UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #8

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  • #381
Oh for sure, I have read that too (statistically with Ivf and twins), it seems to be well founded by doctors who mention this too. I think back about the triplets in this case and can’t help but think they were conceived by ivf also and if the twins in this case were also indeed ivf.

Which baby/babies can anyone recall where it was stated “long awaited pregnancy” was this a twin pregnancy? It makes you wonder if it is ivf that links a majority of these cases. But considering the babies which were singleton pregnancies; if anyone knows if children conceived via ivf are more likely to be premature,.. thus naturally would more likely to be in NNU. It’s very frustrating not knowing the relevant points from the reporting.
In vitro fertilization and preterm delivery, low birth weight, and admission to the neonatal intensive care unit: a prospective follow-up study - PubMed

Objective: To compare the risk of preterm delivery, low birth weight, and admission of the newborn to a neonatal intensive care unit (NICU) in women pregnant after fertility treatment and subfertile women with the risk in fertile women.

Patient(s): A total of 20,080 liveborn singletons.

Result(s): After adjustment we found a statistically significantly increased risk of preterm delivery and very preterm delivery in women who conceived after in vitro fertilization/intracytoplasmic sperm injection (IVF/ICSI) compared with fertile women.
 
  • #382
In vitro fertilization and preterm delivery, low birth weight, and admission to the neonatal intensive care unit: a prospective follow-up study - PubMed

Objective: To compare the risk of preterm delivery, low birth weight, and admission of the newborn to a neonatal intensive care unit (NICU) in women pregnant after fertility treatment and subfertile women with the risk in fertile women.

Patient(s): A total of 20,080 liveborn singletons.

Result(s): After adjustment we found a statistically significantly increased risk of preterm delivery and very preterm delivery in women who conceived after in vitro fertilization/intracytoplasmic sperm injection (IVF/ICSI) compared with fertile women.
Interesting. Thank you for this. So the twins were long awaited pregnancies (possible ivf, whilst not directly mentioned, it could be very possible). Baby G as a singleton pregnancy, also IVF as has been reported.
 
  • #383
Interesting. Thank you for this. So the twins were long awaited pregnancies (possible ivf, whilst not directly mentioned, it could be very possible). Baby G as a singleton pregnancy, also IVF as has been reported.
It seems to me she was (allegedly) a maniac on a mission.
If guilty, what a pity she was not properly diagnosed and treated.

You know, as they say:
"Life is beautiful
If the meds are right".

Moo
 
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  • #384
Also just picking up on this again, doesn’t the interviewing officer seem a little surprised she knew this?.. Her response, “known through the nursing handover”. I wonder if it was actually indeed discussed in handover (it would be interesting to know by witnesses if this is the norm at handovers), if the parents had shared this (as they may very well do in their upset).. OR if she’s gone back through the mothers history/notes to obtain this information.


“LL also told detectives that she knew Baby A and his twin sister Baby B were much wanted babies and his parents had waited a long time for them. The interviewing officer then asked “who told you that?” and she replied “it was known through the nursing handover we had”. She was then asked if that sort of information would change the way she would deal with parents, and she said “no, I would like to think we treat all the parents the same, but you bear in mind what they’ve gone through to get to this point”.”
 
  • #385
It is interesting that she spoke about 'fate' and how some of the deaths were attributed to fate.

Some people have criticised IVF as changing fate----declaring it as if IVF changes the fate of the child somehow.[I disagree]
 
  • #386
It is interesting that she spoke about 'fate' and how some of the deaths were attributed to fate.

Some people have criticised IVF as changing fate----declaring it as if IVF changes the fate of the child somehow.[I disagree]
I think the answer to solve this case is in her notes, texts, Police interviews - apart from medical evidence.

She (allegedly) left some crumbs of truth there.

As if her subconsciousness was telling what (allegedly) really happened.
It is the part of the mind that a person is not aware of and thus cannot be controlled.

Am I overthinking this? :rolleyes:
Sometimes my imagination runs riot.
Oh well...

Moo
 
  • #387
It is interesting that she spoke about 'fate' and how some of the deaths were attributed to fate.

Some people have criticised IVF as changing fate----declaring it as if IVF changes the fate of the child somehow.[I disagree]
I thought this too; couples who have been unable to conceive where I have read things such as “it’s wasn’t meant to be” or along those lines way before ivf is (supposedly, I don’t know), more accessible today. It seems to have some bearing when you consider her words doesn’t it. Regardless, I would actually be mortified if my nursing colleague was making reference to “fate” following the death of very unwell patients, particularly tiny infants. It’s such an insensitive, inhumane thing to say, particularly when you work in these kinds of roles. It just strikes me as a deeply in-compassionate thing to say to a bereaved, grieving parent, family or even be saying such things with a colleague. Moo
 
  • #388
"LL: "Hmm well it's happened and that is it, got to carry on. Sorry to moan to you. Not what you want to hear first thing.

Colleague: It’s fine, I want to know. I was there when she came in. More importantly I’m always here for you and it’s not moaning. We have the shittiest job in the world sometimes, and the best.

LL: Absolutely, on a day to day basis it’s an incredible job with so many positives but then sometimes I think how is it such sick babies get through and others die so suddenly and unexpectedly. Guess it’s how it’s meant to be.

Colleague: We’re a good team that give excellent care. We just don’t have magic wands.

LL: I know that. I think there is an element of fate involved, there’s a reason for everything."

--

In other words, LL is telling her colleague these babies that died so suddenly and unexpectedly (A, C and D) weren't the sickest babies. IMO
 
  • #389
"Nurse: “Too sick to move”

LL: "Oh no. Any idea what's caused it?"

Nurse: "Nope. Just seems to be a circ[ulatory] collapse. Chest seems clear."

LL: "Hmm, what can cause that? Is it that she’s been an extreme prem who had long-term inotrope and vent dependency and now she’s older and doing more for herself and it just takes a little bug or something to tip her over as no reserves and chronic lung etc."

Lucy Letby: Nurse made celebration banner for baby before alleged attack
--

So strange that LL didn't think of the overfeeding of milk and loads of air coming up from her stomach, after having her stomach aspirated before her feed, in all her pondering.

IMO
 
  • #390
"Nurse: “Too sick to move”

LL: "Oh no. Any idea what's caused it?"

Nurse: "Nope. Just seems to be a circ[ulatory] collapse. Chest seems clear."

LL: "Hmm, what can cause that? Is it that she’s been an extreme prem who had long-term inotrope and vent dependency and now she’s older and doing more for herself and it just takes a little bug or something to tip her over as no reserves and chronic lung etc."

Lucy Letby: Nurse made celebration banner for baby before alleged attack
--

So strange that LL didn't think of the overfeeding of milk and loads of air coming up from her stomach, after having her stomach aspirated before her feed, in all her pondering.

IMO
All her texts seem such (alleged) "word salads" even to my layperson's eyes.
Moo
 
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  • #391
"Nurse: “Too sick to move”

LL: "Oh no. Any idea what's caused it?"

Nurse: "Nope. Just seems to be a circ[ulatory] collapse. Chest seems clear."

LL: "Hmm, what can cause that? Is it that she’s been an extreme prem who had long-term inotrope and vent dependency and now she’s older and doing more for herself and it just takes a little bug or something to tip her over as no reserves and chronic lung etc."

Lucy Letby: Nurse made celebration banner for baby before alleged attack
--

So strange that LL didn't think of the overfeeding of milk and loads of air coming up from her stomach, after having her stomach aspirated before her feed, in all her pondering.

IMO
Also surprising the colleagues aren’t making the same referencing to the things she’s mentioning in such a detailed, methodological and medical way either. I’m quite surprised really by the way she puts across very articulate reasons in her conversations (almost like what I would expect from a consultant rather than a nurse), and yet her colleague’s conversations with her are a stark contrast. Moo
 
  • #392
"I was concerned that Child G had choked on her own vomit while the nurses were stood around chatting" said the father in this article. I wonder if this is indicative of the hospital/nursery culture, or was the father just very upset?
I'd imagine this was the words of an upset parent trying to blame something.
The baby hadn't ever vomited and wasn't expected to and no nurse no matter how good will be at their patients side continually
 
  • #393
This is a baby that we haven't heard about in evidence yet, so I'm just going from opening speeches on this. Quotes from media thread.


Defence:

Chester Standard:
For Child K, the defence say the tube was dislodged, and the prosecution say that was Letby's doing. "Letby does not agree she did that, nor is she seen to have done that."
The prosecution say Child K had been sedated.
The defence say it is disputed, that Child K was able to move, and there would be evidence to follow on that.
The defence say there was "sub-optimal care" and Child K "should not have been at the Countess of Chester Hospital in the first place", but in a hospital providing tertiary care.

ITV:
The defence say the probable cause of the tube moving was was the child inadvertently doing it herself. They added her case was another example of “sub-optimal care” in that she should have been treated at a more specialist unit


Prosecution:

Chester Standard:
There was not time to deliver at a hospital for this type of maternity delivery care. Dr Ravi Jayaram, paediatric consultant, was present at her birth as a result. [...]

Dr Jayaram was aware the designated nurse was not there, a fact backed up by door swipe data. Lucy Letby was the only nurse in room 1, alone with Child K. [...]

Dr Jayaram found Child K's breathing tube had been dislodged. Child K was very premature, and had been sedated and inactive. The tube had been secured by tape and attached to Child K's headgear.

ITV:
[Baby K] was born at 25 weeks on 17 February 2016 at the Countess of Chester Hospital, weighing just 692g.

She was considered in as good a condition as possible for a baby born that early and was booked into the neonatal unit by Letby.

Around 90 minutes later, as arrangements were being made for the baby’s transfer to a more specialist hospital on Merseyside, Dr Ravi Jayaram was at the nurses station aware Letby was alone with the baby.

[...] he saw Letby standing over the child's incubator as her oxygen saturation level was falling dangerously low.

Dr Jayaram found child K’s chest was not moving and asked Lucy Letby if anything had happened. Letby was said to have replied: "She’s just started deteriorating now."

Mr Johnson said Dr Jayaram found child K’s breathing tube had been dislodged, which can happen in an active baby, but child K was very premature, had been sedated and was inactive.

Later the same morning, Letby was again at child K’s cot calling for help.

She was assisting the baby with her breathing and it was found child K’s breathing tube had this time slipped too far into her throat.

Child K was transferred to another hospital later that day but remained unwell and died two days later.

Letby is not accused of her murder.


Sky News:
At 9am she was transferred to Arrowe Park Hospital in Wirral where she remained unwell and died on 20 February 2016.


Chester Standard:
In police interview, when Dr Jayaram's account was put to her, she said no concerns had been raised at the time.
She said the alarm had not sounded. She said Child K was sedated and had not been moving around.
She also did not recall either any significant fall in saturations or there being no alarm. She accepted that in the circumstances described by Dr Jayaram she would have expected the alarm to have sounded.
She denied dislodging the tube and said she would have summoned help had Dr Jayaram not arrived, saying she was "possibly waiting to see if she self-corrected, we don’t normally intervene straight away if they weren’t dangerously low".
After the interviews - that suggestion made by Lucy Letby was referred to a nursing expert. Her view was that it was very unlikely that a nurse would leave the bedside of an intubated neonate unless they were very confident that the ET tube was correctly located and secure, the baby was inactive and then they would be away only briefly.
The nurse dismissed the idea that a competent nurse would have delayed intervention if there had been a desaturation.
Letby was found to have researched Child K's parents on Facebook in April 2018 - two years and two months after Child K had died. When asked about this, she said she did not recall doing so.

--

Baby K was an hour and a half old. How on earth can the defence criticise the hospital for her being in the unit for that short time while arrangements were being made to transfer her?

The case of baby K interests me because of LL's Facebook search a few months before her first arrest.

And also because baby K had not died on LL's watch, or at the Countess. I don't believe there has ever been any information in the press about investigation into the deaths of babies at Arrowe Park hospital.

It also interests me because she said Dr Jayaram had not raised concerns with her, so she had no reason to suspect that she was under suspicion for what happened that night, 5 months before she was removed from nursing duties.

MOO
 
  • #394
This is a baby that we haven't heard about in evidence yet, so I'm just going from opening speeches on this. Quotes from media thread.


Defence:

Chester Standard:
For Child K, the defence say the tube was dislodged, and the prosecution say that was Letby's doing. "Letby does not agree she did that, nor is she seen to have done that."
The prosecution say Child K had been sedated.
The defence say it is disputed, that Child K was able to move, and there would be evidence to follow on that.
The defence say there was "sub-optimal care" and Child K "should not have been at the Countess of Chester Hospital in the first place", but in a hospital providing tertiary care.

ITV:
The defence say the probable cause of the tube moving was was the child inadvertently doing it herself. They added her case was another example of “sub-optimal care” in that she should have been treated at a more specialist unit


Prosecution:

Chester Standard:
There was not time to deliver at a hospital for this type of maternity delivery care. Dr Ravi Jayaram, paediatric consultant, was present at her birth as a result. [...]

Dr Jayaram was aware the designated nurse was not there, a fact backed up by door swipe data. Lucy Letby was the only nurse in room 1, alone with Child K. [...]

Dr Jayaram found Child K's breathing tube had been dislodged. Child K was very premature, and had been sedated and inactive. The tube had been secured by tape and attached to Child K's headgear.

ITV:
[Baby K] was born at 25 weeks on 17 February 2016 at the Countess of Chester Hospital, weighing just 692g.

She was considered in as good a condition as possible for a baby born that early and was booked into the neonatal unit by Letby.

Around 90 minutes later, as arrangements were being made for the baby’s transfer to a more specialist hospital on Merseyside, Dr Ravi Jayaram was at the nurses station aware Letby was alone with the baby.

[...] he saw Letby standing over the child's incubator as her oxygen saturation level was falling dangerously low.

Dr Jayaram found child K’s chest was not moving and asked Lucy Letby if anything had happened. Letby was said to have replied: "She’s just started deteriorating now."

Mr Johnson said Dr Jayaram found child K’s breathing tube had been dislodged, which can happen in an active baby, but child K was very premature, had been sedated and was inactive.

Later the same morning, Letby was again at child K’s cot calling for help.

She was assisting the baby with her breathing and it was found child K’s breathing tube had this time slipped too far into her throat.

Child K was transferred to another hospital later that day but remained unwell and died two days later.

Letby is not accused of her murder.


Sky News:
At 9am she was transferred to Arrowe Park Hospital in Wirral where she remained unwell and died on 20 February 2016.


Chester Standard:
In police interview, when Dr Jayaram's account was put to her, she said no concerns had been raised at the time.
She said the alarm had not sounded. She said Child K was sedated and had not been moving around.
She also did not recall either any significant fall in saturations or there being no alarm. She accepted that in the circumstances described by Dr Jayaram she would have expected the alarm to have sounded.
She denied dislodging the tube and said she would have summoned help had Dr Jayaram not arrived, saying she was "possibly waiting to see if she self-corrected, we don’t normally intervene straight away if they weren’t dangerously low".
After the interviews - that suggestion made by Lucy Letby was referred to a nursing expert. Her view was that it was very unlikely that a nurse would leave the bedside of an intubated neonate unless they were very confident that the ET tube was correctly located and secure, the baby was inactive and then they would be away only briefly.
The nurse dismissed the idea that a competent nurse would have delayed intervention if there had been a desaturation.
Letby was found to have researched Child K's parents on Facebook in April 2018 - two years and two months after Child K had died. When asked about this, she said she did not recall doing so.

--

Baby K was an hour and a half old. How on earth can the defence criticise the hospital for her being in the unit for that short time while arrangements were being made to transfer her?

The case of baby K interests me because of LL's Facebook search a few months before her first arrest.

And also because baby K had not died on LL's watch, or at the Countess. I don't believe there has ever been any information in the press about investigation into the deaths of babies at Arrowe Park hospital.

It also interests me because she said Dr Jayaram had not raised concerns with her, so she had no reason to suspect that she was under suspicion for what happened that night, 5 months before she was removed from nursing duties.

MOO
Letby was found to have researched Child K's parents on Facebook in April 2018 - two years and two months after Child K had died.

This is a really really long amount of time to remember the name of a baby who wasn't even technically under your care and who was only there for a very short time. Plus as you say, Baby K didn't die under her watch or at the hospital.

So over two years later, you remember the name of the parents to search them, but when arrested a few months later, you don't recall doing it?..
 
  • #395
Also, I know I need to get a life but I've been using this time to read back through the earlier threads on this from when I was not following the case back in 2018. It's really interesting to see where it all began so to speak and the discussions/opinions you guys had.
 
  • #396
Letby was found to have researched Child K's parents on Facebook in April 2018 - two years and two months after Child K had died.

This is a really really long amount of time to remember the name of a baby who wasn't even technically under your care and who was only there for a very short time. Plus as you say, Baby K didn't die under her watch or at the hospital.

So over two years later, you remember the name of the parents to search them, but when arrested a few months later, you don't recall doing it?..
Yep, she had no access to hospital records when she made the Facebook search.

I think she must have kept notes, to have remembered the name of parents who were only at the hospital for mere hours, but parents' names is a very strange thing to keep notes about.
 
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  • #397
Yep, she had no access to hospital records when she made the Facebook search.

I think she must have kept notes, to have remembered the name of parents who were only at the hospital for mere hours but parents' names is a very strange think to keep notes about.
Just my general observation:
Compulsions cannot be controlled (without meds/therapies).
The kept notes must have been a well of info for detectives.

Also re texts

Im really full of admiration for detectives for retrieving the texts from years gone by.
Surely they were deleted by nurses after some time.
Who keeps them on the phone?

And yet, they are all here for Jury to read during the trial.

One should be really careful when writing messages concerning work related matters.

Moo
 
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  • #398
Letby was found to have researched Child K's parents on Facebook in April 2018 - two years and two months after Child K had died.

This is a really really long amount of time to remember the name of a baby who wasn't even technically under your care and who was only there for a very short time. Plus as you say, Baby K didn't die under her watch or at the hospital.

So over two years later, you remember the name of the parents to search them, but when arrested a few months later, you don't recall doing it?..
It’s kind of ironic she also can’t remember searching for these things; but CAN remember the babies that were long awaited/conceived via Ivf from a handover (which was in 2015) when asked about it in 2018. It’s really bizarre she can’t remember searching for most if not all of these babies/their families names, but can recall some very specific details.
 
  • #399
Just my general observation:
Compulsions cannot be controlled (without meds/therapies).
The kept notes must have been a well of info for detectives.

Also re texts

Im really full of admiration for detectives for retriving the texts from years gone by.
Surely they were deleted by nurses after some time.
Who keeps them on the phone?

And yet, they are all here for Jury to read during the trial.

One should be really careful when writing messages concerning work related matters.

Moo
One of my favourite phrases “Say It Forget It, Write It Regret It.”
 
  • #400
Yep, she had no access to hospital records when she made the Facebook search.

I think she must have kept notes, to have remembered the name of parents who were only at the hospital for mere hours, but parents' names is a very strange thing to keep notes about.

Is it possible she kept a journal / diary either on paper or on a device or on a private blog? That maybe she reviewed periodically and reflected on or even angsted / obsessed about?

Some people I know, especially academic types, write down such a lot of day to day information and thoughts and keep it on a semi permanent basis but review it and contemplate it a year or two down the line. I think they like to analyse progression of projects and endeavours but also enjoy looking over the past for personal reasons. Also FB / social media works a bit like that - the ‘memories’ photographs pop up or the ‘on this day you were…’.

JMO MOO
 
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