'how we are portrayed'
- We know she was the face of a hospital fundraising campaign, so had received a small amount of public recognition
- She was presumably well aware of colleague Dr Jayaram's growing TV personality

If guilty, is it possible she was hoping that creating these dramatic tragic incidents would attract a documentary to her NN unit, where *she* could be the star?

If guilty, who knows how her mind works, it's hard to rule any motive out if somebody was deliberately killing babies, as the crime itself is so unbelievable and impossible for ordinary people to even understand.

If guilty it appears that she was happy enough with the drama she was allegedly creating, with or without cameras. And if she's found guilty she'll be the "star" of her very own documentary, I'm sure.

 

[Supernovae]

Since we have only been hearing from the prosecution so far, here is a recap of the defense's Opening Arguments:

Further to that and the following post from Tortoise I wanted to recap some of the cross examination of the nurses regarding her presence at the Baby C collapse:

It seems she didn't mind holding the deceased babies at all and she wasn't as upset as some of the other staff.


Dr Harkness - “At the time this was one of my first neo-natal deaths I had to deal with as a registrar. I was in tears. I required time off work.”

Dead baby had ‘extraordinary’ discoloured patches on skin, Lucy Letby trial told

Quotes from media thread -

The father said Child A was brought to them by Lucy Letby, prior to the child's transfer to Alder Hey for a post-mortem examination.

[The shift-leader] recalled Sophie Ellis "becoming emotionally upset" and the nurse said she advised her to step outside.

"Melanie Taylor, a Band 6 nurse, told the court [...] I can tell you now that Lucy was there. I approached the incubator and she was standing on the opposite side. She was the one that suggested putting in an airway'. [...] I gave this statement a few years ago, but I remember how cool and calm she was at the time. I can tell you that Lucy was there'. "

[Sophie Ellis] adds the parents were then informed. She said she became upset herself as this was "the first time" something like this had happened in her experience, and she found it "overwhelming". Lucy Letby said to her: "Do you want me to take over?" to which she said: "Yes."

--

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, October 28

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

12:09pm

Miss Ellis said there was "always a nurse" in the room looking after Child C, even when she left the room briefly. She said Lucy Letby was in there, and cannot recall if Melanie Taylor was also in there.
12:12pm

Miss Ellis says Child C "could have had" two bradys, as they are quite common.
She said she did not know whether Melanie Taylor was in the room at the time of the collapse.

12:13pm

Miss Ellis tells the court for one of the two bradys, Lucy Letby was in the room for the second one, but not the first.

12:18pm

Mr Myers refers to the 8.46am, June 14 nursing note and said there was nothing prior to the 11.15pm collapse.
He asks why the first bradys are not mentioned.
Miss Ellis: "I would have forgotten to write it - it was a traumatic shift".
Miss Ellis says she would have added the detail of that on her subsequent nursing note.
She says she does not remember if Melanie Taylor was in the room at the start of the collapse.
Mr Myers puts it to Miss Ellis that Lucy Letby was not in there at the time of the collapse, and only arrived later [during the resuscitation efforts].
Miss Ellis: "I don't agree with that."
Mr Myers: "You have placed her there when you spoke to the police several years later."
Miss Ellis: "I don't agree with that."

1:50pm

Ms Taylor said her memory of the collapse was that she did not know where she was at the time Child C deteriorated, but when she arrived at the incubator, Lucy Letby "was already there".
She did not know if anyondy else was in the room at that point.
She recalls: "I think also Sophie was there - as she was caring for him."
Ventilation support was provided via a Neopuff device, and Ms Taylor struggled to get any chest movement for Child C.

2:10pm

Mr Myers: "It was a very busy shift, wasn't it?"
Ms Taylor: "Yes."
Mr Myers says Ms Taylor was not sure she was in the room when the collapse happened.
"The only person you remember [being there] was Lucy?"
Ms Taylor agrees. She adds she assumed Sophie Ellis was also present.
Mr Myers: "It is from your account, Lucy is there, no-one else is present, maybe Sophie?"
Ms Taylor: "Yes."
Mr Myers: "I am going to suggest, you were in the nursery when this happened?"
Ms Taylor says she doesn't believe so.
Mr Myers: "That it was Sophie Ellis who called you?"
Ms Taylor: "It might have been."
Mr Myers: "That Lucy Letby was not there at the start of this?"
Ms Taylor: "I disagree."

2:14pm

Mr Myers says Ms Taylor, in her police statement, said she was "pretty sure" she was "already in nursery room 1", feeding another baby, at the time of the collapse.
Ms Taylor says her memory has deteriorated since then, and what is in her police statement is correct.
Mr Myers says Ms Taylor's police statement said she was called over by Sophie Ellis, and there is no mention of Lucy Letby.
Ms Taylor: "No, but she was there."

2:19pm

Ms Taylor said she read her police statement for the first time this morning and had not memorised everything from it.
She added: "I didn't say Lucy Letby called me over.
"I likely wasn't asked [by police] if Lucy Letby was there.
"Now I have been shown that [statement], I can remember Sophie called me over.
"Years have passed since this has happened."
Ms Taylor said she has not changed her mind about who was present there.
"I tell you now, when I approached the incubator, she [Lucy Letby] was there on the other side."
She added she remembered how "cool and calm" Lucy Letby looked at the time.
Ms Taylor said she hadn't said Lucy Letby was not in room 1 at the time of the collapse.

2:20pm

Ms Taylor tells the court said she didn't think it was necessary at the time to include that information [of Letby's presence] to police.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, October 31

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

12:00pm

The prosecution asks the nurse about Child C's collapse at 11.15pm.
"I do not remember where, but I was not in nursery room 1."
She recalls "a shout for help", but does not remember who called it.
She entered room 1 and saw Melanie Taylor and Sophie Ellis, and a Neopuff device was being administered.
She noticed Child C was not breathing and the heart rate was very low.
The Neopuff gave Child C chest movement, but he did not breathe himself.
Child C had a "mottled" skin appearance, the nurse recalled.
She remembers a crash call being put out, and recalls Lucy Letby being present, but does not recall when Letby entered the room.
She recalled Sophie Ellis "becoming emotionally upset" and the nurse said she advised her to step outside.

12:30pm

Mr Myers asks about Child C's collapse.
The nurse says she was not in room 1 at the time, but saw Sophie Ellis and Melanie Taylor in that room, attempting to assist Child C's breathing with the Neopuff device when she arrived.
The nurse says an initial crash call was put out, followed by one for a consultant.
Mr Myers says the police statement refers to "I think Lucy Letby was in the room by now".
The nurse said she made the statement three years after the incident, and could not recall precisely when Letby had entered.
Mr Myers asks the nurse if she was the one to take an upset Sophie Ellis aside and get her to step down from duty for that time. The nurse agrees.
The nurse said Lucy Letby returned to looking after the other babies "after a number of askings" not to be in the family room, as the nurse and Melanie Taylor were looking after Child C and his parents following the collapse.

12:38pm

The nurse says, from her police interview, she "believed" Sophie Ellis and Melanie Taylor were in room 1 with the Neopuff device when she arrived.
The court hears the response from police was "ok", followed by the nurse saying: "But I...100 per cent couldn't tell you", which the prosecution say meant she was not 100 per cent sure.

 

[ColourPurple]

If found guilty, she will have no choice but to deny it for her own safety, because baby and child killers are at risk of being hated in prison. Assuming guilt and failed appeal attempts, I think she will continue to deny it in the hope of convincing fellow cons. The more supporters and friends she has inside, the easier her life will be...

...She has hope that she can avoid attacks in prison. This hope would end if she ever admitted that actually, she did torture and kill tiny babies.

IMO, if found guilty, etc etc.

Yes, if guilty, she physically tortured and killed tiny babies and emotionally tortured their parents. You can't get much lower than that.

 

[ColourPurple]

She strikes me as (an alleged) maniacal narcissist.

By the way, her bathing dead babies, dressing them in white clothes and making "memory boxes" reminds me of girls playing with dolls.
Moo

It's a kind thing to do IF you're not the one responsible for the babies' death (though I'd still find her eagerness to do so strange, when she wasn't their designated nurse). If it turns out that she was responsible for their deaths then it's beyond sick.

 

[ColourPurple]

Since we have only been hearing from the prosecution so far, here is a recap of the defense's Opening Arguments:...


...Mr Myers addressed the issue of Letby being present at all the apparent collapses and deaths.

He said: “We say there are many occasions when Lucy Letby was simply not there when she had to be present if she was doing the deliberate harm alleged.

Accueil - Château Quintus

Many occasions? It'll be interesting to hear Myers explain when those "many" occasions were. The only one that springs to mind so far is the insulin poisoning, but she wouldn't need to be there for that, once the insulin was in the TPN bag.

 

[Dotta]

I still remember her using the word "FATE" in one of the numerous texts (explaining the death of a child).

Wouldn't it be fateful if she (if guilty) was to spend her life in mental institution under the care of nurses?

Wouldn't she like to be treated with compassion and solicitude by caring staff?

Oh, how the wheel of Fate is spinning!

Moo

 

[Dcflag]

This portion of the defense opening is particularly interesting:

Mr Myers said the evidence outlined by the prosecution was disputed, in particular allegations of air being injected into babies.

Each case was disputed by the defence, with Mr Myers saying "sub-optimal care" was a factor in the cases of
Child A; Child C, who should have been taken to a specialist hospital;
Child D, who should have been given antibiotics hours before she was treated;
Child H; Child J, where the Countess of Chester Hospital was "well out of its depth" in knowing how to treat her;
Child K, who Mr Myers said 'should not have been in the Countess of Chester Hospital in the first place'; and Child N.



Also:

He said the defendant is “adamant” she did nothing to harm children.

“Anyone who approaches this as some kind of a done deal has got this very badly wrong,” Mr Myers said.

“She loved her job. She cared deeply about the babies and also cared for their families.”

I’m not sure I’ve seen the defence really do any kind of disputing against the potential air embolisms. They’ve offered no other feasible explanation for them, or potential other cause of the collapses/rash symptoms/pain signals like babies screaming etc.

You can argue understaffed or sub optimal care all you like, that doesn’t explain what appears to be intended harm caused by injecting air?

 

[chimpface]

I have a feeling this case will have gone on so long, and so hard to follow for the jury with all of the different acts alleged that the defense will be able to create enough doubt that she's found NG.

However I don't think her life will ever be the same again either way. (I have no opinion on G or NG currently)

 

[katydid23]

I have a feeling this case will have gone on so long, and so hard to follow for the jury with all of the different acts alleged that the defense will be able to create enough doubt that she's found NG.

However I don't think her life will ever be the same again either way. (I have no opinion on G or NG currently)

I did think that might be the outcome, at the start of this case.

But now that we have come far enough along, to see the developing pattern, I don't think it will be about medical expertise or individual cases, that create doubt.

When you look at the entire string of infants that [allegedly] suffered sudden, unexpected collapses, and see the obvious pattern of connections to LL, and see the obvious spike in unexplained deaths during that specific time frame---I don't see room for much doubt.

Could it be all a huge web of coincidences that so many of these babies [allegedly] had similar, unexplained purple blotches, and /or sudden insulin spikes or air embolisms? And it hasn't happened since then?

Having this case go on for so long just increases the possibility that this pattern will be recognised, imo.

 

[Tortoise]

I have a feeling this case will have gone on so long, and so hard to follow for the jury with all of the different acts alleged that the defense will be able to create enough doubt that she's found NG.

However I don't think her life will ever be the same again either way. (I have no opinion on G or NG currently)

It might seem like that, but in essence the acts alleged are the same for all the babies so far, barring one. So for babies A to E it's alleged that she injected air into them and it stopped them breathing. Baby F is the alleged insulin poisoning case, and baby E also had an alleged injury to his throat.

I think it only seems more complicated because each case has to hear the evidence of the babies' care in the day leading up to their collapses, because the prosecution has to establish that they didn't die because of the "sub-optimal" care that the defence is claiming. So that's a lot of medical evidence just to set the picture for each baby, but the collapses are all virtually identical.

IMO

 

[Kemug]

By the way, her bathing dead babies, dressing them in white clothes and making "memory boxes" reminds me of girls playing with dolls.

I wonder what LL's mother could tell us about how she played with her dolls when she was a little girl.

 

[Sundial]

A little bit more of an insight into baby G (I think it was mentioned previously but I can’t quite recall, about IVF).

In the article, baby Gs mother talks about her pregnancy following conceiving after IVF and bleeding in her pregnancy. More in the article which I don’t think I’ve actually read thus far in the trial?

'Tiny’ IVF baby left brain damaged after being fed excessive milk by Lucy Letby, court told

A child with quadriplegic cerebral palsy was allegedly attacked by the nurse when she was just weeks old, a court has heard

inews.co.uk

 

[Kemug]

A little bit more of an insight into baby G (I think it was mentioned previously but I can’t quite recall, about IVF).

In the article, baby Gs mother talks about her pregnancy following conceiving after IVF and bleeding in her pregnancy. More in the article which I don’t think I’ve actually read thus far in the trial?

'Tiny’ IVF baby left brain damaged after being fed excessive milk by Lucy Letby, court told

A child with quadriplegic cerebral palsy was allegedly attacked by the nurse when she was just weeks old, a court has heard

inews.co.uk

"I was concerned that Child G had choked on her own vomit while the nurses were stood around chatting" said the father in this article. I wonder if this is indicative of the hospital/nursery culture, or was the father just very upset?

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

Morning guys, I was hopeful we might be back today but then I remembered Croatia v Brazil is the 3pm match today, so a juror may still be covid postive for the weekend...

If we are back I'll be updating as usual

 

[Music2022]

"I was concerned that Child G had choked on her own vomit while the nurses were stood around chatting" said the father in this article. I wonder if this is indicative of the hospital/nursery culture, or was the father just very upset?

This hospital sounds worse and worse. If the culture was to stand chatting and ignore chocking babies and not follow up on test results then it would made a perfect place to commit crimes against babies and go unnoticed.