UK - Prince Andrew accused of underage sexual relationship, 1999-2002 *settled* #2

  • #1,301
That's an important point, as is the unfolding of the story from paid sex with her bosses client, to rape.

This article, based on an interview with Giuffre, describes a shopping trip for new clothes, getting ready for dinner in her own bedroom at Maxwell's house, flying to several exotic locations, gifted $15k, having dinner, going dancing, and asking to take a photo with Andrew to show her mother.

Giuffre does not say that she wanted a photo to prove anything about Andrew, only that she wanted to show her mother that she had met Andrew. I find it confusing, and I do wonder whether these is evidence to support a rape claim.

It's proof VG met Andrew, and just a picture intended to show her mother.

As Andrew says he has never met VG it shows he's lying. It puts them together.

Nobody in their right mind would convict someone of rape solely on that picture.

But also in that picture is a convicted child sex offender (with hindsight) and allegedly it was taken by another child sex offender.

It's not proof of an offence but it certainly raises questions.
 
  • #1,302
I don't know what to think about the night that Epstein, Maxwell, Andrew and Giuffre had dinner and dancing in London. I do trust that the UK Police are better able to investigate than the US Oversight Committee who, per their letter to Andrew, are basing their interest on Giuffre's book.
They didn't investigate, they just reviewed the complaint and decided no further action was to be taken.
 
  • #1,303
It's proof VG met Andrew, and just a picture intended to show her mother.

As Andrew says he has never met VG it shows he's lying. It puts them together.

Nobody in their right mind would convict someone of rape solely on that picture.

But also in that picture is a convicted child sex offender (with hindsight) and allegedly it was taken by another child sex offender.

It's not proof of an offence but it certainly raises questions.

I think it’s well known that Andrew is a creep and a liar.

So are many thousands of others and neither are crimes.

Yes, VG stated she wanted the photo for her mother.
 
  • #1,304
That's an important point, as is the unfolding of the story from paid sex with her bosses client, to rape.

This article, based on an interview with Giuffre, describes a shopping trip for new clothes, getting ready for dinner in her own bedroom at Maxwell's house, flying to several exotic locations, gifted $15k, having dinner, going dancing, and asking to take a photo with Andrew to show her mother.

Giuffre does not say that she wanted a photo to prove anything about Andrew, only that she wanted to show her mother that she had met Andrew. I find it confusing, and I do wonder whether these is evidence to support a rape claim.


In my state (a world away) it is a serious offense to have sex with a minor due to .... The position of inequality between offender and victim and the lifelong effect on a victim (Link)

Our laws are very much based on British laws. So there may be a UK law that is the same.

Virginia was told who to "service", she was lavished with gifts and trips, she began to think of Epstein and Maxwell as 'parents' who were taking care of her. She had felt unparented and unprotected since she was 10. (as per her book)

If people are looking for rape. they are going to find coercion instead.

imo
 
  • #1,305
I think it’s well known that Andrew is a creep and a liar.

So are many thousands of others and neither are crimes.

Yes, VG stated she wanted the photo for her mother.
I don't really know what your point is, but yes lying can be a crime, and I guess it depends on what you subjectively mean by being a creep to know whether that's a crime too.
 
  • #1,306
This information about 2001 is told by Giuffre in 2011, with an update in 2021. In 2011, she refers to Maxwell and Epstein as "her hosts":

"Sharon Churcher, who flew to Australia to meet Virginia Giuffre and told her story in an article published in The Mail on Sunday on February 26, 2011.
...

Among Giuffre’s memories of far-flung travels on Epstein’s jet was a six-week trip in March 2001 to “Paris, Spain, and Tangier,” with a stop in London, for which she said Epstein paid her $15,000. Landing in London, she, Epstein, and Ghislaine Maxwell were driven straight to Maxwell’s townhouse in the affluent neighborhood of Belgravia. Giuffre was given an upstairs bedroom, where, on their first morning, a “chirpy” Maxwell allegedly jumped on her bed and said, “Get up, sleepyhead, you’ve got a big day. We’ve got to go shopping. You need a dress, as you’re going to dance with a prince tonight.”

“She said I needed to be ‘smiley’ and ‘bubbly’ because he was the queen’s son,” Giuffre said. After a shopping spree at Burberry, they returned to Maxwell’s home, where Virginia showered and dressed before joining her hosts at around 4 p.m. “When I went downstairs, Ghislaine and Jeffrey were in the lounge. There was a knock at the door. Ghislaine led Andrew in, and we kissed each other on the cheek. Ghislaine served tea from a porcelain pot and biscuits. She knew Sarah Ferguson, and they talked fondly about Andrew’s daughters [Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie].”

The four of them went to dinner, then to the private nightclub Tramp, where, Giuffre said, Andrew danced with her. After an hour and a half at Tramp, they returned to Maxwell’s home. “All of us went upstairs, and I asked Jeffrey to snap a picture of me with the prince,” Giuffre told the Mail. “I wanted something to show my mom.”

As she shared her memories, Giuffre brought out a plain envelope filled with photographs. They were snapshots “of her time with Epstein from various trips she had done,” says photographer Michael Thomas, who teamed up with Churcher on the story. “I think there were about a dozen.”

They showed Virginia in Epstein’s world at 17: “shots of her on her own in Santa Fe, on a horse, in the snow at [Epstein’s] Zorro Ranch entrance, and at the Georgia O’Keeffe Museum.”

And there, among the travel pictures, was an extraordinary photograph of her, Prince Andrew, Duke of York, stood smiling, with his arm around her waist; on the other side was Ghislaine Maxwell, flashing a grin."
...

In August 2021, she filed Civil Action No. 1:21-cv-06702, Virginia L. Giuffre v. Prince Andrew, Duke of York, a/k/a Andrew Albert Christian Edward, accusing the prince of sexual assault and rape in the first and third degree when she was 17."

 
  • #1,307
In my state (a world away) it is a serious offense to have sex with a minor due to .... The position of inequality between offender and victim and the lifelong effect on a victim (Link)

Our laws are very much based on British laws. So there may be a UK law that is the same.

Virginia was told who to "service", she was lavished with gifts and trips, she began to think of Epstein and Maxwell as 'parents' who were taking care of her. She had felt unparented and unprotected since she was 10. (as per her book)

If people are looking for rape. they are going to find coercion instead.

imo
These are the UK's Crown Prosecution Service's guidelines on consent. It's based on a 2003 legal definition of consent but it's retroactive, so it is applied to cases occurring before 2003.

This is probably the bit you're interested in:

Screenshot_20251109-222023~2.webp


(I've checked the link and it works.)
 
  • #1,308
In 2011, when Giuffre was interviewed in Australia, she (born: August 1983) was 28 years old. She was no longer a child, and she had a good understanding of meeting Andrew in 2001. At that time, she does not describe that meeting as rape, and she does not describe Maxwell and Epstein as her traffickers.

Investigators have to take everything into consideration, not just the most recent statement of 2021, when the 2001 meeting was described as rape.
 
  • #1,309
In 2011, when Giuffre was interviewed in Australia, she (born: August 1983) was 28 years old. She was no longer a child, and she had a good understanding of meeting Andrew in 2001. At that time, she does not describe that meeting as rape, and she does not describe Maxwell and Epstein as her traffickers.

Investigators have to take everything into consideration, not just the most recent statement of 2021, when the 2001 meeting was described as rape.
A link would be handy, thanks in advance.
 
  • #1,310
A link would be handy, thanks in advance.
I posted the info in #1306

same link as upthread:

 
  • #1,311
I suspect I know the issue that the Met is not quite saying (because it sounds both gross and very much not PR friendly.) They did speak to Virginia. She gave them a full account... and by her account Andrew didn't commit an offence in the UK under the UK laws of the time. (America is a different story, hence the big hints at American law enforcement.)

A year or two later and he absolutely would have, but this was 2001. Pre-Sexual Offences Act (2002), Asylum and Immigration Act (2004) and the Modern Slavery Act (2015).

They are working with the Sexual Offences Act 1956. Which is mainly aimed at pimps/brothals, not john's. Having sex with a 16/17 year old, even paying/knowing she was being paid 15k, was not illegal. The trafficking and prostiution offences would have been on Epstien/Maxwell.

The law at the time narrowly defined coercion as threats, intimidation, deception, or stupification. Which, unless I am remembering wrong, is not the kind of coercion Virginia alleged. She was also under orders to appear 'willing' and by her own account suceeded according to Maxwell, which itself undermines any argument that Andrew reasonably knew she was not consenting.

Well having written that out I feel like I need a shower. It should go without saying that, technically criminal or not, Andrew deserves every bit of his disgrace and any charges they can find to stick him with.

Sexual Offences Act 1956
*Note 'procure' does not mean 'buy' it means arrange, i.e the pimp not the john. Epstein/Maxwell would be guilty of a numerous offences.

Section 30
“It is an offence for any person to procure or attempt to procure any woman by threats or intimidation to have unlawful sexual intercourse either within or without the United Kingdom.”

Section 31
“It is an offence for any person to procure or attempt to procure any woman by false pretences or false representations to have unlawful sexual intercourse either within or without the United Kingdom.”

Section 32
“It is an offence for any person to apply, administer to, or cause to be taken by any woman or girl any drug, matter or thing with intent thereby to stupefy or overpower her so as thereby to enable any person to have unlawful sexual intercourse with her.”
 
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  • #1,312
Maxwell could unlock all of this but for some reason she won’t. It’s almost as though she will go to her grave without saying anything for her protection of Epstein. It’s like she will remain loyal to him forever because she gave him her word and undying love.

Why else would she hold on? She could have had a lighter sentence but she won’t budge. I would have said the truth to keep me from a longer sentence. That is human nature, we see it all the time.
 
  • #1,313
This is interesting. Giuffre admits that she brought girls, whom she calls children, to Epstein knowing that they be used for one purpose alone.

Pyramid schemes usually mean that each person in the pyramid hierarchy is paid ... from the child, to the person who brought the child to Epstein, to Maxwell.

Did Giuffre face charges for procuring?

"The programme showed footage of Ms Giuffre speaking during an interview with the Miami Herald, in which she said:

“It kind of works like a pyramid scheme, Ghislaine brought me in, I brought other girls in, those girls brought other girls in and no matter what Jeffrey constantly had that open revolving door of young women, young teenagers, children I like to call them, coming through his door for one purpose and one purpose alone”.​

page 6
 

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  • #1,314
This is interesting. Giuffre admits that she brought girls, whom she calls children, to Epstein knowing that they be used for one purpose alone.

Pyramid schemes usually mean that each person in the pyramid hierarchy is paid ... from the child, to the person who brought the child to Epstein, to Maxwell.

Did Giuffre face charges for procuring?

"The programme showed footage of Ms Giuffre speaking during an interview with the Miami Herald, in which she said:

“It kind of works like a pyramid scheme, Ghislaine brought me in, I brought other girls in, those girls brought other girls in and no matter what Jeffrey constantly had that open revolving door of young women, young teenagers, children I like to call them, coming through his door for one purpose and one purpose alone”.​

page 6

Even when Virginia went to Thailand for the massage course (and then met her husband and never returned to Epstein and Maxwell) they wanted her to find a specific Thai girl for Epstein. Virginia felt she was finally (mostly) free so she didn't even bother looking for the girl. Though, when Maxwell called her in Thailand, Virginia said she was looking for the girl.

Virginia says that the only thing she felt that she could do about the procuring was be honest with the girls ... tell them they would be given $200-$300 by Epstein but he would expect explicit "favours". Instead of giving them the usual line by the other procurers that the girls would be taught massage.

Epstein went through a lot of young girls because he wanted "services" three times a day.

Source: Nobody's Girl by Virginia Roberts Giuffre
 
  • #1,315
Even when Virginia went to Thailand for the massage course (and then met her husband and never returned to Epstein and Maxwell) they wanted her to find a specific Thai girl for Epstein. Virginia felt she was finally (mostly) free so she didn't even bother looking for the girl. Though, when Maxwell called her in Thailand, Virginia said she was looking for the girl.

Virginia says that the only thing she felt that she could do about the procuring was be honest with the girls ... tell them they would be given $200-$300 by Epstein but he would expect explicit "favours". Instead of giving them the usual line by the other procurers that the girls would be taught massage.

Epstein went through a lot of young girls because he wanted "services" three times a day.

Source: Nobody's Girl by Virginia Roberts Giuffre


Are we assuming that this book is nothing but the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth or that it may also be considered a ‘good read’?
 
  • #1,316
Are we assuming that this book is nothing but the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth or that it may also be considered a ‘good read’?

It is the other side of the story. From Virginia's perspective. After years of living with the physical nightmares, undergoing counselling (psychologist), and having a daughter that she wants protected from predators.

People can believe what they want to believe, but the content seems honest. Virginia doesn't shy away from the things she did. She had just spent years trying to work out why.

I hope Ghislaine Maxwell reads the book.

imo
 
  • #1,317
Did you finish reading it?

Was it a good read?
 
  • #1,318
Did you finish reading it?

Was it a good read?

I am 80% through it now. Yes it is interesting. She walks you through her life - it is not all about Epstein. And I have learned all she did legally against people and when and why.

imo
 
  • #1,319
  • #1,320
Actually, can't anybody give themselves a hyphen?
 

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