GUILTY Uk - Sophie Lionnet, 21, Body Found Burned, Wandsworth, London, 20 Sep 2017 *arrests*

  • #361
I was just about to make a post saying I've got a pan big enough to dunk a head in, but then I thought I'd better check first. You wouldn't believe the things I've tested since I've been at WS - I'm just glad there's no one home right now to see me trying to get my head in the saucepan! (I didn't fill it with water :D)

My largest pan is 25cm diameter and 15cm deep, and I can't imagine most families having a bigger pan than that. I've also got a giant jam pan that I've used for apple bobbing before but SK doesn't exactly strike me as a jam maker. I could fit my face in the saucepan just about, and only if it was very slowly and carefully done, a rough dunking by someone else would most likely not work because my chin or forehead would hit the rim. With my head in it top first (like a hat) the depth just about covered my eyes (nose would not have been under water).

With a towel around the face there is no way it would fit. I think most likely what did happen is it was tried and didn't work and that is why the bath was used. It seems to me to be something so outside anyone's field of imagination (using a saucepan and towel) to even invent such a thing, that there was a grain of truth in it and she has embellished with the dunking.

MOO.
I feel you. The things I've done to test theories..my partner and kids think im nuts. Was very tempted to try the saucepan theory but I'm home alone today and knowing my luck I'd end up wedged in.

Im very confused where this saucepan scenario has come from. As you say everything is so out there it is genuinely bizarre

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 
  • #362
* GRAPHIC DETAILS WARNING do not read if you do not want to know about waterboarding *

I did a little research myself on waterboarding, because I wanted to understand what the towel was about. The towel (or cloth) is used to absorb water so that when the water isn't being poured over the face the victim (if they had been holding their breath) would naturally have to take a breath at some point, and would inhale water from the soaked towel.

It's the first time we've been given any information that Sophie was waterboarded. Has SK invented it?

I don't know, I was looking back through the autopsy findings yesterday:

5 fractured ribs and fractured breast bone - consistent with a kick, stamp or severe blow - up to 3 days before her death on September 18th. (So by this time frame, this did not occur then when Sophie was beaten with a cable on September 13th.) Sophie had difficulty walking - prosecutor says most likely because of these internal injuries.
2 bruises left arm, 3 bruises on back

Right eye socket bruised
a number of blows or punches to face
fractured cheek bone and jaw
fractured teeth
cracked skull - top part of skull MISSING
blood in nostrils
lungs inflated - can occur from drowning.

I'm having a hard time believing that these injuries could have happened by Sophie slipping on a tiled surface in the bath as OM said originally, even if it was the result of a punch. I would think the most that would cause would be very bad bruising.
 
  • #363
  • #364
* GRAPHIC DETAILS WARNING do not read if you do not want to know about waterboarding *

I did a little research myself on waterboarding, because I wanted to understand what the towel was about. The towel (or cloth) is used to absorb water so that when the water isn't being poured over the face the victim (if they had been holding their breath) would naturally have to take a breath at some point, and would inhale water from the soaked towel.

It's the first time we've been given any information that Sophie was waterboarded. Has SK invented it?

I don't know, I was looking back through the autopsy findings yesterday:

5 fractured ribs and fractured breast bone - consistent with a kick, stamp or severe blow - up to 3 days before her death on September 18th. (So by this time frame, this did not occur then when Sophie was beaten with a cable on September 13th.) Sophie had difficulty walking - prosecutor says most likely because of these internal injuries.
2 bruises left arm, 3 bruises on back

Right eye socket bruised
a number of blows or punches to face
fractured cheek bone and jaw
fractured teeth
cracked skull - top part of skull MISSING
blood in nostrils
lungs inflated - can occur from drowning.

I'm having a hard time believing that these injuries could have happened by Sophie slipping on a tiled surface in the bath as OM said originally, even if it was the result of a punch. I would think the most that would cause would be very bad bruising.

Whilst difficult to read imaging what this poor young woman went through, I wonder whether they can catch her out on the admission of this. It has not been bought up before. With those injuries from the previous days it is not hard to imagine she may have even had partially collapsed lungs.


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  • #365
I've put together a lot of quotes which seem to show a thread of truth, and according to witness K, both of them were in the bathroom with Sophie on Sept 18th (witness K was not talking about an earlier occasion on Sept 13th) and it was after the last interrogation, she was in pyjamas, so it was nothing to do with obtaining a confession.

A witness, who cannot be named for legal reasons, heard Ms Lionnet screaming from the bathroom with 'lots of splashing of water' and it seeping under the door.

http://: http://www.dailymail.co.uk...reamed-abuse-sobbing-nanny.html#ixzz5EL9IYRiF

Kouider allegedly told the witness, who cannot be identified, that she would not let her out of the bath until she “told the truth”.

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/na...was____manipulative____and____controlling___/

On the seventh day of the hearing of the alleged murderers of the au pair Sophie Lionnet, the jurors had to hear the chilling testimony of a person who cannot be identified for legal reasons.

He reported what he heard this famous September 18, 2017 evening, in the last moments of the young Auboise.

The witness told the police that he heard Sophie "screaming in the bathroom" - where Sabrina Kouider and Ouissem Medouni were - and heard "a lot of" splash ". "I knew they were drowning her because he (Medouni) was telling her " breathe, breathe "and you can only do that when you're underwater. "

According to testimony in The Times newspaper, the witness shared a discussion with Sabrina Kouider at his recorded hearing that the jurors were able to hear: "I asked," Are you drowning her? " She said no, but it was not a real answer. She said she was talking to her ... It was like she wanted to get out of the tub, but they did not want to let her go. "

The next day, Sabrina Kouider told him that Sophie Lionnet had left prematurely in France "because of theft, threats and lies". On that day, September 19, the witness said that he saw Sabrina Kouider happier and more relaxed.
https://lejournal.online/2018/03/28...-lionnet-savais-quils-etaient-train-de-noyer/

There were six taped recordings in total – all taking place on 18th September.
The final one was at 6.11 pm and lasted just over 50 minutes.
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...20-Sep-2017-*Arrests*&p=14048398#post14048398

The Judge explained last week (I am worried they will get off on a manslaughter charge), but stupid the Judge ain`t! He explained to the jury that manslaughter is when death was not intentional. However when a person is treated in such a way - harmed in such a way - that there is a good chance of the harm leading to death - then that is classified as murder. Words to that effect anyway.
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...20-Sep-2017-*Arrests*&p=14048464#post14048464

Medouni described two incidents on September 13…
When he got home, he found Kouider kneeling beside Miss Lionnet in the bath.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa...lectrical-cable-court-told.html#ixzz5ELMVRImC

Describing the events, Mr Medouni said: "Sabrina woke me up around 01:30. She said Sophie was not breathing.
Mr Medouni told jurors he was "shocked" to find Ms Lionnet in the bath after being told she had stopped breathing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43801600

First signed defence statement (manslaughter) 5.1.2018 Said they were desperate for SL to give them the phone she was using to correspond with MW. They were forcing her head under water. OM admitted to punching her.
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...20-Sep-2017-*Arrests*&p=14066007#post14066007

Kouider said she saw Medouni standing with Ms Lionnet in the bathroom before she went to sleep.
http://www.borehamwoodtimes.co.uk/n...partner_waterboarded_and_killed_French_nanny/

SK version of the night of the murder is confusing.
Apparently OM got a saucepan and towel and kept putting Sophie`s head into the saucepan, wanting to know where the phone was. There was something about the phone being behind a washing machine and Sophie falling over the washing machine. OM and Sophie somehow ended up in the bathroom where OM continued to put Sophie`s head in the saucepan and the towel as well...sorry totally confusing I know...
Story now changes from K waking up, to both children waking up and SK taking them into her bedroom.
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...20-Sep-2017-*Arrests*&p=14086936#post14086936
 
  • #366
Witness K hearing Sophie screaming means she was still alive, so it can't be telling her to breathe after finding her already dead in the bath.
 
  • #367
[FONT=&amp]"He wanted to have sex with me. I'm even shocked to talk about it, it's embarrassing."[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]
Orlando Pownall QC, for Medouni, asserted: "You suggesting Mr Medouni was insistent on having sex with you when Sophie was lying dead in the bed is nonsense."[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]
Kouider replied: "I said 'What are you doing?' When he finished he said he was so stressed."[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mr Pownall went on: "If one was looking at the two mirror images, would you agree there is an important difference between you and him? First, over many years you have made false accusations against a number of people."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Kouider said: "I never made a false accusation against anybody."

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Mr Pownall referred to a diagnosis in May 2017 of depression and borderline personality disorder.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Kouider admitted she had not been,"well" but added: "I don't know where you are getting this information."
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/...&utm_campaign=google_news&utm_content=sitemap

more to read at link[/FONT]
 
  • #368
"I don't know where you are getting this information" - notice she doesn't deny it.
 
  • #369
The lawyer said: "Secondly, over a number of years you have shown bad temper and violence towards a number of people.
"The further difference - you always blame somebody else for your problems."
Kouider denied it.

Mr Pownall told Kouider: "You make up dreadful stories about people, often of a sexual nature.

"You can suddenly become aggressive. You do pick on the weak and exploit them."
The defendant replied: "That's not true. I'm not crazy. I'm not losing my mind."

The barrister suggested she had even lied by denying suicide attempts and incidents of self-harm when she was younger.


He read doctors' notes detailing how she had jumped from a fourth-floor balcony on her 18th birthday and drank cleaning fluid after breaking up with her fiance when she was 20.


Mr Pownall suggested that, contrary to what Kouider had told jurors, Medouni was delighted to be "punching above his weight" with her.


She was the one who was "ashamed" of their relationship, telling people he was her cousin or brother, he said.


Kouider was so "fiercely jealous, possessive and controlling" that she once set fire to curtains, he added.


The defendant denied it, blaming a candle for what happened.


https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/m...-nanny-lay-dead-nearby-court-told-840499.html
 
  • #370
  • #371
Thank you so much for the posts and updates. This gets more and more upsetting by the day. Poor Sophie.
 
  • #372
It makes no sense, said the lawyer, "it's the fruit of your imagination." "It's not my imagination, it's the truth," hammered Sabrina Kouider, in a dialogue of the deaf with the lawyer.

She accused the fathers of her two children and Ouissem Medouni of being violent, unfaithful and having problems with alcohol or drugs.

"You really have not had a chance with the men you have chosen," said Pownall.
"Yes, I really did not have a chance," replied Sabrina Kouider While the three men described a woman unpredictable and capable of sudden fits of anger, Sabrina Kouider denied any aggression, ensuring being "a very shy person ".

However, she acknowledged shouting from time to time, putting this on the account of its "Mediterranean" nature.


When the lawyer mentioned a May 2017 medical report stating that Ms. Kouider was suffering from depression and personality disorders, the 30-year-old was annoyed: "I do not know where you get this information from," she said. she started.


She denied trying to commit suicide and self-harm when she was younger. The lawyer read medical reports that Sabrina Kouider had committed "voluntary defenestration", throwing herself off a balcony on her eighteenth birthday, and that she had been drinking detergent after a breakup at the age of 18. 20 years.


The trial, which began on March 19, continues. The jury should retire to deliberate on May 9th.


https://www.lematin.ch/faits-divers/avocat-compagnon-attaque-laccusee/story/22935776
 
  • #373
Interesting that OM's counsel has today introduced her personality disorder in his cross-exam. I wonder if that means there is going to be any related direction or expert evidence for the jury - that it is not a defence of diminished responsibility.
 
  • #374
[FONT=&amp]Mr barrister said later: "Part of your illness I suggest is you suspect everybody of doing dreadful things, you record people, you make people take drug tests."[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]He pointed out a number of police reports dating from when Kouider had been living with former Boyzone star Mark Walton.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]On one occasion she alleged Mr Walton sexually abused her cat.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]Mr Pownall said: "Are you seriously suggesting Mr Walton sexually abused the cat?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]"We have heard the evidence of Mr Walton, you didn't have a cat and he did not sexually abuse it."[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]He asserted Kouider was obsessed by Mr Walton after they broke up and she went back to her "lapdog" Medouni.[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]She denied it, saying she was more concerned about her fashion business than thinking about her music mogul ex-boyfriend.[/FONT]
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/cri...she-lay-dead-nearby-court-hears-a3829681.html
 
  • #375
Hi all,

Thanks Tortoise for your great updates - will save me some time as a lot that took place today has now been covered!

I think OM certainly "enjoyed" today (as did we all in fact - plenty of cringe worthy moments as we listened to SK deny..deny..deny!) You know when you see these films where one person somehow manages to beat off a huge army of attackers by picking them off one by one - well, I think SK was attempting to do that with the story of every person who had the misfortune to met her throughout her unpleasant life - but was really quite a laughing stock.

Anyway, after the fire she walked around looking for "the house", but "too afraid" to knock on any doors so she went to shop in Marks and Spencers instead :thinking: , then bought some more nail polish remover, went back to give to OM, (didn`t go into garden/lots of smoke in the house), then took the children out of school early and took them to "Flip Out".

During three interviews over the coming days, she admits she lied about when she had last seen Sophie, and telling people that she had left with MW. Also lied about knowing Sophie was in the garden, stating, "I was not myself. I had never been in this situation before..."

When charged with murder she said, "It was `horrible`. It had never happened to me before". :rolleyes:

P (barrister) told her what she was saying was a mirror image of what OM said, but with one important difference - that there is evidence going back for many, many years of her false accusations, bad temper, violence and it was always someone else`s fault. He proceeded to give many examples - all her accusations about the three main men in her life (all eerily similar), her jobs (she said when she was a nanny they loved her - but was sacked from these jobs as she was sacked from other non nannying jobs). Said Nicole was "funny in the head" when it is actually * her * who has long standing mental health problems/said Steven Brown - N`s lover was a liar etc. SK replied to this that he (Steven) "tried to do things with her, and wanted foursomes and even wanted to include Sophie.."

P stated her "truth" and the real truth were two different things.

He carried on giving many examples of her abnormal behaviour and basically the inability to have normal relationships, hold down jobs etc.

He had a wealth of medical records going back many years which he went through.

He went through financial records stating that she rarely worked, OM paid for a lot of things which she didn`t want through her account as she was claiming benefits etc.

He made reference to the fact that she was presently sedated to "stop her from flying off the handle".

Every single piece of evidence, (most backed up with proof/documents, SK denied giving excuses ranging from, the police "led" her son in his statement, medical records had not been translated properly (she`d had interpreters at various hospital assessments in the past).

She could prove everything. She had documents, she had letters, she had this, she had that. Ask her mother. Ask this one and that one. She has proof...

There is a lot more I wanted to write but tired and will take ages.

Will try and write more tomorrow (but will have tomorrow`s to write up as well :eek:

I hope the prosecutor brings up the clumps of Sophie`s hair that were found in the police search of the bins as evidence has been given on at least two occasions of SK`s mad habit of yanking the hair of girls who dared to even look at her the wrong way!

P.S. Tortoise - we were right about her diagnoses of BPD :peace:

:bedtime:
 
  • #376
Thank you so much for your updates Michelle. Gosh. She's been sedated - you said a while back you thought she had been. I don't know what I think about that. It means the jury doesn't get to see the usual temperament, which is important. Although I fully understand they want to have her answers and that might not be possible otherwise.

Oh yes, hair in the bin. The autopsy said there was missing scalp and hair, as well as missing skull bone!
 
  • #377
I suppose the relevance of the crowbar incident might now be apparent? Even though the prosecution doesn't appear to have used it, I can't see why DJ would issue a statement in the trial, unless someone was going to assert it was evidence that OM can be violent?

After MW finally stopped paying her rent she was evicted and returned to France for a while. She then returned to London and tried to break into her old flat - the one she'd been evicted from. The Landlord had to call the police.
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...20-Sep-2017-*Arrests*&p=14035481#post14035481

Orlando Pownall QC, defending [OM], asked about an incident when police were called to Kouider’s flat. Mr Pownall said the landlord complained she and a husband or partner had threatened him with a crowbar.


Medouni claimed that Kouider told him it was Mr James, who lived nearby.

https://www.express.co.uk/celebrity-news/952242/blue-singer-duncan-james-crowbar-nanny-murder-trial-sophie-lionnet-sabrina-kouider




[...] a landlord had complained that they damaged the flat's door and threatened him with a crowbar in September 2013, jurors heard.

When asked about the crowbar threat, Medouni said: 'She told me that was him - Duncan.'

Duncan bought the crowbar with cash, went to Kouider's flat while wearing a hat and helped her to damage the door, Medouni said.


The landlord said he was unable to identify who the male was.



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-deny-killing-French-nanny.html#ixzz5ER3oNd9r

Also, before OM`s evidence today, the Judge discussed the evidence re Duncan from yesterday and was confused as to the relevance. It was decided that there was no relevance so it`s not being taken further (that`s my understanding).
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...20-Sep-2017-*Arrests*&p=14063403#post14063403


In a statement read to the Old Bailey today, Mr James said: [...]
'I have never lived on or near Queensway in W2, and I was never involved in any incident with a crow bar.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][...]
[/FONT]
Kouider told the court today that Medouni was the man who accompanied her to her old Queensway flat when she went to collect property, and not Duncan James from Blue.

She said she remembered there being a problem with the landlord, but denied threatening him with a crowbar or seeing that happen.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eeting-French-nanny-killer.html#ixzz5EQzqOvfK

 
  • #378
I can't find any reports as yet. We will have to ply Michelle with lots of coffee tonight.
 
  • #379
Orlando Pownall QC, for Medouni, said: "How many times did you accept you assaulted Sophie?"

Kouider replied: "I told you I don't want to discuss that anymore because I'm not proud of myself."

When pressed, she said: "Once when I hit her with a cable and a second time when I pushed her, and again a third time.

"I never deny I did hit Sophie, it doesn't make me a murderer."

[...]

The defendant, who claimed to have influential friends, denied she had "sold a dream" to Sophie of working with Johnny Depp on a movie, when asked about a Facebook entry the nanny made.

She said: "I never sold Sophie a dream. Like I said she's not good enough. I'm not a producer of a movie. If I have to choose people I will choose the right people, not Sophie."

[...]

The French Algerian went on to accuse police of not taking her complaints about Mark seriously because "I'm not white", the court heard.

She said: "All the time I'm making a complaint and there is no action. It's not normal."

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/woman-admits-attacking-french-nanny-12474415
 
  • #380
:what::jawdrop:
 

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