GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #8

[YidArmyRach]

I'm not convinced either.

If the NM in that interview had disposed of Becky's body by dumping her in a field/wood/river, maybe so. But I'm so hung up on the dismemberment. It ain't gelling for me. Maybe NM is used to getting his way if he cowers and cries. I spent all night mulling over it last night. Is he the master manipulator or is it SH? I'm coming up with SH killed Becky. NM's plan was to kidnap her and teach her a lesson, in the act SH smothered her and threw a spanner into the works. NM took control and disposed of Becky by dismembering her, and since then it's been all about saving SH's butt. NM may even be scared of SH. Ugh idk but this is my thinking right now. Totally subject to change!!

Yes, that is exactly what I've been thinking! Its NM saying he strangled Becky when she was smothered that first made me think that. Plus the pure hatred coming from SH in interviews made me think that she could easily have been involved, along with the kidnapping texts between the two of them. Plus, I don't believe for one minute that she didn't think any of his activity was unusual.

With regards to their relationship, and people discussing how he was the older, more mature person in the relationship, especially since she was only 14 when they met - I've got experience of a similar relationship and here is my take on it.

I was 18 when I began a relationship with a man who was 32. We were together for a large number of years (far more than we should have been!) When we first got together, people would say that I must be really mature to have interested a man of that age. However, after we had split up, I realised that he was very immature in his ways and attitude when we met, rather than me being very mature. He would walk out on jobs leaving us with no money, justifying his reasons as saying he had been treated badly, or didn't like the rules. He was selfish in his ways, so would spend money going to visit relatives when we were struggling to pay our bills - he didn't act like an adult, wasn't responsible at all. He was also paranoid and convinced I was seeing other men (I wasn't!) and would actually hunt for proof that I was. Obviously, as the years went by, I was getting more mature and more grown up, and eventually I realised that I had outgrown and out-matured him). By the age of 40, he was still acting in the same way as he was when we met, whereas at 26 I was a lot more mature than I had been when we met.

What I am trying to say is, SH would have matured a lot between the age of 14 and when she was arrested, whereas NM was 21 when they met and had probably matured as much as he was going to. So, I think that she could well have been the dominant one in the relationship. Just because she was 14 when they got together, doesn't mean she continued to look up to him, or act younger. Also, there is the possibility of him grooming her at 14 OR she could have been very mature and self-confident at that age. I've met 14 year old girls who are very mature, self-confident and know exactly what they want at that age.

 

[ColourPurple]

I'm not convinced either.

If the NM in that interview had disposed of Becky's body by dumping her in a field/wood/river, maybe so. But I'm so hung up on the dismemberment. It ain't gelling for me. Maybe NM is used to getting his way if he cowers and cries. I spent all night mulling over it last night. Is he the master manipulator or is it SH? I'm coming up with SH killed Becky. NM's plan was to kidnap her and teach her a lesson, in the act SH smothered her and threw a spanner into the works. NM took control and disposed of Becky by dismembering her, and since then it's been all about saving SH's butt. NM may even be scared of SH. Ugh idk but this is my thinking right now. Totally subject to change!!

Two things I'm keeping in mind is that the NM we saw on video was also the NM who had apparently told Becky in graphic detail of how he would kill her and is also the same NM who spoke on their Butlins holiday about how he could pull a toenail off with a claw hammer. So he appears to be capable of talking graphically about commiting violent actions but does that mean he could also act them out? The only reports we have of NM being violent come from SH and we have no reports that SH had any history of violence. I suppose you could argue suffocation as a cause of death isn't violent but there were also marks from a screw driver on Becky's neck. The dismemberment afterwards seems more due to practicality in trying to dispose of a body.

I mentioned yesterday that the car being reversed onto the drive made me think it was a pre-meditated kidnap but then I realised we have no proof (other than NM and SH's word) that he did originally reverse onto the drive before entering the house. Maybe he parked where he normally did on the road , then whatever happened happened and he/they had to then reverse the car onto the drive to get Beckys' body out unseen.


They could then have discussed who would take the rap if they were caught and what the story could be, and at that point they could have decided they would use the excuse that he alone planned to kidnap her to teach her a lesson and it all went wrong.

ETA: There's also the evidence that at least one of them had watched a video of a girl being raped while somebody held a hand over their mouth but it doesn't say if it was MN's or SH's

Mr Mousley alleged that internet searches carried out in November and December 2014 showed Matthews and Hoare had a 'shared interest' in teenage girls.
Police also recovered a video showing the rape of a teenage girl in which the attacker put his hand over her mouth.

: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ars-teenager-cut-power-saw.html#ixzz3pOcM1zkY

 

[Alyce]

Isn't it strange that neither SH or NM had a key anyway, considering they were Anjie's carers. Wouldn't they need access in an emergency, like if she had fallen couldn't get up again (but had her mobile with her to call for help). I would have thought if Anjie was bad enough to need a carer, there might be times that getting out of bed, going downstairs and opening the door would be difficult if not impossible - so strange that her carer didn't have a key.

I remember querying that point a while back and someone suggested that perhaps SH was not really a main carer, as she made out and was possibly just giving herself that title so that she could claim a carer's allowance
I also remember , somewhere ! , it was said that AGs mother and father were the ones who always took her to the hospital appointments.

 

[MissyLDT]

Will KD and/or JI have to give evidence?

I'd like to know more about this supposed argument and whether SH really was telling NM to get out. It might give us a better idea of where her mind was at. I just get the impression that she seems smarter and more switched on than him.

 

[ColourPurple]

Will KD and/or JI have to give evidence?

I'd like to know more about this supposed argument and whether SH really was telling NM to get out. It might give us a better idea of where her mind was at. I just get the impression that she seems smarter and more switched on than him.

I'm hoping they do give evidence or if not, that the police have asked SH about her being there. in NM's confession he admits he took the packages to a shed with two men, who he doesn't want to name, but he doesn't mention where SH was at all. JI and KD did it whilst working a night shift so I can't see her being anywhere else other than at home. I guess she could use the deep sleeper excuse again but JI had no reason to lie about a woman being there.

 

[Alyce]

:getwell:

Yes, hope everything went ok with your op, Retribution. :getwell: We'd love to hear your take on proceedings so far!

And another get well from me - hope you're relaxing and recovering swiftly

 

[Alyce]

Oh man (not saying you're a man..), what on earth made you do that?! I seem to know lots of families emigrating down under at the moment and having been there I understand why, not so much the other way round lol! I hate winter, so excuse me if I'm a bit grumpy for the next 6 months!

You and me both - I dread tomorrow when the clocks go back and the day ends so early !

 

[Alyce]

It wasn't just family though, her best friend also said Becky couldn't buy things in shops or ask the bus driver for a ticket so she would do that for her. So yes I believe that although Becky was doing alot of the normal teenage things like having a boyfriend and having sleepovers with her best friend, she was also struggling with extreme shyness that meant she couldn't do little things we take for granted, small social interactions with strangers like paying at a checkout or buying a bus ticket. So yes if somebody had difficulty doing things like that and usually relied on the support of a friend to do them, it would be harder to believe they had ran away and were fending for themselves somewhere.

That was how I understood the initial statement from Becky's father.
That she would have left the house if a friend had called round for her, but would not have ventured out on her own, having to walk down the road alone etc.

 

[Bathsheba]

The way that SH communicated publicly on Facebook with NM does not make me think she was submissive or dominated and controlled by him at all. I've just been looking again. There's a photo of a penguin manicure she had which he laughs at and calls her sad and she swears in response "F... you it's festive xoxo'. There are many other examples. She is no meek submissive. I do not buy that she was completely unaware of what happened to Becky. Her texts/messages about kidnapping schoolgirls show me that she was capable of going along with a kidnap plot.

I'm really afraid that she will get away with it though.

 

[pappa rob]

Morning all, hope everyone is ok, it's Friiiiiiday yay!! Am I right in thinking there is no court session today?

fftopic: Also, I came across a poll thread on here last night and was surprised to see the overwhelming majority of Websleuths members are female (92% of 1000 polled), and aged over 40. Also, around 80% are American / Canadian which is kinda OBVIOUS! I'm guessing most of us following Becky's case are British, but does anyone want to admit to being *whispers* a man?

OK I'll admit I'm a man, and I'll also say I'm over 40 but I won't tell how much!

If SH really wanted "out" she blew it. In her first questioning all she had to do was tell LE that I know who did it and I'll tell you all I know. She didn't want out or she would of done it, or just go to right after it happened then her problem would of been solved. At this stage it's all a sham, she just trying to get away with murder.

 

[Alyce]

Will KD and/or JI have to give evidence?

I'd like to know more about this supposed argument and whether SH really was telling NM to get out. It might give us a better idea of where her mind was at. I just get the impression that she seems smarter and more switched on than him.

I presume JI can refuse to give evidence as he is a defendant and has entered a plea of not guilty to his charge.

I dont know about KD - because he has already pleaded guilty, does this mean he could be called if the Prosecution wish ?

 

[Clio]

I have a huge number of unanswered questions, most of which I don’t think will be addressed in the trial. I would like to hear a witness statement from AG though.

It has been reported that NM called AG on the morning of the 19th to see if Becky would be home to let him & SH in. Is that true? If so, what did she tell him?

Did she tell him that she had tried to text Becky at 10pm the night before but there had been no reply. Did she say to NM that this had made her worried and upset? If so, was that the final straw for him regarding Becky’s disrespect for his mum? Perhaps that may have tipped him over the edge and been the trigger for executing the “teach Becky a lesson” kidnap plan.

When MM brought AG back from the hospital, did SH return the cake tin to her?

When LO called round at 5pm on the 19th looking for Becky, it is reported that SH answered the door and called to AG to ask if Becky was in. Allegedly, they both went to Becky’s room to look. Is that true and if so why did it need them both to go and look? Did AG say she would look and SH offered to go with her or was it the other way round? What, if anything did SH say at that point?

Did NM leave SH at Crown Hill for about 4 hours with AG and if so, on which day? Was it Friday 20th as SH says or was it Saturday 21st as NM has suggested. What did SH say and do during that time? Did either of them mention the blocked toilet at CML?

 

[sar2them1984]

Yes, that is exactly what I've been thinking! Its NM saying he strangled Becky when she was smothered that first made me think that. Plus the pure hatred coming from SH in interviews made me think that she could easily have been involved, along with the kidnapping texts between the two of them. Plus, I don't believe for one minute that she didn't think any of his activity was unusual.

With regards to their relationship, and people discussing how he was the older, more mature person in the relationship, especially since she was only 14 when they met - I've got experience of a similar relationship and here is my take on it.

I was 18 when I began a relationship with a man who was 32. We were together for a large number of years (far more than we should have been!) When we first got together, people would say that I must be really mature to have interested a man of that age. However, after we had split up, I realised that he was very immature in his ways and attitude when we met, rather than me being very mature. He would walk out on jobs leaving us with no money, justifying his reasons as saying he had been treated badly, or didn't like the rules. He was selfish in his ways, so would spend money going to visit relatives when we were struggling to pay our bills - he didn't act like an adult, wasn't responsible at all. He was also paranoid and convinced I was seeing other men (I wasn't!) and would actually hunt for proof that I was. Obviously, as the years went by, I was getting more mature and more grown up, and eventually I realised that I had outgrown and out-matured him). By the age of 40, he was still acting in the same way as he was when we met, whereas at 26 I was a lot more mature than I had been when we met.

What I am trying to say is, SH would have matured a lot between the age of 14 and when she was arrested, whereas NM was 21 when they met and had probably matured as much as he was going to. So, I think that she could well have been the dominant one in the relationship. Just because she was 14 when they got together, doesn't mean she continued to look up to him, or act younger. Also, there is the possibility of him grooming her at 14 OR she could have been very mature and self-confident at that age. I've met 14 year old girls who are very mature, self-confident and know exactly what they want at that age.

Yid that is the point that I was trying to get across but you have done it so much more eloquently..

My ex was 10 years older than me with me just being 16 when we met. To all intents and purposes he outwardly seemed mature but behind closed doors he was anything but...like your example he would regularly quit jobs or decide they weren't good enough for him leaving us in the lurch. He was the same with the paranoia and money. To cut a long story short whilst he was the elder of our relationship I had to take on the role of the adult and provider - it was myself who worked to provide for us,to pay our rent and bills. If there was ever any problem about anything it was me who would have to tell him what to do but I would have to do it in such a way as he believed that he had come up with the problem so as not to hurt his feelings and set him off on the "woe is me" path which he would go down.

As I got older I realised that this wasn't the relationship I wanted or needed to be in but every time I tried to leave he would threaten to harm himself or guilt trip me into staying with him (for instance he would talk about how he had left Bristol when I went back home leaving all his friends and family). Playing the part of both the martyr and saviour "for rescuing me from my dump of a family".

When we did split he had very few relationship but the ones he did have (and his now wife) were all much younger than him and you could see the same pattern with him. He used to think he had "saved them/made their life better) and was the one in control of the relationship when actually it was the complete opposite and was his partner who was in control yet she made him feel that it was him - does that make sense?

Actually he is very similar to NM I'm his behaviours in a lot of ways

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

 

[leah]

Yid that is the point that I was trying to get across but you have done it so much more eloquently..

My ex was 10 years older than me with me just being 16 when we met. To all intents and purposes he outwardly seemed mature but behind closed doors he was anything but...like your example he would regularly quit jobs or decide they weren't good enough for him leaving us in the lurch. He was the same with the paranoia and money. To cut a long story short whilst he was the elder of our relationship I had to take on the role of the adult and provider - it was myself who worked to provide for us,to pay our rent and bills. If there was ever any problem about anything it was me who would have to tell him what to do but I would have to do it in such a way as he believed that he had come up with the problem so as not to hurt his feelings and set him off on the "woe is me" path which he would go down.

As I got older I realised that this wasn't the relationship I wanted or needed to be in but every time I tried to leave he would threaten to harm himself or guilt trip me into staying with him (for instance he would talk about how he had left Bristol when I went back home leaving all his friends and family). Playing the part of both the martyr and saviour "for rescuing me from my dump of a family".

When we did split he had very few relationship but the ones he did have (and his now wife) were all much younger than him and you could see the same pattern with him. He used to think he had "saved them/made their life better) and was the one in control of the relationship when actually it was the complete opposite and was his partner who was in control yet she made him feel that it was him - does that make sense?

Actually he is very similar to NM I'm his behaviours in a lot of ways

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

I read this several times, this was summed up so well, I don't know what to say. This is exactly what is happening with my daughter and her husband, exactly. There is an intense hold on her, and even though she knows it, can't/won't break loose, no matter how a person tries. Could this have been going on with NM and SH? The only difference is the two suspects have a child and were also expecting, so there may be more going on.

 

[YidArmyRach]

Yid that is the point that I was trying to get across but you have done it so much more eloquently..

My ex was 10 years older than me with me just being 16 when we met. To all intents and purposes he outwardly seemed mature but behind closed doors he was anything but...like your example he would regularly quit jobs or decide they weren't good enough for him leaving us in the lurch. He was the same with the paranoia and money. To cut a long story short whilst he was the elder of our relationship I had to take on the role of the adult and provider - it was myself who worked to provide for us,to pay our rent and bills. If there was ever any problem about anything it was me who would have to tell him what to do but I would have to do it in such a way as he believed that he had come up with the problem so as not to hurt his feelings and set him off on the "woe is me" path which he would go down.

As I got older I realised that this wasn't the relationship I wanted or needed to be in but every time I tried to leave he would threaten to harm himself or guilt trip me into staying with him (for instance he would talk about how he had left Bristol when I went back home leaving all his friends and family). Playing the part of both the martyr and saviour "for rescuing me from my dump of a family".

When we did split he had very few relationship but the ones he did have (and his now wife) were all much younger than him and you could see the same pattern with him. He used to think he had "saved them/made their life better) and was the one in control of the relationship when actually it was the complete opposite and was his partner who was in control yet she made him feel that it was him - does that make sense?

Actually he is very similar to NM I'm his behaviours in a lot of ways

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Makes lots of sense. In fact, I could be reading about my ex, when I read about your former relationship! Like you, I was the one who ended up financially supporting the relationship and children. By the age of 23, I was working 45 hours a week and he was either out of work, doing part time work or had become a 'house husband' (in reality an excuse to not work!).

Mine had 2 children when we met but was estranged from them. I initially fell for the sob story of his ex making it hard for him to see them and how horrible she was, as she had had an affair with his mate, causing him to lose everything.

For years I though she was horrible, selfish, really unfair etc and like SH was with Becky, I would repeat his comments about how he had been treated and how terrible it was that he had lost his children over her behaviour. However, it was only when we split up (after having had children) I realised that he had repeated the cycle .... telling people that I had had affairs and how he had lost his children due to me seeing his mate behind his back (I'd only ever met this man twice in 10 years, didn't like him and had no idea where he lived (it was 50 miles away, so not round the corner). So, obviously then I began to question if any of what he had said had been true - the ex may well have never done any of those things!

He met someone else (a single mother, again about 14 years younger than him) and had another child, but split up a few years later. To this day, he is still unemployed having been in and out of jobs. So the behaviour never changed and the immaturity level remains, even though he is in his 50's now.

My ex had a pretty rubbish upbringing with his parents splitting up and his father remarrying and taking on his new wife's son as his own, whilst pretty soon giving up on his own children (who were aged between 10 and 16 at the time). His mother had a lot of mental health issues and didn't really care for her children properly, leaving them to bring themselves up. He idolised her though, blaming his dad when really she was pretty selfish too, as she used to drink a lot and not even feed the children or get them up for school.

I'm rambling on now, but I can see that NM may have had mental health issues arising from his upbringing if he felt abandoned by his mum and replaced by Becky. NOT AT ALL using that as an excuse, but seeing similarities in his behaviour to that of my ex - in terms of immaturity. Mine didn't threaten to hurt himself when I said I was ending the relationship, he actually cut his wrists. He was ok, but stupidly I took him back for the sake of the children, and then had another 2 horrendous years until I finally did end the relationship - which led to a couple of years of severe stress with threats from him, and him trying to get more access via courts, even though he didn't financially support the child (and never has done).

 

[YidArmyRach]

I read this several times, this was summed up so well, I don't know what to say. This is exactly what is happening with my daughter and her husband, exactly. There is an intense hold on her, and even though she knows it, can't/won't break loose, no matter how a person tries. Could this have been going on with NM and SH? The only difference is the two suspects have a child and were also expecting, so there may be more going on.

I'm sorry to hear this about your daughter. Its always hard being on the outside when you can see how destructive a relationship is. There are so many reasons for people staying - even silly ones like not wanting to admit other people were right, or feeling that you'll never meet anyone else. All you can do is let her know you'll be there if she ever wants to leave him, and there will be no recriminations, just help and encouragement. Its such a waste of life, when you look back and realise how much happier life could have been. I hope she manages to find her freedom soon x

 

[Tortoise]

OK I'll admit I'm a man, and I'll also say I'm over 40 but I won't tell how much!

If SH really wanted "out" she blew it. In her first questioning all she had to do was tell LE that I know who did it and I'll tell you all I know. She didn't want out or she would of done it, or just go to right after it happened then her problem would of been solved. At this stage it's all a sham, she just trying to get away with murder.

can you remind me who LE is? I'm having a blank moment

 

[CoverMeCagney]

can you remind me who LE is? I'm having a blank moment

Law Enforcement. a.k.a the police / cops / filth / fuzz / bizzies.

:cop::copcar::cop:

 

[Dion]

I believe the killing of Becky was sexually motivated. They have both demonstrated interest in young petite girls and Becky fit the bill. They asked AG if Becky was home, and then made the excuse about returning a cake tin (if they usually spent time there a couple of days a week, why not take it back then?)

Two stun guns were ordered by SH, which indicates to me that both of them were planning on using them at the same time.

Before Becky was reported missing, they had several hours to get rid of her body. They chose not to get rid of it, but take it back to their house, thereby risking detection, because of course the police will be looking at who last saw her. Why did they choose to take Becky's body to their place? I hate to say it, but were they planning on taking pictures of her, or worse?

The initial plan probably involved kidnapping a live Becky and taking her back to their place, but after she was killed, they didn't change the plan.

All this nonsense about "teaching her a lesson" for leaving stuff on the floor, where AG could trip over it, is BS. If AG set foot in their house, she would have not been able to walk 2 feet without encountering a hazard.

 

[Alyce]

I have a huge number of unanswered questions, most of which I don’t think will be addressed in the trial. I would like to hear a witness statement from AG though.

It has been reported that NM called AG on the morning of the 19th to see if Becky would be home to let him & SH in. Is that true? If so, what did she tell him?

Did she tell him that she had tried to text Becky at 10pm the night before but there had been no reply. Did she say to NM that this had made her worried and upset? If so, was that the final straw for him regarding Becky’s disrespect for his mum? Perhaps that may have tipped him over the edge and been the trigger for executing the “teach Becky a lesson” kidnap plan.

When MM brought AG back from the hospital, did SH return the cake tin to her?

When LO called round at 5pm on the 19th looking for Becky, it is reported that SH answered the door and called to AG to ask if Becky was in. Allegedly, they both went to Becky’s room to look. Is that true and if so why did it need them both to go and look? Did AG say she would look and SH offered to go with her or was it the other way round? What, if anything did SH say at that point?

Did NM leave SH at Crown Hill for about 4 hours with AG and if so, on which day? Was it Friday 20th as SH says or was it Saturday 21st as NM has suggested. What did SH say and do during that time? Did either of them mention the blocked toilet at CML?

I would also like answers to these questions ....... I do wonder if there will be a statement from AG introduced into the evidence as she can surely confirm or refute so much that has been stated so far.