UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #8

[Tortoise]

Actually I've realised none of it is probably true. She wasn't the designated nurse when the screen was put up at 3.30pm (according to opening speeches).

LL: “Due imms today too. I got her screened this morning after she vomited.
Nurse: Was she still in 4 then?
LL: “Yup and had NN (nursery nurse) all weekend. Looked rubbish when I took over this morning then she vomited at 9 and I got her screened”

I got her screened (x2) - LL not designated nurse
this morning - actually 3.30pm
vomited at 9 - actually at 10.15am

emphasis is on the NN all weekend and looking "rubbish" at handover and LL heroically getting her screened when it was possibly just a privacy thing if other parents were in the nursery. She makes it sound like the screen was necessary to reduce spread of infection IMO

 

[notsure]

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

The court is now being shown Dr Fielding's notes from the morning of 21 September when Child G fell ill. They start with a summary of the baby's health, notes she is premature and has chronic lung disease. Also notes medicines that she was on at the time.

11:25 AM · Dec 14, 2022

 

[notsure]

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Dr Fielding, in questioning from Mr Myers, says he didn't witness the projectile vomiting incident and by the time he arrived on the unit Child G was 'recovering'

11:34 AM · Dec 14, 2022

 

[notsure]

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Dr John Gibbs, who was working as a consultant paediatrician at the Countess of Chester in 2015, is now in the witness box.

11:48 AM · Dec 14, 2022

Dr Gibbs tells the court he attended the neonatal unit and examined Child G after she had projectile vomited and her blood saturations fell to 30%. Dr Gibbs described that as a 'severe desaturation'

11:52 AM · Dec 14, 2022

Dr Gibbs said: 'It’s just unusual for a premature baby who had been feeding entirely satisfactorily since returning from Arrowe Park Hospital to be projectile vomiting'

11:55 AM · Dec 14, 2022

 

[Jazmania]

It will be interesting to see how pivotal the monitor being turned off is to this 2nd attempted murder charge. I think it is a great error by the prosecution to have not found out previously that it was the doctors that switched it off and not Letby. From the opening prosecution statement the monitor being switched off was highlighted as the main incriminating evidence imo.

However I also think that Letby's texts to her colleague about G looking 'rubbish' in the morning and having been off for days could be key. I wonder if the mom will testify that she never told Letby that her baby was off, showing Letby to be lying in order to make the collapse look less sudden. Maybe there will also be more medical evidence to show G vomited up a lot more milk than should have been in her system too.

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

It will be interesting to see how pivotal the monitor being turned off is to this 2nd attempted murder charge. I think it is a great error by the prosecution to have not found out previously that it was the doctors that switched it off and not Letby. From the opening prosecution statement the monitor being switched off was highlighted as the main incriminating evidence imo.

However I also think that Letby's texts to her colleague about G looking 'rubbish' in the morning and having been off for days could be key. I wonder if the mom will testify that she never told Letby that her baby was off, showing Letby to be lying in order to make the collapse look less sudden. Maybe there will also be more medical evidence to show G vomited up a lot more milk than should have been in her system too.

I want to know which two doctors apologised for it being switched off. As the consultant doctor who cannulated Child G did not mention it at all

The consultant doctor said he "could not recall" if Child G's monitoring equipment was switched off during the cannula fitting, but "it is his practice to transfer the sensor from one limb to another or if temporary detachment is required to reattach the monitor as soon as possible."
He added if Child G was not stable he would not have left her.

If he had switched it off, and apologised to the Nurse for doing so, why not say so here? Why did the Nurse not tell LL, or anybody else before now?

 

[Jazmania]

I want to know which two doctors apologised for it being switched off. As the consultant doctor who cannulated Child G did not mention it at all

The consultant doctor said he "could not recall" if Child G's monitoring equipment was switched off during the cannula fitting, but "it is his practice to transfer the sensor from one limb to another or if temporary detachment is required to reattach the monitor as soon as possible."
He added if Child G was not stable he would not have left her.

If he had switched it off, and apologised to the Nurse for doing so, why not say so here? Why did the Nurse not tell LL, or anybody else before now?

Well I would like to know too, but I doubt we will find out through reporting. I would imagine that it would not be the consultant, but 2 junior doctors who had perhaps connected the machine in the first instance.

Do you think the nurse is lying to cover up for Letby?

Perhaps she did tell Letby and others, we don't know who she told.

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

Well I would like to know too, but I doubt we will find out through reporting. I would imagine that it would not be the consultant, but 2 junior doctors who had perhaps connected the machine in the first instance.

Do you think the nurse is lying to cover up for Letby?

Perhaps she did tell Letby and others, we don't know who she told.

I don't necessarily think she's lying no, I am just confused as to how this has only come up now when I presume she has been interviewed before and asked about this day before she ever got near the stand. I think if she told LL then LL would have said in her police interviews, or texts.

She clearly thinks LL is innocent, which of course she is entitled to do so, but I don't think you should read about the case online and then testify in regards to what you've read.

If she is telling the truth, and I hope she is, then it's a little bit of egg on face moment for the prosecution but nothing major in terms of changing instrumental facts.. just odd is all but I may be overthinking it massively!

MOO

 

[notsure]

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Dr Gibbs is recalling the difficulty of fitting a cannula on Child G on the afternoon of 21 September. He said given the level of intensive care she had had in her life, it was difficult to find a vein

12:07 PM · Dec 14, 2022

Dr Gibbs says he cannot remember what room or what type of cot Child G was in, he also cannot remember what he did after fitting the cannula (given this is seven years ago)

12:08 PM · Dec 14, 2022

Asked if she was attached to a monitor, he can't remember but says 'given her problems she should have been on monitoring yes'

12:09 PM · Dec 14, 2022

He says if a sensor from the monitor is taken off a baby's body part - in order to fit a canula - then it should be fitted to another body part. He says 'it shouldn't be left off'...he adds that there 'shouldn't be no monitoring at all'

12:13 PM · Dec 14, 2022

Asked what he did after the cannula was fitted, he says that he doesn't remember but he wouldn't have left Child G alone. He says he would have alerted a nurse on the unit. Asked if there was any subsequent conversations, he says he 'can't remember'

12:15 PM · Dec 14, 2022

Mr Myers is now questioning Dr Gibbs. He asks the medic whether gastro-oesophageal reflux, that Child G was suffering with, could cause projectile vomiting - he says 'possibly'

12:22 PM · Dec 14, 2022

 

[notsure]

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Mr Myers is now asking about the monitor. He asks Dr Gibbs if the monitor is switched off during cannulation - he says 'it shouldn't be'....he adds that he can't remember what happened with Child G's monitor on 21 September
12:28 PM · Dec 14, 2022

Dr Gibbs agrees that it would be a 'serious error' for a baby to be left behind a screen, detached from a monitor and no nursing staff told - but says he cannot remember if he did this
12:36 PM · Dec 14, 2022

Mr Myers puts it to him that this is what happened and cites evidence from a nurse, who cannot be named for legal reasons, who said he and another doctor apologised for doing this. Dr Gibbs says he cannot remember, but adds if the nurse said this then 'it must have happened'
12:38 PM · Dec 14, 2022

 

[squish]

I think the monitor thing is more significant than people are perhaps recognising. It was a major plank, if not the main plank of the second attempted murder charge:

It's not the major part of that attempted murder charge. The fact remains that she was the only one there when Baby G collapsed, regardless of who turned off the monitor. The fact remains that it fits patterns with other collapses. Anyway, if Lucy was there caring for the baby, why hadn't she turned the monitor back on?

I am suspicious of the nurse's assertion about the monitor. I think it ought to be clarified with the doctors she is referring to.

 

[Dotta]

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Mr Myers is now asking about the monitor. He asks Dr Gibbs if the monitor is switched off during cannulation - he says 'it shouldn't be'....he adds that he can't remember what happened with Child G's monitor on 21 September
12:28 PM · Dec 14, 2022

Dr Gibbs agrees that it would be a 'serious error' for a baby to be left behind a screen, detached from a monitor and no nursing staff told - but says he cannot remember if he did this
12:36 PM · Dec 14, 2022

Mr Myers puts it to him that this is what happened and cites evidence from a nurse, who cannot be named for legal reasons, who said he and another doctor apologised for doing this. Dr Gibbs says he cannot remember, but adds if the nurse said this then 'it must have happened'
12:38 PM · Dec 14, 2022

Well, with work culture like this and LL (allegedly) running loose, poor Baby G stood no chance

Moo

 

[notsure]

It's not the major part of that attempted murder charge. The fact remains that she was the only one there when Baby G collapsed, regardless of who turned off the monitor. The fact remains that it fits patterns with other collapses. Anyway, if Lucy was there caring for the baby, why hadn't she turned the monitor back on?

I am suspicious of the nurse's assertion about the monitor. I think it ought to be clarified with the doctors she is referring to.

It's just been reported that Dr Gibbs was allegedly one of them.

 

[squish]

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Mr Myers is now asking about the monitor. He asks Dr Gibbs if the monitor is switched off during cannulation - he says 'it shouldn't be'....he adds that he can't remember what happened with Child G's monitor on 21 September
12:28 PM · Dec 14, 2022

Dr Gibbs agrees that it would be a 'serious error' for a baby to be left behind a screen, detached from a monitor and no nursing staff told - but says he cannot remember if he did this
12:36 PM · Dec 14, 2022

Mr Myers puts it to him that this is what happened and cites evidence from a nurse, who cannot be named for legal reasons, who said he and another doctor apologised for doing this. Dr Gibbs says he cannot remember, but adds if the nurse said this then 'it must have happened'
12:38 PM · Dec 14, 2022

That sounds like it's true, but the doctor is too arrogant to directly admit fault

 

[Sundial]

Agreed, and also IMO disparaging to the mum. Assuming mum did say that to LL, I can't think of anything more normal than a parent expressing happiness that their child is being looked after by someone they're comfortable with. If I were a nurse and heard that, I'd be beaming with pride that someone could trust me to such a degree. Complete amateur speculation here, but part of me wonders if there's something telling in that. Is there a level of "I'm above this person, I know better than to trust a stranger..." feeling? Almost slightly gloating? MOO. I could well be reading things into it that aren't there. Either way, I'm in complete agreement here this is absolutely LL fishing for compliments.

I find this surprising as well, especially as we're seeing the scope of things on the ward that are being discussed via texts and how casually it all seems discussed. The other text I quoted was while LL and a colleague seemed to be expressing dislike of the nursery nurses actions "wishing she had told someone". Part of me finds it hard to believe that doctors not switching on a monitor wouldn't have been brought up by someone, somewhere, even in a similar way to the discussion of the nursery nurse.

The interesting thing with the nursery nurse, (some kind of dislike, discussion etc, who knows) LL states she the nursery nurse didn’t know what to look out for or act on. Yet, the nursery nurse had worked there for over 10 years according to the statements in court. You’d think someone whether qualified or not, working in an environment for over 10 years (some time before LL even qualified) would absolutely “know” what to act on. Moo

 

[notsure]

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Senior nurse Caroline Bennion is now in the witness box.
12:46 PM · Dec 14, 2022

 

[MsBetsy]

Actually I've realised none of it is probably true. She wasn't the designated nurse when the screen was put up at 3.30pm (according to opening speeches).

LL: “Due imms today too. I got her screened this morning after she vomited.
Nurse: Was she still in 4 then?
LL: “Yup and had NN (nursery nurse) all weekend. Looked rubbish when I took over this morning then she vomited at 9 and I got her screened”

I got her screened (x2) - LL not designated nurse
this morning - actually 3.30pm
vomited at 9 - actually at 10.15am

emphasis is on the NN all weekend and looking "rubbish" at handover and LL heroically getting her screened when it was possibly just a privacy thing if other parents were in the nursery. She makes it sound like the screen was necessary to reduce spread of infection IMO

Didn't Letby take over as designated nurse after the 2:00 am projectile vomiting incident?

 

[Supernovae]

Didn't Letby take over as designated nurse after the 2:00 am projectile vomiting incident?

We've moved on from that haven't we? I think we're now dealing with a separate incident a week+ later.

 

[Tortoise]

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Mr Myers is now questioning Dr Gibbs. He asks the medic whether gastro-oesophageal reflux, that Child G was suffering with, could cause projectile vomiting - he says 'possibly'

12:22 PM · Dec 14, 2022

This was yesterday's testimony -

cross-examination -

Gastro-oesophageal reflux can cause projectile vomiting, Mr Myers asks.
Dr Evans says it can, but that was not mentioned as a diagnosis in the Arrowe Park Hospital discharge letter.
It would not have caused the type of vomiting seen, Dr Evans tells the court.

evidence in chief -

The feeding chart for September 5 is shown to the court, which Dr Evans says shows no vomiting, and no evidence of gastro-oesophageal reflux.
He says gastro-oesophageal reflux does not happen out of nowhere.

--

I know we're on to a different date now, so perhaps she was diagnosed between the two events. I wonder if the over-feeding could have caused it later.

 

[notsure]

Dan O Donoghue's last update was nearly 30 minutes ago. Wonder if they have gone to lunch.

I have to go out briefly to walk dogs, but will add more updates in about an hour if appropriate.