GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #12

[Tortoise]

Might that account for the small traces of SH's DNA being on the mask? If he used her make up, could that account for DNA transference?

SH's DNA was on the mask without the make up I believe

 

[cottonweaver]

I'm now pondering NM's refusal to have SH's name spoken and to have her removed from his screen in court.

I'm thinking he is the controller in the relationship. He has massive control issues - demonstrated by his hoarding taking over the house so they have to live, eat and sleep in one narrow walkway and bed.

He has worked for 6-7 years? on turning SH into his loyal puppet. He has got her to participate in threesomes and has progressed to talking of kidnap and buying stun guns.

His capture is some come down for him. To suddenly lose his power and hold over SH. He has nothing he can control at that precise time. That is enough to send him into a meltdown, let alone having to deal with the other pressing problem of finding a way of convincing everyone that this was all accidental.

I think he can't bear to even be reminded of SH's existence, now that he has lost her and can't control what she is saying and doing. It's too much like when he had no control over his early life. He is facing his worst nightmare. Being helpless and having lost what he thought would make him complete, even though it wasn't working and he was having to add in more danger and risk to achieve that goal.

BIB - This is interesting T. Presume this just happened today?
Let's hope he is asked back on the stand then before trial is over?
I bet he asks if there are any messages from her , every day and there aren't any.

But I sincerely hope his not -watching -her -on -screen is not because, instead, he can't bear to "see her suffer" akin to not being able to hear her name referenced by the police as they re-read his statement.

 

[mrazda71]

BIB - This is interesting T. Presume this just happened today?
Let's hope he is asked back on the stand then before trial is over?
I bet he asks if there are any messages from her , every day and there aren't any.

But I sincerely hope his not -watching -her -on -screen is not because, instead, he can't bear to "see her suffer" akin to not being able to hear her name referenced by the police as they re-read his statement.

No, it was during his interviews when he confessed

ETA - he didn't want Shauna's name spoken during interview and then as Tortoise says below- during remand hearing etc

 

[Tortoise]

BIB - This is interesting T. Presume this just happened today?
Let's hope he is asked back on the stand then before trial is over?
I bet he asks if there are any messages from her , every day and there aren't any.

But I sincerely hope his not -watching -her -on -screen is not because, instead, he can't bear to "see her suffer" akin to not being able to hear her name referenced by the police as they re-read his statement.

the time when he asked for SH to be removed from his screen was at their remand hearing earlier this year when they were all linked to the court from their separate prisons by video.

 

[Yozzer]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before. On the UK and Eire Database, there are some comments today saying that BWs bedroom window was open on the day of her murder, leading to speculation that SH could not have failed to hear the struggle upstairs whilst she was outside in the garden. Not sure whether that came out in court today.

 

[cottonweaver]

How do we know that she was "cool, calm and collected"? We can't tell from a 'tweet' what her demeanor was while being cross examined? Or has it been said that's how she was and I've missed it?

In hindsight, maybe we should've set up a rota and had a Websleuther in the gallery each day, reporting back

BIB I'm not volunteering mrazda!

I appreciate yourpoint. Yes I have no idea what her physical demeanour was as she spoke but I have just read every bit of dialogue of part 2 and it's not much different to...erm... reading a script for radio? Also the journalists usually manage to add in, for spice, if there are any meaningful looks, sobs, trembles and suspenseful pauses, stumbles - didn't see any of those remarks across all those news feeds on here.

But to really answer your question properly I'd need to re-paste everyone's re-tweets/pastes back up here and BIB/annotate all the examples - sincerely, I would be at it for hours and everyone else would be really bored. So instead, to generalise she's calm cause she doesn't get rattled whatever the question or it's ridiculousness, she is cool because she stays rational and gives cunning justifications. Collected , sticks to yes and no, doesn't qualify. Absolutely true, she may go back to the cell and cry herself to sleep at night ........

If she hadn't got herself involved in such a heinous crime (to whatever extent her guilt) I would take my hat off to her, she's given a good performance considering the charges.
(FWIW I've been a witness - for the Pros. ahem - in a couple of cases, in one I was terrified and in the 2nd I was still pretty nervous.I did fine but she she did way better than me considering the stuff she is charged with )

Nevertheless despite her performance under cross, she has made inconsistent statements about little details that contradict each other. Plus I'd wager that she has come across badly to the jury .....and that jury will be saying similar things to WSers...... but unless something constructive happens next, she is going to "get off". JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

[FONT=open_sans]

Hoare said she was prompted to get back in touch with her family because Becky's disappearance made her realise if she went missing "nobody would worry".

While her and Matthews were on their way to the reunion, police called asking if they could visit their home - but the pair said they had "plans" and refused, the court heard.

She said: "Because of the situation that was going on I kind of just felt with everyone so worried and concerned Becky-wise, what was going on, I realised that if I had gone, there would be nobody to worry where I was and be concerned.

"I don't know, even though the family (Becky's) didn't always get on extremely well, the situation just brought them all together. I wanted that."

[/FONT]

I think that final line says so much about SH. While everyone else is worried and concerned about Becky being missing, rather than feeling worried too or feeling upset at how upset Becky's family was, her reaction seems to be one of ... envy! Envious that nobody would miss her if she was missing , envious that in this horrible worrying time the family were all pulling together and that SHE wanted that.

" I wanted that!"

She was jealous of Becky when Becky was alive and seemingly still jealous of her when she was dead.

 

[cottonweaver]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before. On the UK and Eire Database, there are some comments today saying that BWs bedroom window was open on the day of her murder, leading to speculation that SH could not have failed to hear the struggle upstairs whilst she was outside in the garden. Not sure whether that came out in court today.

I saw that . I hope that is pointed out to her tomorrow. Now she has also mentioned "faint music" from Becky's room. Previously I assumed it would be loud music so she could say it drowned out any noises. A noiseless death struggle in Becky's room.
yeah right..... that'll go down well with the jury.
But some proven lies need to be established in order for directions to set aside testimony due to being a "non-credible" witness.

 

[cottonweaver]

I think that final line says so much about SH. While everyone else is worried and concerned about Becky being missing, rather than feeling worried too or feeling upset at how upset Becky's family was, her reaction seems to be one of ... envy! Envious that nobody would miss her if she was missing , envious that in this horrible worrying time the family were all pulling together and that SHE wanted that.

" I wanted that!"

She was jealous of Becky when Becky was alive and seemingly still jealous of her when she was dead.

yes it's very evocative. Which means she genuinely wanted to see her Mum. Or it is "leakage", unintentional kernel of truth mixed in with this ploy to go go suddenly see Mum after 5 years....

What also struck me reading all the afternoon posts is with NM & SH spending 3 days a week, likely all day, at CL, imagine the tension as BW would often be there too or coming & going. The competing for attention from AG too.

 

[Tortoise]

Another experience to share from my jury service if anyone is interested. hope I'm not boring you with too many posts.

It was THE hardest thing I think I have ever done in my life. You are not allowed to talk to other jurors about anything connected to the trial, unless you are all together in a group. There is no opportunity to do that, since when you are sent off for a break or to have lunch you are put together with all the other jurors from other trials going on. This was at the Old Bailey where there are something in excess of 18 trials going on in different courtrooms.

So you have this mighty weight on your shoulders, can't discuss it at home or with anyone. It goes round and round in your head - I must get this decision right - what if I am wrong? You even end up dreaming about it after 6 weeks or so. It is a horrendous responsibility (but valuable too).

And then, finally you are sent off to deliberate in a locked room. and for the first time you can all talk.

I really was amazed and relieved to discover that every single jury member felt this same sense of responsibility and pressure to get it right, but the most interesting part about it was that we all believed and disbelieved exactly the same things. I know there are cases where jurors can't reach a unanimous decision and that a majority decision is accepted or the case gets sent for retrial, but my experience was that we had all reached the same conclusions on our own before coming together, without having to discuss why. We did discuss why but it was just for completeness more than anything.

It really gave me a lot of faith in the jury system, you have a complete range of ages, ethnic backgrounds and social backgrounds.

I think we have to give the jury more credit than we are. The prosecutor may seem from where we are standing to be not asking the right questions, but the jury won't have missed anything.

 

[ColourPurple]

How do we know that she was "cool, calm and collected"? We can't tell from a 'tweet' what her demeanor was while being cross examined? Or has it been said that's how she was and I've missed it?

In hindsight, maybe we should've set up a rota and had a Websleuther in the gallery each day, reporting back

On UK & Eire somebody asked what her composure was like and was told she was very confident and not flustered.

 

[ColourPurple]

yes it's very evocative. Which means she genuinely wanted to see her Mum. Or it is "leakage", unintentional kernel of truth mixed in with this ploy to go go suddenly see Mum after 5 years....

What also struck me reading all the afternoon posts is with NM & SH spending 3 days a week, likely all day, at CL, imagine the tension as BW would often be there too or coming & going. The competing for attention from AG too.

It reads like she wanted what Becky had, even in death, rather than wanting to see her mother. Of course it could all be BS but yes I suspect a bit of leakage there.

 

[Tortoise]

yes it's very evocative. Which means she genuinely wanted to see her Mum. Or it is "leakage", unintentional kernel of truth mixed in with this ploy to go go suddenly see Mum after 5 years....

What also struck me reading all the afternoon posts is with NM & SH spending 3 days a week, likely all day, at CL, imagine the tension as BW would often be there too or coming & going. The competing for attention from AG too.

I still don't believe her explanation for going to her Mums!

I think she was looking for somewhere to leave her children if she ended up in prison, or dump her daughter if she ended up going on the run with NM. It would have been a place of convenience for them to hide, if the police hadn't found out where they were and tracked them down on their first night.

 

[ColourPurple]

Another experience to share from my jury service if anyone is interested. hope I'm not boring you with too many posts.

It was THE hardest thing I think I have ever done in my life. You are not allowed to talk to other jurors about anything connected to the trial, unless you are all together in a group. There is no opportunity to do that, since when you are sent off for a break or to have lunch you are put together with all the other jurors from other trials going on. This was at the Old Bailey where there are something in excess of 18 trials going on in different courtrooms.

So you have this mighty weight on your shoulders, can't discuss it at home or with anyone. It goes round and round in your head - I must get this decision right - what if I am wrong? You even end up dreaming about it after 6 weeks or so. It is a horrendous responsibility (but valuable too).

And then, finally you are sent off to deliberate in a locked room. and for the first time you can all talk.

I really was amazed and relieved to discover that every single jury member felt this same sense of responsibility and pressure to get it right, but the most interesting part about it was that we all believed and disbelieved exactly the same things. I know there are cases where jurors can't reach a unanimous decision and that a majority decision is accepted or the case gets sent for retrial, but my experience was that we had all reached the same conclusions on our own before coming together, without having to discuss why. We did discuss why but it was just for completeness more than anything.

It really gave me a lot of faith in the jury system, you have a complete range of ages, ethnic backgrounds and social backgrounds.

I think we have to give the jury more credit than we are. The prosecutor may seem from where we are standing to be not asking the right questions, but the jury won't have missed anything.

Not boring at all. I've never had to do jury service so find it really interesting. Thank you!

 

[cottonweaver]

@ Tortoise

Sounds tough but ultimately good experience. And must have been a great moment when you all came together and found you had made similar but independent conclusions.
I agree faith should be put in the public at large to be astute and responsible.
But "we" need some breakthroughs here with SH for them to feel confident to make a safe conviction.

 

[ColourPurple]

I still don't believe her explanation for going to her Mums!

I think she was looking for somewhere to leave her children if she ended up in prison, or dump her daughter if she ended up going on the run with NM. It would have been a place of convenience for them to hide, if the police hadn't found out where they were and tracked them down on their first night.

I agree, I think her main motivation was they needed somewhere to go, so police couldnt search the house that night. But found it interesting to see the reason she came up with, rather than it being that she realised how her mother might be feeling about not having seen her or her daughter for years, it was all about what she wanted.

 

[Tortoise]

I agree, I think her main motivation was they needed somewhere to go, so police couldnt search the house that night. But found it interesting to see the reason she came up with, rather than it being that she realised how her mother might be feeling about not having seen her or her daughter for years, it was all about what she wanted.

entirely so IMO too.

 

[ColourPurple]

Re the recent discussion of where the balance of power was in the relationship. I think, although NM was controlling in some ways, where SH had the power was when it came to sex. Think about who holds the power... the one who is sexually frustrated and always wanting sex but never getting it... or the one who is witholding the sex?

 

[Gigi-G]

No, it was during his interviews when he confessed

ETA - he didn't want Shauna's name spoken during interview and then as Tortoise says below- during remand hearing etc

So why is it. When you think that 7 years they (SH & NM) have spent more time together than apart. NM seems to me the more 'needy' one in the relationship. I'm sure he's losing his mind not being able to talk to SH let alone hold her. Or direct her.
Why can't he bear to hear her name brought up in questioning or reviewing evidence?

 

[cottonweaver]

]I still don't believe her explanation[/B] for going to her Mums!

I think she was looking for somewhere to leave her children if she ended up in prison, or dump her daughter if she ended up going on the run with NM. It would have been a place of convenience for them to hide, if the police hadn't found out where they were and tracked them down on their first night.

Which does she want us to believe Tortoise? So far I got :
-She was worried about all the Becky missing and she has no family intimacy so goes to Mum's
-But says she didn't tell her mum BW missing- "Nathan's issue, Nathan's problems, not mine to tell"
-She wanted closeness with her mum like the BW family had now found, but didn't even initiate a conversation with mum about BW and even when mum brings up Becky subject she does not say, well yes, that's partly why I am here after 5 years!
-And she doesn't expect Nathan to agree to the visit yet seemingly had not explained why she must go to Mums to him either ( or he would have used it surely as reasoning?)
-"I realised if I had gone there would be no one to worry where I was and be concerned about me."
-But at that point "I thought she was still alive. I just thought she would be off with her friends somewhere"