GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #8

[kodi]

I'm still catching up but it's occurred to me a couple of different times, and it may have been mentioned already and I just don't recall it; does anyone think perhaps SH actually killed BW herself and that's why NM's explanation of strangulation doesn't match up with the coroners COD being suffocation? Maybe his story doesn't match because he wasn't in the room when it happened or he wasn't the one that actually caused her death. Just a thought...

 

[e-sherlockholmes]

Morning all, hope everyone is ok, it's Friiiiiiday yay!! Am I right in thinking there is no court session today? fftopic: Also, I came across a poll thread on here last night and was surprised to see the overwhelming majority of Websleuths members are female (92% of 1000 polled), and aged over 40. Also, around 80% are American / Canadian which is kinda OBVIOUS! I'm guessing most of us following Becky's case are British, but does anyone want to admit to being *whispers* a man?

Many females work as intelligence analysts. Some of the most important intelligence breakthroughs were done by females. E.g. uncovering double agents in counter-intel work, uncovering leaders of terrorist groups hiding in seclusion inside a compound in pakistan, etc. Although, I don't think gender has anything to do with the phenomenon. I think its the nature of our progressive society. Women take on white collar desk jobs, and then the rest is up to the normal analytical and inquisitive human mind.

 

[Gigi-G]

I agree there are so many unanswered or blanks in the information that has been unveiled in court as yet. And the difficulty in placing dates and times in a set order as we are having issues with that ourselves let alone the Jury members.
Hopefully chronological detailing will make more sense once the Prosecution and Defence have done their summing up.
But that said. Is a long way away. So much more will be thrown out there for us to chew the cud over. And explore the possibilities and psyche of NM & SH.
All I want to do now is sit in a corner and rock back n fro. As my brain is finding difficulty in making best a chronological order for myself to go by?
Anyone? Lol

 

[e-sherlockholmes]

This wasn't covered in the past, and it is probably off putting but something that needs to be analyzed nonetheless.

I'm wondering what people's opinions are, as to whether the two suspects had done anything sexual to the body post-mortem. We do know that there were stab wounds post-mortem - this indicates some form of expressing rage at the diseased. But do you think any of the suspects 'went there' in terms of any sexualized elements?

 

[ColourPurple]

I believe the killing of Becky was sexually motivated. They have both demonstrated interest in young petite girls and Becky fit the bill. They asked AG if Becky was home, and then made the excuse about returning a cake tin (if they usually spent time there a couple of days a week, why not take it back then?)

Two stun guns were ordered by SH, which indicates to me that both of them were planning on using them at the same time.

Before Becky was reported missing, they had several hours to get rid of her body. They chose not to get rid of it, but take it back to their house, thereby risking detection, because of course the police will be looking at who last saw her. Why did they choose to take Becky's body to their place? I hate to say it, but were they planning on taking pictures of her, or worse?

The initial plan probably involved kidnapping a live Becky and taking her back to their place, but after she was killed, they didn't change the plan.

All this nonsense about "teaching her a lesson" for leaving stuff on the floor, where AG could trip over it, is BS. If AG set foot in their house, she would have not been able to walk 2 feet without encountering a hazard.

BMB That is why SH texting NM to tell him about the memory cards arrving could be important and maybe even why the camera part of Becky's tablet had been removed?

 

[ColourPurple]

I'm still catching up but it's occurred to me a couple of different times, and it may have been mentioned already and I just don't recall it; does anyone think perhaps SH actually killed BW herself and that's why NM's explanation of strangulation doesn't match up with the coroners COD being suffocation? Maybe his story doesn't match because he wasn't in the room when it happened or he wasn't the one that actually caused her death. Just a thought...

Yes, could also be why he wanted to give a written confession and not go into detail or be questioned about what happened. And that line I mentioned earlier, in the interview video where he appears to put emphasis on the word "should", when they want more detail and he says something like "yes I "should" be able to go into more detail", as if he could be thinking "yeah if I did it then I should be able to give more detail" but then doesn't and pauses like he's thinking what to say.

With SH appearing to be the one who takes the lead where their sexual fantasies are concerned, texting NM about attractive girls she's seen, inviting her friend to join them in a threesome, messaging another girl they liked the look of on Facebook... I can't rule out her bing the one who took the lead on this occasion too!

 

[ColourPurple]

This wasn't covered in the past, and it is probably off putting but something that needs to be analyzed nonetheless.

I'm wondering what people's opinions are, as to whether the two suspects had done anything sexual to the body post-mortem. We do know that there were stab wounds post-mortem - this indicates some form of expressing rage at the diseased. But do you think any of the suspects 'went there' in terms of any sexualized elements?

They are both attracted to teenage girls so it's possible, though the plan might have been to keep her alive and the fact that she died might have stopped anything happening of that nature. I hope that's the case as what we know so far is bad enough for her family to have to live with.

 

[YidArmyRach]

This wasn't covered in the past, and it is probably off putting but something that needs to be analyzed nonetheless.

I'm wondering what people's opinions are, as to whether the two suspects had done anything sexual to the body post-mortem. We do know that there were stab wounds post-mortem - this indicates some form of expressing rage at the diseased. But do you think any of the suspects 'went there' in terms of any sexualized elements?

I did consider that when the evidence showed her tampon had been removed. Its not something that would have been discovered by accident, they would have had to have been actively involved with (for want of a better word) that area.

I can't think of why a person would need to do that when dismembering a body. I know people said it might have been to aid (I'm wording this as nicely as I can) the removal of liquids from her body, but SH would know that the amount of blood lost via that route would be minimal.

 

[Tortoise]

Yes, could also be why he wanted to give a written confession and not go into detail or be questioned about what happened. And that line I mentioned earlier, in the interview video where he appears to put emphasis on the word "should", when they want more detail and he says something like "yes I "should" be able to go into more detail", as if he could be thinking "yeah if I did it I should be able to giv emore detail" but then doesn't and pauses like he's thinking what to say.

With SH appearing to be the one who takes the lead where their sexual fantasies are concerned, texting NM about attractive girls she's seen, inviting her friend to join them in a threesome, messaging another girl they liked the look of on Facebook... I can't rule out her bing the one who took the lead on this occasion too!

I agree. It stands out for me there is this peculiar vagueness when explaining how Becky came to die. It could be that he doesn't want to incriminate himself for her murder but he doesn't help his case by not explaining either. On the facts he's given I think the jury would likely convict for murder anyway. He doesn't give sufficient reason for her death coming about accidentally or unintentionally, and he doesn't even give an explanation for her actual cause of death.

 

[e-sherlockholmes]

They are both attracted to teenage girls so it's possible, though the plan might have been to keep her alive and the fact that she died might have stopped anything happening of that nature. I hope that's the case as what we know so far is bad enough for her family to have to live with.

Yeah. After the victim died from the suffocation they had inflicted, the victim only had some small cuts and bangs to the body. She wasn't heavily bloodied up, so her body is presumably very much intact as the normal self. So, if these two suspects were really sick and deranged enough, they could have done something sexual. Obviously they dismembered the victim, so we know they are deranged enough in the mind to possibly go there.

I'm on the fence about whether the male suspect would have done it, if that were the case. I think it might have been possible, but judging from the interview, he seems to have some form of PTSD about the whole experience. So I don't know whether he would have done it, though I suppose it could have been possible if he was 'in the moment'.

We don't know if the female suspect is guilty. But if she really was guilty all along, and judging by the way she acts so calmly and nonchalantly right now, she will come off as a cold calculating psychopath. If that were the case, add onto the fact she had a sexual fantasy, I think it could have been possible she would have done something sexual.

All speculation anyway, since there are no forensic details suggesting anything had been done, although you could never prove or disprove whether the suspects simply felt up the victim. But, I think a person capable of dismembering someone of whom they had a sexual fantasy of, and for which the crime had a sexual motive, is probably capable of some degree of necrophilia or other sexual indecencies to the body, especially as you say, the theory is they were just going to kidnap the victim to do stuff to at a different location. Except, now the victim is lifeless. But that is not to say they will "pass up the chance" anyway, if they were really deranged.

 

[Tortoise]

I did consider that when the evidence showed her tampon had been removed. Its not something that would have been discovered by accident, they would have had to have been actively involved with (for want of a better word) that area.

I can't think of why a person would need to do that when dismembering a body. I know people said it might have been to aid (I'm wording this as nicely as I can) the removal of liquids from her body, but SH would know that the amount of blood lost via that route would be minimal.

To my mind it is one of two things - it is either indicative of an assault on her body or as someone else suggested, it may have been expelled naturally with body gases.

 

[Tortoise]

Yeah. After the victim died from the suffocation they had inflicted, the victim only had some small cuts and bangs to the body. She wasn't heavily bloodied up, so her body is presumably very much intact as the normal self. So, if these two suspects were really sick and deranged enough, they could have done something sexual. Obviously they dismembered the victim, so we know they are deranged enough in the mind to possibly go there.

I'm on the fence about whether the male suspect would have done it, if that were the case. I think it might have been possible, but judging from the interview, he seems to have some form of PTSD about the whole experience. So I don't know whether he would have done it, though I suppose it could have been possible if he was 'in the moment'.

We don't know if the female suspect is guilty. But if she really was guilty all along, and judging by the way she acts so calmly and nonchalantly right now, she will come off as a cold calculating psychopath. If that were the case, add onto the fact she had a sexual fantasy, I think it could have been possible she would have done something sexual.

All speculation anyway, since there are no forensic details suggesting anything had been done, although you could never prove or disprove whether the suspects simply felt up the victim. But, I think a person capable of dismembering someone of whom they had a sexual fantasy of, and for which the crime had a sexual motive, is probably capable of some degree of necrophilia or other sexual indecencies to the body, especially as you say, the theory is they were just going to kidnap the victim to do stuff to at a different location. Except, now the victim is lifeless. But that is not to say they will "pass up the chance" anyway, if they were really deranged.

I don't think the full details of the threesome they engaged in were reported on were they? I wonder if it is known to the court whether SH interacted in a sexual sense with the other female? I know it was reported that SH got annoyed when the female kissed NM, if so, does that mean that there was no sexual contact between NM and the 3rd person?

 

[e-sherlockholmes]

I did consider that when the evidence showed her tampon had been removed. Its not something that would have been discovered by accident, they would have had to have been actively involved with (for want of a better word) that area.

I can't think of why a person would need to do that when dismembering a body. I know people said it might have been to aid (I'm wording this as nicely as I can) the removal of liquids from her body, but SH would know that the amount of blood lost via that route would be minimal.

Thats a good point about the tampon evidence. The tampon was found with the suitcase evidence right? But the victim was only 'cut' along the legs? So the torso is otherwise intact? So yeah, that probably suggests they 'went there' then.

As is common is many of these cases involving dismemberment and a sexual motive, there is often necrophilia also. But such things its hard to forensically prove. Often investigators don't find out, not until it is revealed by testimony of the suspects. Its basically the mindset of the perpetrator. A person who's lost their grip on humanity to dismember someone would have dehumanized the victim already to a point where, coupled with a sexual motive, these individuals are often capable of 'going there'.

 

[Tortoise]

BMB That is why SH texting NM to tell him about the memory cards arrving could be important and maybe even why the camera part of Becky's tablet had been removed?

yes, I don't have much knowledge of memory cards but does it mean that material can be stored which is not actually saved on the device?

 

[e-sherlockholmes]

I don't think the full details of the threesome they engaged in were reported on were they? I wonder if it is known to the court whether SH interacted in a sexual sense with the other female? I know it was reported that SH got annoyed when the female kissed NM, if so, does that mean that there was no sexual contact between NM and the 3rd person?

I think the witness involved in the threesome testified that everybody was in on it, willingly. I think this suggests the female suspect took part. But I am not sure if they went into specific details whether that meant the female suspect engaged in sexual activity with the other female in the threesome. Someone who knows the testimony better can add to it.

However, we do know that the female suspect had previously sought out and engaged the male suspect in communication involving also possible actions that lead to sexual activity with other females (the part about bringing to the attic). So, presumably that might mean she has swung both ways so to speak. Although, the communication could just be placating the male suspect's fantasy. But I doubt she wasn't motivated in that area herself, since she had a history of partaking in threesomes. More importantly, I think whoever it was that took part in the act of dismembering the victim, is suspect to have also done something sexual as well.

 

[kodi]

Yes, could also be why he wanted to give a written confession and not go into detail or be questioned about what happened. And that line I mentioned earlier, in the interview video where he appears to put emphasis on the word "should", when they want more detail and he says something like "yes I "should" be able to go into more detail", as if he could be thinking "yeah if I did it then I should be able to give more detail" but then doesn't and pauses like he's thinking what to say.

With SH appearing to be the one who takes the lead where their sexual fantasies are concerned, texting NM about attractive girls she's seen, inviting her friend to join them in a threesome, messaging another girl they liked the look of on Facebook... I can't rule out her bing the one who took the lead on this occasion too!

Now that I've caught up I can see others have been entertaining the idea, as well. I am all over the board about the dismemberment in the bathroom; I have a couple of different scenarios that are possible in my mind. As far as the dynamics of the relationship between NM and SH, I feel like I'm narrowing in on my thoughts there.

 

[Crazy Mama]

Has anyone mentioned the tampon? Who removed it? Surely the string would be full of DNA.

 

[jessie]

Now that I've caught up I can see others have been entertaining the idea, as well. I am all over the board about the dismemberment in the bathroom; I have a couple of different scenarios that are possible in my mind. As far as the dynamics of the relationship between NM and SH, I feel like I'm narrowing in on my thoughts there.

Hi kodi. I have been taking time out here, just reading and considering everyone else's thoughts. I'd be very interested in reading the scenarios you have considered, and also on the dynamics of their relationship.

With the evidence that has been given so far I feel that nothing is clear cut.
The jury certainly have a difficult job ahead imo.

 

[Tortoise]

The day Becky was killed -

I have been mulling over another detail of that day. SH said that Anjie started to worry (about 3pm?) about Becky not answering her phone to her or her friends, and called Darren. He said he would call the police and come home early. I think she said he arrived home about 4:30pm. In between that phone call and Darren arriving home SH made a search about how soon you can report a minor missing.

Darren phoned the police when he got home, regardless of the information SH had gleaned from her internet search.

My observations are that while it could be a totally innocent and normal thing to search up, it could also mean that she was hoping to delay them from reporting Becky missing. I can imagine a certain amount of panic ensuing at that point for the killer(s) with Becky's body being right outside the house in the boot of the car. ~Maybe the police could put a trace on Becky's phone and find out it had never left the location?

Anyway, in SH first interview (pre-arrest) I pick up on a nervousness when she recounts that she made this search, a quick glance at the eyes of the police officer to see how this is being perceived by him and a shifting in her seat.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I thought it was the Friday that she was reported missing? And if it was, why did they wait 24 hours?