GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #11

[BoraBora]

I find it really sad that so many people have dismissed Shauna's claim to have been in a controlling relationship by saying "but she was allowed to go to the shop!" or "how come she was allowed to go on Facebook then?". It's as if the only sort of control that some people are prepared to consider is one where the abused party has literally NO freedom whatsoever.

Assuming what SH says is true regarding their relationship, I am absolutely horrified to think that she lived in this way. Having to ask permission to smoke a cigarette or be allowed a treat? What is she, an animal? Not being allowed to leave the house alone without his permission? What a life for the child, let alone anyone else.

Obviously she may well be hamming some of this up to support her case, but we've heard that some of it is true according to other testimony. Innocent or guilty, I think it's yet another case of another tragic child floundering in the system, without any consistent parenting, leading to yet another cycle of children being taken into care and the cycle starting all over again.

All the families involved in this case are fractured and highly damaged. NM not brought up by his own mother, neither was SH. BW kicked out of the home for being an annoying teenager by her dad (at the age of 15/16 - shocking), and noone seeming to blink an eye. LD's children all being taken into care before she goes on to have 4 more children; how horrific and negligent is that?

I completely agree and I'm really pleased you mentioned all of this. I too was shocked when I heard BW had been thrown out of her home. How sad. And also to hear that her father cut her out of his will just before all of this happened. NM says she didn't know this, but what if she actually did - NM doesn't exactly tell the truth. Also, I hate the way BW has been spoken about, in terms of being rude, abusive and disrespectful, not only by NM and SH, but by her father too. The poor kid. She was just a kid, and by the sounds of it had a tough life. I have found that whole side of things really uncomfortable to be perfectly honest. And I also feel sad for all involved - I really understand about them being fractured and highly damaged.

As regards the case, there are some things we just don't know and probably never will. We DO know that NM took part is dismembering her, but who does the third unidentified DNA belong to? Also there's no actual evidence for 'who' killed her, just NM's word. We don't know the real time of death, again just NM's word. We don't even know if NM killed her because again, it's just his word. What if he's covering for someone? What if he never even killed her, but helped hide and dismember her? His bloody fingerprint would still be on the doorframe if that was the case. I even doubt the dismemberment took place in SH's house because surely there would have been blood in the bathroom somewhere, or sticky tape residue on the tiles had he used plastic sheeting? So again, that part of the story seems to be lies. What if NM has decided he's going to prison anyway for the dismemberment, so has decided to take the blame for the entire thing (using the kidnap story to try to get a lesser sentence), even if he himself didn't kill her? I'm not saying he didn't kill her, only that there's no 'proof' of WHO killed her, so that still remains a question. And what if something else completely different happened? I don't wish to speculate because there are numerous possibilities, and even then it probably wouldn't be the truth. What we DO know is that both NM and SH are lying, but we don't know exactly WHAT it is that they are covering.

 

[Clio]

Do you mean that they initially lied and said they were together in the kitchen, then later came up with the story about SH being in the garden?

Trouble is we don't know what they initially told AG. It seems that SH has always maintained that she was in the kitchen when she heard a door slam and that's what made her assume Becky had gone out. Quite when the details about smoking in the garden and the rabbit emerged, I'm not sure.

The discussion stemmed from a comment NM made in court last week

When his mum Anjie returned, Matthews said he made the "major mistake" of claiming he was in the kitchen when he heard the front door slam.

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Becky-...tory-28078299-detail/story.html#ixzz3q6FWWOip

Obviously (!), he couldn't have been in the kitchen at the same time as he was slamming the front door, so he has changed his story.

 

[Bathsheba]

I don't know if the truth is ever going to be revealed. Such a tragic case.

In a way, BW, NM and SH all came from an unstable family set up. None of them lived with their mothers for very long. Becky was apparently living with DG and AG from the age of 3 iirc, NM was brought up by his grandmother (I wonder why AG could bring up BW but not her own son?) and SH was with foster parents for many years. In that way, I have sympathy for them all as children. Did it lead to a rage and irreversible jealousy felt by NM? I think so. That's not the full story though.

 

[Ashbeck]

In a way, BW, NM and SH all came from an unstable family set up. None of them lived with their mothers for very long.

Not living with your mother doesn't mean you had an unstable upbringing. Plenty of single fathers provide stable upbringings for their children too.

 

[Alyce]

I think the loft is more likely. More space. And could of set up a contamination area with plastic sheeting and duct tape. I fail to see how NM could use a circular saw one handedly. And make clean cuts without the saw jumping against hard objects without any damage to the bathtub. I fail to see why no dna or residue of human bodily fluids were found either. The guy is not a csi officer. Even csi labs have to close down after a case and undergo a 'deep clean' NM wouldn't of had that detail of training of cleansing even in the TA.
We don't know if the attic was a focus for an intensive csi swoop. When NM had them focusing on the bathroom.

MOO

Yes, I still stick with my thought that they used the loft. When KD and JI came round to help move the body parts to Barton Court, NM took them out of the loft and the saw was also in the loft.
Why would NM do the dismemberment in the bathroom and then transfer parts to the loft. Easier to leave everything in the freezer, or even underneath some of the pile of rubbish in any other room in the house.
I also wonder about forensics. I have no doubt the loft was looked at, but as for a deep forensic search, who knows. NM had already indicated the deed was done in the bathroom, so I am assuming they focused all their resources, and money ( the money bit is especially important ) on the bathroom.

 

[mrazda71]

I completely agree and I'm really pleased you mentioned all of this. I too was shocked when I heard BW had been thrown out of her home. How sad. And also to hear that her father cut her out of his will just before all of this happened. NM says she didn't know this, but what if she actually did - NM doesn't exactly tell the truth. Also, I hate the way BW has been spoken about, in terms of being rude, abusive and disrespectful, not only by NM and SH, but by her father too. The poor kid. She was just a kid, and by the sounds of it had a tough life. I have found that whole side of things really uncomfortable to be perfectly honest. And I also feel sad for all involved - I really understand about them being fractured and highly damaged.

As regards the case, there are some things we just don't know and probably never will. We DO know that NM took part is dismembering her, but who does the third unidentified DNA belong to? Also there's no actual evidence for 'who' killed her, just NM's word. We don't know the real time of death, again just NM's word. We don't even know if NM killed her because again, it's just his word. What if he's covering for someone? What if he never even killed her, but helped hide and dismember her? His bloody fingerprint would still be on the doorframe if that was the case. I even doubt the dismemberment took place in SH's house because surely there would have been blood in the bathroom somewhere, or sticky tape residue on the tiles had he used plastic sheeting? So again, that part of the story seems to be lies. What if NM has decided he's going to prison anyway for the dismemberment, so has decided to take the blame for the entire thing (using the kidnap story to try to get a lesser sentence), even if he himself didn't kill her? I'm not saying he didn't kill her, only that there's no 'proof' of WHO killed her, so that still remains a question. And what if something else completely different happened? I don't wish to speculate because there are numerous possibilities, and even then it probably wouldn't be the truth. What we DO know is that both NM and SH are lying, but we don't know exactly WHAT it is that they are covering.

I respect your opinion but, this is a trial not a memorial. A trial is a place for the truth and if the truth is that Becky was "rude, disrespectful and abusive" according to her Dad then that is what needs to be told in court. Darren isn't being disrespectful to Becky's memory, he's just telling the truth.

 

[Clio]

Yes, I still stick with my thought that they used the loft. When KD and JI came round to help move the body parts to Barton Court, NM took them out of the loft and the saw was also in the loft.
Why would NM do the dismemberment in the bathroom and then transfer parts to the loft. Easier to leave everything in the freezer, or even underneath some of the pile of rubbish in any other room in the house.
I also wonder about forensics. I have no doubt the loft was looked at, but as for a deep forensic search, who knows. NM had already indicated the deed was done in the bathroom, so I am assuming they focused all their resources, and money ( the money bit is especially important ) on the bathroom.

I'm not sure NM took body parts out of the loft. He said he took some stuff out of the loft - the saw for example. Not sure if he would have risked handing cling film wrapped body parts to KD to put in a suitcase but who knows.

Also the missing cheque seems to have been in the loft aswell.

I would have hoped, especially after the Tia Sharp case, the loft got as much forensic attention as the rest of the house.

 

[cottonweaver]

First thanks to Tealgrove and PSuspect for those really illuminating posts. ( It chimes with my experience, albeit in an earlier career of young women & girls who have been through awful early life experiences.) I think we are all seeing her as a more 3D character as we grapple with the the whys in all this horror.

I find it really sad that so many people have dismissed Shauna's claim to have been in a controlling relationship by saying "but she was allowed to go to the shop!" or "how come she was allowed to go on Facebook then?". It's as if the only sort of control that some people are prepared to consider is one where the abused party has literally NO freedom whatsoever.

I honestly think on WS ( as opposed to other comments pages) people are interrogating the statements she makes, on a case that hinges on credibility and lies in terms of both their statements. And I think on wSleuths it's natural, especially when the trial is being updating live - posters incl. me are trying to spot the discrepancies and contradictions. I agree wholeheartedly with you that this was a totally dysfunctional relationship. I'm not sure anyone really thinks being able to go shopping or use FB means you can't have been in an abusive reln. as such. ( Everyone is trying to test the statements, his & hers based on their words/body language. She is where the mystery lies just cause she has said she has had zero knowledge, so she is getting, deservedly, a lot of scrutiny.

Assuming what SH says is true regarding their relationship, I am absolutely horrified to think that she lived in this way. Having to ask permission to smoke a cigarette or be allowed a treat? What is she, an animal? Not being allowed to leave the house alone without his permission? What a life for the child, let alone anyone else.

I agree and sadly I think it's scarily common in young relationships these days, in certain sections of society.

Obviously she may well be hamming some of this up to support her case, but we've heard that some of it is true according to other testimony. Innocent or guilty, I think it's yet another case of another tragic child floundering in the system, without any consistent parenting, leading to yet another cycle of children being taken into care and the cycle starting all over again.

I think her childhood sounds appalling & tragic but me thinking she is very complicit in this terrible crime does not stop me being able to visualise the lost child Shauna being passed pillar to post through the care system, abandoned by a whole range of feckless parents & family figures. Prior to this killing, I doubt she went hamming up her victim or poor me status. She is battle hardened and tough. But I believe she is using that now, survival instinct. ( I see it again in the VT interview that CPurple just posted, she smiles so many times, not once, the cosy "sincere" intimacy with the policewoman makes me think of perhaps the meetings she will have had with her social workers over the years. )

All the families involved in this case are fractured and highly damaged. NM not brought up by his own mother, neither was SH. BW kicked out of the home for being an annoying teenager by her dad (at the age of 15/16 - shocking), and noone seeming to blink an eye. LD's children all being taken into care before she goes on to have 4 more children; how horrific and negligent is that?

Hear - hear, on all of that. This, I'm afraid is the reality out there, but me saying that does not make it any less appalling - I'm not throwing my hands up saying "Nothing can be done".

 

[Alyce]

Trouble is we don't know what they initially told AG. It seems that SH has always maintained that she was in the kitchen when she heard a door slam and that's what made her assume Becky had gone out. Quite when the details about smoking in the garden and the rabbit emerged, I'm not sure.

The discussion stemmed from a comment NM made in court last week


http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Becky-...tory-28078299-detail/story.html#ixzz3q6FWWOip

Obviously (!), he couldn't have been in the kitchen at the same time as he was slamming the front door, so he has changed his story.

Makes me wonder, yet again, why there has been no statement from AG. Surely there are several points that could have been confirmed or refuted by her word.

 

[mrazda71]

Yes, I still stick with my thought that they used the loft. When KD and JI came round to help move the body parts to Barton Court, NM took them out of the loft and the saw was also in the loft.
Why would NM do the dismemberment in the bathroom and then transfer parts to the loft. Easier to leave everything in the freezer, or even underneath some of the pile of rubbish in any other room in the house.
I also wonder about forensics. I have no doubt the loft was looked at, but as for a deep forensic search, who knows. NM had already indicated the deed was done in the bathroom, so I am assuming they focused all their resources, and money ( the money bit is especially important ) on the bathroom.

If the dismemberment took place in the loft what reason would Nathan have for keeping Shauna out of the bathroom? And what would be gained by lying about where she was dismembered?

ETA- I am desperate to hear the other 4 give evidence as I think that will clear up some things, IF we can rely on them telling the truth that is ...

 

[mrazda71]

First thanks to Tealgrove and PSuspect for those really illuminating posts. ( It chimes with my experience, albeit in an earlier career of young women & girls who have been through awful early life experiences.) I think we are all seeing her as a more 3D character as we grapple with the the whys in all this horror.

I honestly think on WS ( as opposed to other comments pages) people are interrogating the statements she makes, on a case that hinges on credibility and lies in terms of both their statements. And I think on wSleuths it's natural, especially when the trial is being updating live - posters incl. me are trying to spot the discrepancies and contradictions. I agree wholeheartedly with you that this was a totally dysfunctional relationship. I'm not sure anyone really thinks being able to go shopping or use FB means you can't have been in an abusive reln. as such. ( Everyone is trying to test the statements, his & hers based on their words/body language. She is where the mystery lies just cause she has said she has had zero knowledge, so she is getting, deservedly, a lot of scrutiny.



I agree and sadly I think it's scarily common in young relationships these days, in certain sections of society.



I think her childhood sounds appalling & tragic but me thinking she is very complicit in this terrible crime does not stop me being able to visualise the lost child Shauna being passed pillar to post through the care system, abandoned by a whole range of feckless parents & family figures. Prior to this killing, I doubt she went hamming up her victim or poor me status. She is battle hardened and tough. But I believe she is using that now, survival instinct. ( I see it again in the VT interview that CPurple just posted, she smiles so many times, not once, the cosy "sincere" intimacy with the policewoman makes me think of perhaps the meetings she will have had with her social workers over the years. )



Hear - hear, on all of that. This, I'm afraid is the reality out there, but me saying that does not make it any less appalling - I'm not throwing my hands up saying "Nothing can be done".

Some people do not become battle hardened and tough, some people become fragile and broken.

ETA- I personally don't see cosy sincere intimacy - when you're sat in a cell being questioned by police with tapes and cameras on you, it is anything but.

 

[Alyce]

I'm not sure NM took body parts out of the loft. He said he took some stuff out of the loft - the saw for example. Not sure if he would have risked handing cling film wrapped body parts to KD to put in a suitcase but who knows.

Also the missing cheque seems to have been in the loft aswell.

I would have hoped, especially after the Tia Sharp case, the loft got as much forensic attention as the rest of the house.

I thought the comment was that some packages were handed out of the loft by NM to KD for one final suitcase to be filled.
Also JIs testimony ( or is it the testimony of JIs pal ? ) said that some of the packages were soft - which sounds as though JI also had a hand in packing the final suitcase ?

re the loft, yes I am sure it was searched , but I wouldnt bet on it being gone over inch by inch, not if by that time they had a statement from NM directing them to the bathroom as the scene of the crime. That is where the money and resources would go, imo.

 

[Alyce]

If the dismemberment took place in the loft what reason would Nathan have for keeping Shauna out of the bathroom? And what would be gained by lying about where she was dismembered?

ETA- I am desperate to hear the other 4 give evidence as I think that will clear up some things, IF we can rely on them telling the truth that is ...

We only have NM and SHs word for it that SH was kept out of the bathroom.

The bathroom scenario is one which NM could - just about - do by himself.
The loft scenario - there is no way NM could have got a body up there, up that step ladder, all by himself.
So to keep up his pretence of doing it all alone, he has to pick a spot in the house that would be believable to the Jury as him acting alone.

I am also wanting to hear evidence from JI and DD - that would fill in a huge chunk of what happened that night - from JI particularly, and we should get to know who were the couple mentioned, with the woman shouting at the man.
Was this NM/SH or was it JP/KD or even JP/DD.

I am not sure KD and JP will be called as they have already entered guilty pleas - does anyone know if they can be called ?

 

[cottonweaver]

Yes, I still stick with my thought that they used the loft. When KD and JI came round to help move the body parts to Barton Court, NM took them out of the loft and the saw was also in the loft.
Why would NM do the dismemberment in the bathroom and then transfer parts to the loft. Easier to leave everything in the freezer, or even underneath some of the pile of rubbish in any other room in the house.
I also wonder about forensics. I have no doubt the loft was looked at, but as for a deep forensic search, who knows. NM had already indicated the deed was done in the bathroom, so I am assuming they focused all their resources, and money ( the money bit is especially important ) on the bathroom.

The main thing that dissuades me from the loft is this, from court day Oct 15th ( AFAIK) :

Police in video now looking in loft, using torches to see, officer says "extremely heavily cluttered loft space" "floor to ceiling bags".

Incidentally the jury will have seen the SOCO's photos of the loft.

I have no idea where they did this. I say "they" just based on my experience of using those circular saws.

 

[Cherwell]

I am not sure KD and JP will be called as they have already entered guilty pleas - does anyone know if they can be called ?

They won't of course give evidence as defendants, but I don't know of any reason why they might not be called as witnesses. They were never charged with the main offences after all. Will have to see if I can remember any similar cases.

 

[cottonweaver]

cottonweaver;12155504]First thanks to Tealgrove and PSuspect for those really illuminating posts. ( It chimes with my experience, albeit in an earlier career of young women & girls who have been through awful early life experiences.) I think we are all seeing her as a more 3D character as we grapple with the the whys in all this horror.

mrazda71;12155529Some people do not become battle hardened and tough, some people become fragile and broken.

ETA- I personally don't see cosy sincere intimacy - when you're sat in a cell being questioned by police with tapes and cameras on you, it is anything but.

I agree SOME people. I've seen both. I don't think she is one of the latter in the sense you mean it , but hey this is WS, the diversity of opinions is what makes it valuable.

I agree we are all going to interpret these police interviews differently. When you watch that VT, don't you see all the "signs" of a desire to assist the PC? An almost "we are on the same side" theme, "it's appalling, he is a terrible man, who knew?" The body language leaks an awful lot, in my interpretation. The PC isn't naive, the PC will have been helping to facilitate this.

 

[YidArmyRach]

I agree with all of this. My gut feeling is that SH is a premium manipulator and was likely the main instigator of whatever happened to Becky.
It is a common trait ( well , one that I have seen anyway in a few people I have been unfortunate enough to know over the years ) that the manipulator ( or bully ) will transpose the emotions/actions that he or she has across to the other person when telling their story.
I am not saying that NM was not violent and out of control, I am sure he was, but this would only aid SHs story of being the submissive one, when in reality she is pulling the strings.

I agree. Also, when she wanted out of the relationship, it was said that he hurt himself, rather than her. He stabbed himself with a fork, didn't he. So, when she says she was scared to end the relationship or get away, is there any real evidence that he would be violent to her? Or was it more a case of him doing what she wanted, in order for the relationship to continue - bearing in mind they were living in her house, and he wasn't supposed to be living there. So, he couldn't exactly refuse to move out if she really wanted rid of him.

 

[onthecounter]

A few posters have queried why SH and NM stayed at BW's house for so long.

We don't know when BW was killed during the approx 90 minute time frame, but if it was near the end of that time frame then they may not have had time to hide all evidence and stage the scene of a runaway teen before AG came back. Staying would have given them more time to hide evidence under the nose of AG (cleaning, slipping Becky's phone into pocket etc.).. not particularly risky as AG wouldn't have been suspicious for a good few hours.

 

[LookingForClues]

If the dismemberment took place in the loft what reason would Nathan have for keeping Shauna out of the bathroom? And what would be gained by lying about where she was dismembered?

ETA- I am desperate to hear the other 4 give evidence as I think that will clear up some things, IF we can rely on them telling the truth that is ...

In addition to what Alyce said above, by lying about where the dismemberment happened, you have EVERYONE wondering where it really happened because there's no proof BW was in the house. And no proof SH was involved in the dismemberment. There is no DNA tying SH to it. But if they did it in the loft, chances are very high you'd find DNA from both BW and SH, as well as NM...if you knew to test that room for it.

As for the clutter in the loft, it's pretty simple for them to haul a bunch of crap up there after the fact to make it look like there's no way they used that space for the dismemberment.

 

[Alyce]

I agree SOME people. I've seen both. I don't think she is one of the latter in the sense you mean it , but hey this is WS, the diversity of opinions is what makes it valuable.

I agree we are all going to interpret these police interviews differently. When you watch that VT, don't you see all the "signs" of a desire to assist the PC? An almost "we are on the same side" theme, "it's appalling, he is a terrible man, who knew?" The body language leaks an awful lot, in my interpretation. The PC isn't naive, the PC will have been helping to facilitate this.

I agree, we all see things differently - which is the most valuable part of this discussion.
SH reminds me of other consummate liars I have dealt with in life. The body language,the words used, the things not said, the drawing of the comments back to her, rather than the actual question being asked.
As has been said earlier on this thread, SH will have learnt many tricks of survival , going through so many foster homes. Some people will learn to survive and thrive and take positives from their experience. Others will learn to be duplicitous and cunning to enable them to get by in life.