GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #8

[Insp.Dots]

Have we seen 'the mask' used to scare Becky yet or the bag/suitcase he supposedly put her in at Crown Hill?
None of the ones I've seen are big enough to have put Becky into.
Never know a trial so far that has left SO many questions unanswered.
One thing I often try to remember while assessing is that 'The Truth' usually stands out, it doesn't have to be 'big' in statements and is often mundane but it is often clear when you look through everything. To constantly lie the person(s) have to be quite clever, it IS easy to remember and recall the truth, much more difficult to lie!

 

[ColourPurple]

Was just mulling over this visit and NM's saying 'if anyone comes'. He made a point of saying that to SH's Family, he also refused to name the men who helped him move body. Yet, we are meant to believe he not once made any warning to SH of things to say or not say....this leaves me again thinking, he didn't need to as she knew.
Also, out of the blue they go to SH's Mum's, NM said this was SH's idea? May well have been but can't help thinking they BOTH knew Police needed to talk to them and they both made excuses, they could not risk Police wanting to enter Cotton Mill til they'd got rid of evidence. Surely, even IF SH was innocent, NM would have told her some story to explain the 'odd' things going on?
I think this could be where they could trip themselves up along with JI seeing a woman shouting at NM, truly hope they get at least one of them on the stand as despite the lack of firm evidence against SH they have a huge number of questions to answer and I don't think she'd get through Cross without messing up or breaking. ALL MOO, I am eating and sleeping this case now and am so worried that Justice is not going to be fully done for Becky,:tantrum:

Yes that whole going out for a meal excuse is interesting. I was trying to find the time between SH first calling her stepfather to her arriving there at his house. From this article it looks like it was only 30- 40 minutes??? If that is really the case can we honestly believe that it was in those 30 -40 minutes that police rang to ask if they could search their house? I hope police check call times to see if the call from SH to KS came after the polices call. Because if the 30-40 minutes is accurate then their visit to KS was very hastily arranged.

[FONT=open_sans]Mr Stone told the court: "We had a phone call and she wanted to come and see us. I thought she wanted to get back in touch with her mum.[/FONT]
[FONT=open_sans]"I was shocked. She told me not to tell her mum she was coming - she wanted to make it a surprise.
[/FONT]
[FONT=open_sans]"I thought Nathan Matthews would come round with her. I had to give her the address. She said she would come around in 30-to-40 minutes.
[/FONT]
[FONT=open_sans]"Lisa wanted to know who was on the phone so I told her. Shauna and Nathan arrived. We just chatted, that sort of stuff."[/FONT]
[FONT=open_sans]

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Becky-Watts/story-27952698-detail/story.html#ixzz3pVHnidcF

[/FONT]

 

[ColourPurple]

Have we seen 'the mask' used to scare Becky yet or the bag/suitcase he supposedly put her in at Crown Hill?
None of the ones I've seen are big enough to have put Becky into.
Never know a trial so far that has left SO many questions unanswered.
One thing I often try to remember while assessing is that 'The Truth' usually stands out, it doesn't have to be 'big' in statements and is often mundane but it is often clear when you look through everything. To constantly lie the person(s) have to be quite clever, it IS easy to remember and recall the truth, much more difficult to lie!

No we haven't seen the mask and I mentioned previously that suddenly describing past events in the present tense in a statement can be a sign of deception and can encourage police to look again at that part of the statement. In Nathan's written confession one of the points where this happens is when he mentions the mask.

When she was in the garden I went to the boot of my car and took out a bag which contained the other items. I took everything upstairs to the landing, I think I then took the items out oft he bag before knocking on Rebecca's door.
She replied "What?" or "Hello" and I said, "Can I see you a minute?" or similar words.
Rebecca then opened the door, I am wearing the mask. I cannot be sure in which order things happened immediately after she came to the door but I used the items I had to subdue Rebecca.

http://www.itv.com/news/west/2015-10-21/becky-watts-trial-matthews-confession-in-full/

And the theory behind change in tense being just one of many signs of possible deception comes from

Truthful people usually describe historical events in the past tense. Deceptive people sometimes refer to past events as if the events were occurring in the present. Describing past events using the present tense suggests that people are rehearsing the events in their mind. Investigators should pay particular attention to points in a narrative at which the speaker shifts to inappropriate present tense usage

http://www.fraud-magazine.com/article.aspx?id=4294971184

 

[Alyce]

Snipped this from the Bristol Post article

It does look as though the police came calling at CML before SH phoned her mother - although the fact that they had the curtains drawn, sounds as though they had already gone out because they knew the police would be visiting that day




Police came knocking at the door in Cotton Mill Lane on Monday, February 23, but the curtains were drawn and no one answered when they knocked.

The prosecutor told the jury that in the early evening, Shauna made a call to her estrange mum, Lisa Donovan, who she had not spoken to for years. Ms Donovan and Shauna’s step-father, Kevin Stone, lived at Wilton Close in Southmead.

“This call was out of the blue. She said she wanted to come round. It is a fair assumption that Becky’s body had been dismembered and was at Cotton Mill Lane which may provide an explanation for this calls,” the prosecutor said.

“It would make it impossible (for the police) to have access to Cotton Mill Lane.”

At 6pm that night police got hold of Nathan Matthews on the phone and he said they would be going out for dinner with Shauna’s parents.

“They knew police would most likely be coming to Cotton Mill Lane the next morning and steps had to be taken to have Becky Watts’ body parts removed.


http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Becky-Watts/story-27937416-detail/story.html

 

[Clio]

"If anyone comes for me..." . KS is right that isn't a normal conversation. We know he's talking about the police but KS must've been thinking "Why would somebody they were meant to go out to dinner with come round my house looking for them?" No wonder they never told them Becky was missing.

I wonder did they arrange the visit before or after police had asked to visit. They came up with the meal as a reason when police asked to visit but I wonder had the visit to SH's parents actually been arranged at that point.

Bit confused what you are saying here. NM/SH knew police wanted to speak to them. Police called at CML on 23rd but no one answered the door. At 4:40pm NM/SH arranged the visit to Southmead. At 6pm police called at CML again but nobody was there. Police then phoned NM/SH to try and get them to come to CML. NM/SH said they couldn't return to CML as they were on their way to Southmead to visit LD/KS and were going out to eat later that night. Police were insistent they needed to speak so it was agreed that police would go to Southmead to meet them but NM said they couldn't talk for long (because they were going out to eat I presume). During the conversation at Southmead, SH agreed the police could come to CML to search the following morning.

Also just found more info about why (they said) they were picked up that night instead of using their own car

• The first visit

http://www.itv.com/news/west/story/2015-10-09/becky-watts-trial-day-3/

Now was the car playing up or did he/they not want the car to be there when police searched the house?

Good point. I had thought that he/they left the car at Southmead because they didn't want it to be outside CML, signifying that they were home. Your reason is probably more likely.

 

[Alyce]

Have we seen 'the mask' used to scare Becky yet or the bag/suitcase he supposedly put her in at Crown Hill?
None of the ones I've seen are big enough to have put Becky into.
Never know a trial so far that has left SO many questions unanswered.
One thing I often try to remember while assessing is that 'The Truth' usually stands out, it doesn't have to be 'big' in statements and is often mundane but it is often clear when you look through everything. To constantly lie the person(s) have to be quite clever, it IS easy to remember and recall the truth, much more difficult to lie!

BIB - No I dont believe we have, which I find interesting, because every other item used or involved in the killing was conveniently ( for the police ) placed in the shed.
I find the omission of these two items very strange, and leads me to believe they dont exist.

 

[Clio]

<rsbm>
It does look as though the police came calling at CML before SH phoned her mother - although the fact that they had the curtains drawn, sounds as though they had already gone out because they knew the police would be visiting that day

Or they were in and didn't answer the door because they knew it was the police knocking

 

[jessie]

Have we seen 'the mask' used to scare Becky yet or the bag/suitcase he supposedly put her in at Crown Hill?
None of the ones I've seen are big enough to have put Becky into.
Never know a trial so far that has left SO many questions unanswered.
One thing I often try to remember while assessing is that 'The Truth' usually stands out, it doesn't have to be 'big' in statements and is often mundane but it is often clear when you look through everything. To constantly lie the person(s) have to be quite clever, it IS easy to remember and recall the truth, much more difficult to lie!

He had time to dispose of the bag and mask though, in some bin away from home. Like when he went to B&Q or somewhere.

I wonder (only my thoughts) if he disposed of them because he thought there would be clear dna from himself on them. In the dismemberment
he used gloves I believe.

I have trouble understanding the behaviour of both of them, really I haven't a clue but he might have thought that way?

 

[Tortoise]

Snipped this from the Bristol Post article

It does look as though the police came calling at CML before SH phoned her mother - although the fact that they had the curtains drawn, sounds as though they had already gone out because they knew the police would be visiting that day




Police came knocking at the door in Cotton Mill Lane on Monday, February 23, but the curtains were drawn and no one answered when they knocked.

The prosecutor told the jury that in the early evening, Shauna made a call to her estrange mum, Lisa Donovan, who she had not spoken to for years. Ms Donovan and Shauna&#8217;s step-father, Kevin Stone, lived at Wilton Close in Southmead.

&#8220;This call was out of the blue. She said she wanted to come round. It is a fair assumption that Becky&#8217;s body had been dismembered and was at Cotton Mill Lane which may provide an explanation for this calls,&#8221; the prosecutor said.

&#8220;It would make it impossible (for the police) to have access to Cotton Mill Lane.&#8221;

At 6pm that night police got hold of Nathan Matthews on the phone and he said they would be going out for dinner with Shauna&#8217;s parents.

&#8220;They knew police would most likely be coming to Cotton Mill Lane the next morning and steps had to be taken to have Becky Watts&#8217; body parts removed.


http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Becky-Watts/story-27937416-detail/story.html

Another point to mention is that the police did call round to see SH and NM at Wilton Close that evening. They spoke to SH at least (not sure about NM) outside the front door. If its not their home, I doubt that either of them would answer a knock at the door, so it was more likely to be one of the parents. I wonder if they have been asked about that in court, and if they thought it strange that the police wanted to talk to them, the first time they had seen them, according to KS for 4 years?

 

[Cherwell]

Well I wouldnt disagree with you re the reporter - the amount of incorrect info they are capable of providing sometimes !

Re Sniffer - yes, in theory, any dog that is detecting something by smell is sniffing , but in situations where Cadavers have been used, it has often been specified in the reporting.

I just meant that the reporter wasn't able to find that out, so used the less specific term. Perhaps there was no opportunity to ask, or the police wouldn't say.

From memory ( and I stand to be corrected ) doesnt the corpse have to have been in the room for a minimum of 2 hours for a scent to be detected by the Cadaver dogs ? If yes, then I doubt poor Becky was there long enough

We don't know, though. They might not have moved her straightaway.
You would think they would want to hide the body asap, but then you would think they could have found a simpler way of disposing of it than they did.

 

[Clio]

BIB - No I dont believe we have, which I find interesting, because every other item used or involved in the killing was conveniently ( for the police ) placed in the shed.
I find the omission of these two items very strange, and leads me to believe they dont exist.

BIB Apart from the stun guns and the car boot liner hidden in the back of the cooker void in the bathroom. I don't understand why he/they left these items in CML. I guess they were forgotten about during the late night clear out on 23rd. The police missed finding these items during the search on the morning of the 24th. Maybe he/they thought they were in the clear and didn't bother getting rid of them or had no further opportunity to do so.

 

[Tortoise]

BIB - No I dont believe we have, which I find interesting, because every other item used or involved in the killing was conveniently ( for the police ) placed in the shed.
I find the omission of these two items very strange, and leads me to believe they dont exist.

now I don't know how to go about finding it because I don't know which day it was, but there was a tweet from court which said the police found the mask used as a disguise in the CML bathroom.

 

[Clio]

now I don't know how to go about finding it because I don't know which day it was, but there was a tweet from court which said the police found the mask used as a disguise in the CML bathroom.

It was reported on UK & Eire site on 15th October, morning session

Walk through video finished. Forensic investigators now detailing items found at Cotton Mill Lane including Asda receipts, cleaning products and a mask that was allegedly used in the 'kidnap'

 

[Gigi-G]

Thanks for reposting that bit Clio.

Her answers are difficult to believe imo. SH saying NM stayed in the car chatting until she fell asleep seems odd in itself, but what about their child?
Are we being asked to believe that the child fell asleep instantly also, and wasn't in the least disturbed by the noise of 3 blokes in and out of the house while loading the car? Apparently coming in for a cigarette after as well.
If the child was disturbed and woke, then SH would have been woken too I would have thought.
I do find her story telling doesn't ring true so much (or all) of the time, and keeps bringing doubt in my mind.
I understand that just because I think she is probably guilty that is nowhere enough to find her guilty though.[/QUOTE]

Just a quickie... going thru the pics of CML. It's evident that most if not all the rooms were cluttered. I'm led to believe that I read from one of the Officers who were searching the property initially. State that "the bedroom was a mess with sauce bottles and fast food containers littering it" that the bedroom seemed the main living room. Or where they were the most. Where on earth was the child's bed/cot?
Also after I had my children. I have never slept soundly since. You're always semi aware of any noise. .. so SH claiming to have fallen asleep so soundly. After leaving NM chatting to mates in the car. Hmmm ?
Also if the child didn't have their own bed n slept with SH n NM. It would mean if the child was alerted to any noise then SH must of been disturbed by the lil one? Jmoo

 

[Clio]

<rsmb>
We don't know, though. They might not have moved her straightaway.
You would think they would want to hide the body asap, but then you would think they could have found a simpler way of disposing of it than they did.

Becky sent her last text at 11:03am and AG returned from hospital at 12:45pm so he/they surely must have moved her by then at the latest. I don't know much about cadaver dogs so I have no idea if they would detect anything from that kind of time period.

 

[Alyce]

I just meant that the reporter wasn't able to find that out, so used the less specific term. Perhaps there was no opportunity to ask, or the police wouldn't say.



We don't know, though. They might not have moved her straightaway.
You would think they would want to hide the body asap, but then you would think they could have found a simpler way of disposing of it than they did.

Yes, I see what you mean re the reporter. Probably just writing the article from what he/she could see of the dogs at CML, with no further info.

Re the body .......AG was only out of the house from 11.15am to 12.45 pm and I would have thought NM ( and possibly SH ) would need to move her body asap, because of AG being expected home.
Even if she was left in her bedroom for a little while, it would be nowhere near the 2 hour minimum.

 

[Gigi-G]

I guess it depends how his autism affects him. It might be it gives him a better attention to detail or a tendency to be truthful, though we've also heard he exaggerates.

My youngest had ADHD and various traits on the Autistic spectrum.
His personality is vast... from extreme elation. To suicidal tendancies.... from knowing the truth will or can be truthful when it suits him.... to a constant habitual liar. To exaggerate details to make him look good. Fast cars fast women wads of cash kinda lies. When he has a job that keeps him ticking over. When pressed for the truth you will get the truth. Because he's been brought up that the Police are not to be messed with... its a daunting and challenging task raising a child like this. He's 21 now. And I don't envisage him leaving home anytime soon.
But after all that. He can be soo loving. And loyal. To those who love him unconditionally. ..

So I don't know if JL will take the stand.

 

[Jinkasaurus]

Does anyone know if there are any maps showing the various locations in this case? If so, would you post a link?? TIA!

 

[jessie]

Becky sent her last text at 11:03am and AG returned from hospital at 12:45pm so he/they surely must have moved her by then at the latest. I don't know much about cadaver dogs so I have no idea if they would detect anything from that kind of time period.

I understand that it is not an exact science, but cadaver dogs have been able to detect the smell of a corpse after 10 minutes. The body does emit gases undetectable to the human sense of smell within a short time of death.
10 minutes is exceptional, but I'm sure I read previously that from 20 minutes on a cadaver dog can mark scent.

 

[YidArmyRach]

My youngest had ADHD and various traits on the Autistic spectrum.
His personality is vast... from extreme elation. To suicidal tendancies.... from knowing the truth will or can be truthful when it suits him.... to a constant habitual liar. To exaggerate details to make him look good. Fast cars fast women wads of cash kinda lies. When he has a job that keeps him ticking over. When pressed for the truth you will get the truth. Because he's been brought up that the Police are not to be messed with... its a daunting and challenging task raising a child like this. He's 21 now. And I don't envisage him leaving home anytime soon.
But after all that. He can be soo loving. And loyal. To those who love him unconditionally. ..

So I don't know if JL will take the stand.

Sounds similar to my son in a lot of ways. I'd add also that he finds it hard to make friends and to maintain friendships. His behaviour is odd in that he doesn't get jokes and takes everything literally (she hit the roof = someone has physically hit the roof / throw in the towel = somebody has thrown a towel into something ect), he will tell the teacher if anyone is doing something they shouldn't because he thinks its a bad thing to break rules (not understanding that children won't like him because of it), and gets obsessed about the strangest things, so doesn't have much in common with others his age. He is also very immature compared to other children of his age, and comes across as about 7 years old even though he is nearly 11. His understanding of what he is being told can often be different to what the person telling him, actually means.

Because of all of this, he will often be isolated and desperate for friends - meaning he would probably try to please people or do what they want if he thinks he'll be part of their 'gang'. He wouldn't do anything he knew was wrong, but if he thought he was helping, he'd do it.

He also doesn't understand when children are being mean to him, and will continue to think they are his friends, even when they have isolated him.

I think JI could be another victim in all of this - depending on how is ASD and ADHD affects him.