UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #35

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  • #1,141
I have only just, accidentally, found this thread. <modsnip - discuss the case, not other members> What I do know is that when important strands of a case are discredited it deserves thorough review and will usually be grounds for a conviction to be put aside and a retrial ordered. In this case we have the following;
Professor Richard Gill, the world expert on the use of medical statistics in criminal cases and author of the Royal Statistical Society guidelines for such cases, expressing his alarm at the incompetent use of statistics in this case.
Dr Shoo Lee, the author of the paper cited in the original trial as supporting injection to cause air embolism, making it clear that his paper did nothing of the sort.
The deliberate editing of internal reports. The original reports looking at events and those present covered both nurses and doctors but the section on doctors was removed before being seen by management.
There are other parts of the trial narrative which have been discredited. None of this means Letby is innocent but it does mean that there was such egregious misbehaviour by others involved in the trial including witnesses, sources of admitted evidence and incompetence by the defence team that no reputable system can sustain the original trial. The defence of it smells rather like that of cases like Klitschko. But perhaps the worst aspect of this case is the progress of the inquiry and appalling behaviour of the inquiry chair who seems determined to ignore the experts now negating the original evidence, despite the likes of Gill and Lee being far better qualified to comment than those called at the trial.
I hope I am wrong but I suspect that, without a retrial, this case will become a stain on the system to rival any in recent years - not because she is innocent but because the sytem is more intent on preserving itself rather than pursuing the truth. And if she is innocent it would mean the guilty (either by intent or by presiding over incompetence) remain to do more damage.

IMO
 
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  • #1,142
This is the kind of thing I was expecting. I don't think this is taken out of context or not what she meant. Notice the casual indifference in the sentence. There is also a degree of flippancy present as well as not addressing the trauma this nurse would inevitably feel at experiencing that. It's very forward thinking almost like a casual shrug of the shoulders at babies passing away. Not much like the caring nurse people thought she was and sorry but "carrying on" as she was known for is not an appropriate response.

"A nurse recalled the moment serial killer Lucy Letby told her she “just wanted to get her first death out of the way”."


I think Lucy may have had some absorption in death and may have been there since young. I don't think she did this out of malevolence or anything like that, you know hated the parents so hurt them using the baby as the tool? Not like that. It's something along the lines of absorption in death I think.
 
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  • #1,143
This is the kind of thing I was expecting. I don't think this is taken out of context or not what she meant. Notice the casual indifference in the sentence. There is also a degree of flippancy present as well as not addressing the trauma this nurse would inevitably feel at experiencing that. It's very forward thinking almost like a casual shrug of the shoulders at babies passing away. Not much like the caring nurse people thought she was and sorry but "carrying on" as she was known for is not an appropriate response.

"A nurse recalled the moment serial killer Lucy Letby told her she “just wanted to get her first death out of the way”."


I think Lucy may have had some absorption in death and may have been there since young. I don't think she did this out of malevolence or anything like that, you know hated the parents so hurt them using the baby as the tool? Not like that. It's something along the lines of absorption in death I think.
The only thing that gives me pause is that she poisoned babies F and L and then went off duty knowing they would continue to be poisoned with the risk of them dying when she wasn't there.

I think her motives are quite complex, what with the number of twin/triplet attacks making up approx. half of her victims.

Then there are the more violent attacks with baby E and baby O, and others with bleeding in their throats, which suggests some kind of rage to me.

But I do agree on some kind of fixation with death mixed in.
 
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The only thing that gives me pause is that she poisoned babies F and L and then went off duty knowing they would continue to be poisoned with the risk of them dying when she wasn't there.

I think her motives are quite complex, what with the number of twin/triplet attacks making up approx. half of her victims.

Then there are the more violent attacks with baby E and baby O, and others with bleeding in their throats, which suggests some kind of rage to me.

But I do agree on some kind of fixation with death mixed in.
I definitely get the anger vibe too. You think there is any room for passive aggressiveness in this? Like when she said "ill deal with it myself".On those insulin cases are we sure she didn't intend to be around them at her next shift? 12 or 24 hour bags ? One might think she anticipated that the insulin would have greater consequences the longer its present in body so the bab would be in a bad way when she got back.

Definitely an interesting point that half of her victims were siblings. What's the potential motivations when it comes to that?
 
  • #1,145
I definitely get the anger vibe too. You think there is any room for passive aggressiveness in this? Like when she said "ill deal with it myself".On those insulin cases are we sure she didn't intend to be around them at her next shift? 12 or 24 hour bags ? One might think she anticipated that the insulin would have greater consequences the longer its present in body so the bab would be in a bad way when she got back.

Definitely an interesting point that half of her victims were siblings. What's the potential motivations when it comes to that?
No she was off after both poisonings. (links to these texts in the media thread)

After baby F on Wed 5th Aug -
LL: "Hope you sleep well, let me know how F is tonight please."
LL: "Hi! Are you going to salsa tonite?"
LL: '"Need to try and find some sort of post nites energy"
6th Aug - LL had a house-viewing appointment.

After baby L on Sat 9th Apr -
Sun 10th Apr - LL receives a message that morning asking if she wanted to work that night or Monday/Monday night. She replies: "Sorry but need some days off now." She adds she could be on call for nights, and would be free for Thursday day/night shifts.

I think she was purposely avoiding working the shifts afterwards.

I think we would need to know who she was trying to hurt with the murders in order to work out her motivations. The babies were clearly dispensable in her mind, and she didn't care what pain they endured, so she's psychopathic, but was she somehow hooked by devastating the parents?

MOO
 
  • #1,146
"Lucy Letby initially failed her final year placement as a student nurse after she was noted to be “cold” and lacking empathy with patients and families, a public inquiry has heard.

Her assessor Nicola Lightfoot, deputy ward manager on the children’s unit at the Countess of Chester Hospital, said it was apparent to her that Letby did not have the “overall characteristics” to become a successful registered nurse.

Giving evidence at the Thirlwall Inquiry into events surrounding the neonatal nurse’s crimes, Ms Lightfoot said: “I found Lucy to be quite cold. I did not find a natural warmth exuding from her which I expect from a children’s nurse."


Very interesting reading, shame I can't quote it all here because of the copyright. Will wait for the transcripts to go up later.
 
  • #1,147
Ah I see you've already linked it on the Inquiry thread Sweeper.

Never mind, it's about LL's personality and skills which is also relevant to the trial discussion so I'll leave it up.
 
  • #1,148
Ah I see you've already linked it on the Inquiry thread Sweeper.

Never mind, it's about LL's personality and skills which is also relevant to the trial discussion so I'll leave it up.

Anyone know why this wasn't presented at her original trial? That's gold dust to the prosecution. That would have gone a long way in painting the picture of her.
 
  • #1,149
Anyone know why this wasn't presented at her original trial? That's gold dust to the prosecution. That would have gone a long way in painting the picture of her.
I think, if they knew about it, it could be problematic at trial stage. This was information gathered three or four years before the indictment period, about a young adult. They could have argued she failed due to nerves or maturity or something. They want convictions based on rock solid evidence of murder/attempted murder, not potentially prejudicial material/information which might be argued to be opinion and end up as an appeal issue.

Her post-it notes were included but there again they deliberately indicated they didn't want to comment on them, they just allowed them to speak for themselves alongside her very odd answers to the police about what they meant, as a supplement to the evidence.

MOO
 
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  • #1,151
I think, if they knew about it, it could be problematic at trial stage. This was information gathered three or four years before the indictment period, about a young adult. They could have argued she failed due to nerves or maturity or something. They want convictions based on rock solid evidence of murder/attempted murder, not potentially prejudicial material/information which might be argued to be opinion and end up as an appeal issue.

Her post-it notes were included but there again they deliberately indicated they didn't want to comment on them, they just allowed them to speak for themselves alongside her very odd answers to the police about what they meant, as a supplement to the evidence.

MOO

Makes sense to me. I can't think that they didn't know that she hD been failed in that last year and hadn't tried to find out why. They would have looked at anything like that and as the assessor would have been the person they spoke to couldn't have been missed.

I did think it may be prejudicial as well and also it's besides the point to a degree. The prosecution narrative was this imo "that there were numerous deaths and incidents at the hospital which were medically unexplainable excluding deliberate harm. Including it we think this is what happened and support it with this evidence". Her personality never actually came into it nearly as much as the facts. Maybe no particular need for it and or the added risk when she seemed to have a good reputation.
 
  • #1,152
On those insulin cases are we sure she didn't intend to be around them at her next shift? 12 or 24 hour bags ? One might think she anticipated that the insulin would have greater consequences the longer its present in body so the bab would be in a bad way when she got

There was a really interesting text convo about baby F that I was hoping we would hear more about in the inquiry . In the blood sugar readings , LL had recorded the only normal reading at 5am and then there was a 3 hour gap before the next reading at 8am by which time it was really low .

LL then texted his designated nurse to tell her how low his 8am blood sugar had been after she’d finished her shift. The designated nurse said how awful she felt and that 3 hours hadn’t seemed a long time to leave it ( bearing in mind the 5am reading had seemed normal) . LL replied to say how that had to think of his “poor heels”.

From that convo it sounded as if LL may have suggested to his designated nurse to give him a break from glucose testing as the heel prick tests were hurting his heels . I think Johnson suggested LL had given a deliberately incorrect reading at 5am to suggest the baby’s blood sugar was higher than it was but we never heard whether he established if she also told his designated nurse not to test for a while to give his heels a break.

If she did then she was deliberately setting up a situation where nobody was aware of how low his blood sugar really was at 5am and nobody would know if it dropped further till the day shift started at 8!
 
  • #1,153
This is really interesting too

Ms Lightfoot also found that Letby’s clinical knowledge was “not where it should be” and that she “struggled” to retain information over calculating dosages of drug medication and also to recognise side effects of common drugs.

Remember during the trial they mentioned that during Baby Ds resuscitation the drug calculation chart that was used to calculate the resus drugs dosage was found to be missing and one of the nurses calculated the dosage herself without the chart and suggested LL should learn how to do it too.

After Child D had died, she recalls having a conversation with Lucy Letby on the resuscitation drugs used.

A chart advising dose levels for the drugs would usually be kept by the child, but this A4 chart, a laminated piece of paper, was missing.

The nurse said that chart was missing, and the resuscitation drugs were administered by calculating the doses with Child D's weight, and using her years of experience.

The chart "eventually turned up", the court hears, as "it must have gone missing in the stress of everything".

Lucy Letby asked the nurse how she knew what dose levels to give, and the nurse explained how she had done so.

 
  • #1,154
This thread is closed.

Please continue discussion at
Thread #36.
 
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