UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #37

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  • #321
I’m not convinced scrapping NHS England has any merit on the LL case and IMO if that gets reached for, it’s due to running out of any other proficient argument!

The defence have always been able to utilise expert witnesses and chose not to,
in the trial. MM has been able to submit evidence to a judicial review body, commissioned to adjudicate merits of appeal. Previous attempts rebuffed due to lack of novel material - the original trial was in depth and had already covered ground that appeared novel to the casual layperson.

It is a defence counsel’s role to advocate in court, not in the press. I would be surprised if his colleagues hadn’t submitted complaints regarding the media frenzy he has instilled in this situation, either to his Chambers or the Bar. All MOO.
And this is the real point! The defence had access to any expert witness in the whole world yet they chose not to present anyone other than a plumber. They even had a medical expert on standby but chose not to use him. The only reason for that could be that the defence felt that his evidence would have harmed her defence.

All of the people on this current panel could have come forward or could have been approached by the defence at any time before or during the investigation and trial. There was a period of absolutely years from LL's arrest until the conclusion of her trial - let alone the retrial on one count.

The single most significant thing we have heard from this panel of "experts" so far has been their assertion that the death of one baby could have been caused, was likely caused, by the mother passing on a condition to the child. This was explored in detail at the trial and was dismissed, even to the point of LL's defence barrister accepting it as fact as not being that case. They clearly haven't read the case history yet claimed to have done so.
 
  • #322
Copied over from un-paywalled live updates from the Telegraph, on the Inquiry thread, related to Mark McDonald's anticipated submission to the CCRC this week -

2:40PM
Lucy Letby’s lawyers will this week pass 11 pieces of evidence to the Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC) as they seek to challenge the safety of her convictions.

These include a series of reports authored by experts which interrogate the evidence on which the nurse was convicted.

The legal team will also refer to comments by Dr Dewi Evans, an expert witness for the prosecution in the case, in which “he arguably undermines his independence as an expert witness”.

Elsewhere, they will highlight alleged failings of the prosecution to disclose pieces of evidence to the defence.

  1. Nineteen detailed reports prepared by sixteen experts from seven different countries which find no evidence of harmful acts committed by Lucy Letby and highlight a litany of errors by the treating clinicians.
  2. Two reports from the United Kingdom’s leading statisticians refuting the premise of the prosecution case of an unexplained spike in deaths and a coincidence of Letby being present when babies are said to have died or collapsed
  3. Three reports, written by nine internationally renowned experts, on the issue of insulin rejecting the hypothesis that exogenous insulin was given to any baby by Lucy Letby.
  4. The failure of the prosecution to disclose to the defence that the police had instructed an expert, met with the expert, taken guidance and advice from the expert and then not proceeded on that advice. This arguably led to the jury being misled on the central thesis of the prosecution case, that there had been a spike in deaths and the staff rota showed Ms Letby being on duty for each incident.
  5. The failure of the prosecution to disclose a medical statement from a treating clinician which could have had a bearing on the defence approach at trial.
  6. Evidence from numerous interviews, podcasts and articles from (expert witness) Dr Dewi Evans since the trial, where he arguably undermines his independence as an expert witness.
  7. The failure to disclose a new report drafted by Dewi Evans twelve months after Ms Letby was convicted of murder. This report addresses the cause of death of one of the babies for which Ms Letby was convicted of murder.
  8. The failure of the prosecution to adduce before the jury the report from the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health (RCPCH) which, following a full review of the neonatal unit, raised several issues concerning suboptimal care.
  9. The failure of the prosecution to disclose to the defence the involvement of a senior coroner’s officer into the investigation of Lucy Letby and the results of her investigation.
  10. The failure of the prosecution to disclose that the coroner investigating the death of one baby (for which Ms Letby has been convicted of murder) did not see important evidence of a hospital procedure which we say ultimately may have led to the child’s death.
  11. The change of position by Dr Evans on a key element of the case against Ms Letby. This, we say, not only may have misled the jury but also the Court of Appeal.
 
  • #323
The failure of the prosecution to disclose to the defence that the police had instructed an expert, met with the expert, taken guidance and advice from the expert and then not proceeded on that advice. This arguably led to the jury being misled on the central thesis of the prosecution case, that there had been a spike in deaths and the staff rota showed Ms Letby being on duty for each incident.
That'll be the statistician the police did not use.

MOO
 
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  • #324
The failure of the prosecution to disclose a medical statement from a treating clinician which could have had a bearing on the defence approach at trial.
IMO, that'll probably be related to one of the consultants, Dr Soni, who treated a non-indictment baby for hypoglycaemia -

her witness statement here
https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0102021.pdf


ETA - my speculation here -

Possibly related to a third suspected insulin poisoning? Surely McDonald would be sensitive to the ongoing police investigation. A medical episode under police investigation is not going to be used at trial to assist her defence. IMO

From August 2023:

"'I believe there is at least one other case of insulin poisoning out there that needs further looking at."

 
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  • #325
By the way, this article explains more accurately how many deaths occurred between 2015 to 2016. There were 13 at CoCH (Letby present for 11 of these). And 4 other deaths where babies born at CoCH were transferred to other units. (I assume 1 of those is baby K and we don't know whether she was present for the other 3). So 17 babies in total. Lucy has been found guilty of murdering or attempting to murder 8 of those and 2 further babies are the subject of ongoing criminal inquiry.

Being a nurse myself I think that other nurses that have a suspicion of babies dying when another nurse has been on duty over a period of time should have been noticed and reported to management immediately.It shouldn't have taken so long and so many deaths to occur before she was caught and investigated.I hope health facilities have been put on notice to have suspicions of other health care people reported right away..
 
  • #326
There is a sad irony that this report came out at the start of 2015 and should have been at the forefront of everyone’s minds

The Freedom to Speak Up review (2015), conducted by Sir Robert Francis highlighted the importance of speaking up in the NHS and ensuring support is in place for individuals to speak up safely and raise concerns in their place of work without fear of reprisals.

In the report (99) he states - I am grateful to those who have shared their experiences … some are so complex that I doubt that even a public inquiry could solve them.

It seems in 10 years we are still waiting
 
  • #327
The hospital has seemingly accepted liability from October 2015!




"On Monday, Andrew Kennedy KC, in his closing submission for the Countess of Chester Hospital NHS Foundation Trust, dismissed calls for a suspension. [...]

Mr Kennedy added that at the start of the inquiry the trust had conceded failings from March 2016 in terms of the immediate response to the concerns about the increase in mortality and the association with Letby.

However he said the trust now accepts the timeframe should be brought forward in light of the evidence to the inquiry which he said suggested concerns among paediatricians had developed to a point that action was required after the death of Child I, a baby girl, in late October 2015.

Mr Kennedy said: “We accept that the correct course of action at the end of October 2015 was for Letby to be excluded from the neonatal unit.

“We recognise the significance of this concession to the parents of children who were harmed or killed by Letby after the beginning of November 2015 and I can only say that the trust is profoundly sorry for the failure to intervene sooner.”

 
  • #328
Barristers are not supposed to be holding pressers and doing the stuff he's doing. This is the UK, not the USA.

Lawyers don't get "registered" as a particular type of lawyer/barrister as far as I'm aware. Do you have a source for that statement?

I don't think that referring to these people as "expert witnesses" is appropriate in the context of this discussion; if a court accepts them as such then fair enough but just because a few people who know about the subject decide to write a paper does not make them so.
I hope you also take issue with the police doing a documentary and throw out the same criticism to them.

Sorry you take issue with the word registered, a bit picky but here we are- the point stands in that there is a bar of human rights and it has been previously shared by another poster that he works with them and other international bars across the globe defending human rights. He also works with the Labour Party and as I’m sure you know Kier Starmer also is fond of his job title as a human rights lawyer.




The letter submitted to the inquiry was from her day to day real life defence team, who work for a small firm- he is just the front man and as part of that role he is doing interviews and press releases- it’s irrelevant whether you think that should be saved for the US and not allowed in the UK, because your opinion nor mine matter.

We also have a definition for what is classed as an expert witness in the UK and again it is not for you to advise me that they are not and I should not call them expert witnesses in a post I write.

 
  • #329
The hospital has seemingly accepted liability from October 2015!




"On Monday, Andrew Kennedy KC, in his closing submission for the Countess of Chester Hospital NHS Foundation Trust, dismissed calls for a suspension. [...]

Mr Kennedy added that at the start of the inquiry the trust had conceded failings from March 2016 in terms of the immediate response to the concerns about the increase in mortality and the association with Letby.

However he said the trust now accepts the timeframe should be brought forward in light of the evidence to the inquiry which he said suggested concerns among paediatricians had developed to a point that action was required after the death of Child I, a baby girl, in late October 2015.

Mr Kennedy said: “We accept that the correct course of action at the end of October 2015 was for Letby to be excluded from the neonatal unit.

“We recognise the significance of this concession to the parents of children who were harmed or killed by Letby after the beginning of November 2015 and I can only say that the trust is profoundly sorry for the failure to intervene sooner.”


That still leaves a 5 month gap prior to November 2015, where having heard a lot more evidence they don’t believe they were culpable.- which seems such a long time for something so serious to not be detected. I’m glad that has been acknowledged, but I’m still unsure why they want to pause the inquiry.
 
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  • #330
That still leaves a 5 month gap prior to November 2015, where having heard a lot more evidence they don’t believe they were culpable. I’m glad that has been acknowledged, but I’m still unsure why they want to pause the inquiry.
If I understood the letter from COCH properly, the hospital is not one of the parties who want the inquiry paused. They want the recommendations released so that the changes can be implemented right away. They also made the point that LL's guilt or innocence is irrelevant because in 2015 there were concerning facts and events that should have been investigated. This is on page 97 and 98 of the submission.
 
  • #331
That still leaves a 5 month gap prior to November 2015, where having heard a lot more evidence they don’t believe they were culpable. I’m glad that has been acknowledged, but I’m still unsure why they want to pause the inquiry.
It's not the hospital that wants to pause the Inquiry, it's the former executives, and now Mark McDonald.

The hospital's written submissions set out why after the death of baby I in October 2015 the paediatricians had raised sufficient concern to have Letby removed and the matter potentially reported to police.



(3) October 2015

39 Dr Brearey undertook a review into Child E’s death in October 2015 [INQ0003296]. That review concluded that Child E likely died of perforated bowel secondary to NEC and that it was unlikely that changes in his management would have altered the outcome. Again, CoCH accepts that that betrays the limitations of paper-based mortality reviews. CoCH also accepts that it would have been helpful for this review (and others) to have been informed by closer involvement of the children’s families. It however recognises Dr Brearey’s evidence that clinical pressures and time constraints mean that this would not be ordinary practice, either at CoCH or elsewhere [Brearey/week10/19Nov/56/16].

40 On 22 October 2015 a meeting of the WCCGB made reference to three unexpected deaths. The minutes were received by Alison Kelly as executive lead [INQ0003223].

41 Child I was murdered by Letby on 23 October 2015. She had been the subject of several transfers between Liverpool Women’s Hospital, the Countess of Chester Hospital and Arrowe Park Hospital. At CoCH she had deteriorated on numerous occasions, something which had given the clinicians treating her the impression she was of fragile health [INQ0102740 §78]. Letby was charged with attacking her and causing her collapse on four occasions. Her death was subject to a Datix report [INQ0000457], referral to the coroner [INQ0002043_0003], a postmortem [INQ0002043_0037], and the CDOP process [INQ0001945]. She was discussed at the neonatal morbidity and mortality meeting on 26 November 2015 [INQ0003288]. On 31 October, Dr Brearey conducted a review of her care [INQ0003286]. A debrief was held on 9 November 2015 [INQ0000429_1543].

42 Dr Brearey’s evidence is that he would have spoken to Eirian Powell on 23 October 2015 about the death of Child I and the association between Letby’s presence and the five deaths since June. That account is entirely consistent both with the evidence of others [Griffiths/week6/16Oct/135/14] and with Eirian Powell’s email to Dr Brearey at 17.25 hours on 23 October which appears to reference prior knowledge of events [INQ0003106]. Attached to that email was a document produced by Ms Powell identifying Letby’s presence at the deaths of Child A, Child C, Child D and Child E [INQ0003189]. There is, in that email, an apparent acceptance of the need for Eirian Powell to escalate the events surrounding Child I to senior nurses within the Trust. It appears there was a failure to do so.

43 On 26 October 2015, Alison Kelly, Ian Harvey, Sian Williams and Ruth Millward attended an SUI meeting. Items for consideration included an NNU case review in respect of Child S and a list of potential claims against the Trust which included reference to the death of Child D [INQ0003614, INQ0008194, INQ0008195]. By this time, the deaths of Child A, Child C, and Child E had been reported on SBAR forms which were forwarded to Alison Kelly and, in the case of Child E, Ian Harvey. Alison Kelly had attended the serious incident review panel of 2 July 2015. CoCH submits that by this date, the increasing mortality on the neonatal ward must have been well known to Alison Kelly and that this should have informed her response to later events.

44 On 27 October 2015, Eirian Powell emailed Dr Brearey [INQ0003107]. That email makes two discrete points. First, Ms Powell gives her and Debbie Peacock’s view that they did not feel there was a connection. In light of Dr Brearey’s evidence as to his conversation with Ms Powell on 23 October 2015, the email of 17.25 on 23 October, and the attachment detailing the nurses on duty for each of the deaths since June, references to a connection are likely to be to an association between Letby and the deaths. Second, it can be seen that Ms Powell’s view is to reject the possibility of any connection and to instead propose that a table including all the doctors that was (sic) involved with the deceased patients on the unit is produced to ensure all avenues have been addressed.

45 CoCH accepts that there is no evidence that Eirian Powell specifically raised Child I’s death, or Dr Brearey’s observed connection between Letby and the deaths of Child A, Child C, Child D, Child E or Child I, with Sian Williams or Alison Kelly as implied by her email of 23 October [INQ0003106]. Instead, by the following Monday, Ms Powell’s response appears to have been to downplay Dr Brearey’s concerns and to explore other explanations for the deaths [INQ0003107]. The significance of the association between Letby and the deaths identified by Dr Brearey appears to have been lost.

46 These submissions will consider the evolving knowledge of the paediatricians between June 2015 and February 2016 in greater detail below. Nevertheless, it is clear that the death of Child I represented a significant change in the level of concern of certain members of the paediatric team as to the cause of the increased mortality since June. Dr Brearey’s evidence was that Child I’s death represented a significant moment that raised my level of concern quite considerably as to the prospect of deliberate harm [Brearey/week10/19Nov/71/15], albeit that he also had a duty to consider other things [Brearey/week10/19Nov/74/18]. Dr Jayaram’s evidence was that on returning to work in November 2015 he became concerned for the first time that Letby could somehow be causing inadvertent or even deliberate harm, although those concerns were tempered by uncertainty as to whether such worries were genuine, difficulties with thinking the unthinkable, an awareness of the risk of confirmation bias and seeing things which weren’t there [Jayaram/week9/13Nov/34/22]. Dr Newby recalled speaking to Drs Gibbs and Brearey about Letby’s presence at the deaths following the death of Child I, but also a recognition amongst them that there was a small pool of nursing staff who were frequently on duty [Newby/week4/3Oct/33/4]. It is also the case that, in the mind of the neonatal lead, those incipient concerns had been drawn to the attention of executives by this time [INQ0103104 §173].

47 The Trust accepts that, at the end of October 2015 when concerns were first openly articulated as to the possibility of deliberate harm, it would have been appropriate for CoCH to exclude Letby pending its own investigations. We do not consider the decision of Dr Brearey (and indeed Eirian Powell) to investigate the deaths themselves at this time to be unreasonable. In the vast majority of cases, concerns around deaths will ultimately have a clinical explanation which can be established by local investigation by those qualified to undertake it.

48 Had those investigations not satisfied the concerns raised, i.e. by providing clinical explanations for the events, then the only body with the skill set and powers to exclude criminality was the Police. The Trust considers that it is an unanswerable hypothetical as to whether any investigations by the Trust at that time, set against an understanding that the deaths had plausible natural explanations and that Letby’s presence was potentially explained by a small number of nurses working frequent shifts, would have resulted in referral to the Police. Nevertheless, the concerns raised, even if underdeveloped and incipient, ought to have been treated with the upmost seriousness.
 
  • #332
Good BBC article here


I feel pretty sad and irritated that its lawyers also for the various ex CoCh managers - Ian Harvey, HR head, nursing director etc that want the Inquiry suspended - of course they do, they’re trying to save their own necks instead of allowing the trusts and the public to learn from failings and develop new systems.

Those guys aren’t going to be trialled for failing to recognise a murderer or non murderer, but not for not providing comprehensive safeguarding and whistleblowing care, and once again putting trust reputation ahead of patient safeguarding concerns…they did not discharge their duties. The reason to pause in the inquiry is because it will be incredibly damming to them IMO and shows just how little empathy or care they have for bereaved families
 
  • #333
Started ploughing through the closing statements- the breakdown and acknowledgement of failures throughout is clear in the COCH input. There are 4 specific references to criticism in the document- twice to the paediatricians, once to record keeping and once to reporting incidents.

 
  • #334
1742249254122.webp1742249292585.webp
Today Letby’s defence team wrote to Lady Justice Thirwall asking her to pause the Thirwall Inquiry until after the case has been considered by the CCRC - which deals with potential miscarriages of justice
 
  • #335
I hope you also take issue with the police doing a documentary and throw out the same criticism to them.

Sorry you take issue with the word registered, a bit picky but here we are- the point stands in that there is a bar of human rights and it has been previously shared by another poster that he works with them and other international bars across the globe defending human rights. He also works with the Labour Party and as I’m sure you know Kier Starmer also is fond of his job title as a human rights lawyer.




The letter submitted to the inquiry was from her day to day real life defence team, who work for a small firm- he is just the front man and as part of that role he is doing interviews and press releases- it’s irrelevant whether you think that should be saved for the US and not allowed in the UK, because your opinion nor mine matter.

We also have a definition for what is classed as an expert witness in the UK and again it is not for you to advise me that they are not and I should not call them expert witnesses in a post I write.

First bolded point; No, why should I? The two are not remotely comparable.

Second bolded point; No there isn't. There is a Bar Human Rights Committee which is a committee (a campaign/lobbying group, essentially) that is part of the Bar Council. There is no such thing as being a "registered" Human Rights lawyer, barrister or whatever, unless you have a source that says otherwise. There is 100% absolutely no Bar of Human rights and barristers are not registered according to specific specialities.

Third bolded point; His job title is not human rights lawyer. At best it's Member of Parliament.

Last bolded point; a person is an expert witness if a court says they are. It has a specific legal meaning and you don't get to call yourself an expert witness just because you think you know what you're talking about. As you will see from your own link, that page confirms that an "expert witness" is someone who advises a court - this panel are not expert witnesses and will not be such until a court accepts them as such. Could you kindly point out the part in the page you linked to which confirms that they meet the definition of expert witness, please?
 
  • #336
I hope you also take issue with the police doing a documentary and throw out the same criticism to them.

Sorry you take issue with the word registered, a bit picky but here we are- the point stands in that there is a bar of human rights and it has been previously shared by another poster that he works with them and other international bars across the globe defending human rights. He also works with the Labour Party and as I’m sure you know Kier Starmer also is fond of his job title as a human rights lawyer.




The letter submitted to the inquiry was from her day to day real life defence team, who work for a small firm- he is just the front man and as part of that role he is doing interviews and press releases- it’s irrelevant whether you think that should be saved for the US and not allowed in the UK, because your opinion nor mine matter.

We also have a definition for what is classed as an expert witness in the UK and again it is not for you to advise me that they are not and I should not call them expert witnesses in a post I write.


A barrister is a just a qualified barrister at the beginning, then some specialise and some do not … it’s entirely up to them.
They don’t “start at anything “
Anyway just a cursory glance at Letbys new crack legal team tells me everything I need to know about them and I LOVE that for her.
 
  • #337
  • #338
The LL case seems to be so highly charged and people who do not know the whole story have accepted viewpoints that have solidified that it is difficult to have any type of conversation about developments. I personally think that such a high profile case has been poorly handled and reported on. It is likely that LL is guilty but there are doubts and her Defence Team did not seem to do a very good job. There have been some high profile cases of innocent people being found guilty in recent years after spending long periods in jail. Could this be another example that will be exposed in the future?
 
  • #339
The LL case seems to be so highly charged and people who do not know the whole story have accepted viewpoints that have solidified that it is difficult to have any type of conversation about developments. I personally think that such a high profile case has been poorly handled and reported on. It is likely that LL is guilty but there are doubts and her Defence Team did not seem to do a very good job. There have been some high profile cases of innocent people being found guilty in recent years after spending long periods in jail. Could this be another example that will be exposed in the future?
I take issue with that. What evidence do you have to demonstrate that her defence was sub-par?

I see no evidence that her team did anything less than the very best they could in the circumstances. If your client is guilty (which she is) then there isn't a lot you can do and you have to deal with the evidence presented by the prosecution whatever that may be.

Her KC is highly experienced and has a very good reputation. The trial lasted for months and it was many months after she was first arrested that it started. They were under no pressure of time and could have called anyone they wanted or present any exonerating evidence they chose or could get hold of.

As to the reporting; I agree that some of it was not the best and things are still oft repeated which are not true. Many media outlets did a very good job, however, especially the Daily Mail. The true facts of how the trial was conducted are out there for anyone who wants to look for them.
 
  • #340
and her Defence Team did not seem to do a very good job.
RSBM

Do you have any examples to back this up?

Letby did not claim ineffective assistance of counsel in her appeal. She used them for her appeal, indicating she was happy with them. Even her new barrister has said he makes NO criticism of Ben Myers KC & the defence team.

nb.,
5. The defence mounted a robust approach to the evidence that was called. Serious allegations were put to the numerous professional witnesses (including expert witnesses) who were called on behalf of the prosecution.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/R-v-Letby-Final-Judgment-20240702.pdf
 
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