UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #2

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  • #1,381
This is really helpful, thank you!

On this basis I think there is simply no real evidence at all to convict JC. There is actually nothing, except "he was within 10 miles of where SJL was", "he later went on to abduct and kill a young woman", " he had previous for rape" and "he looks a bit like the efit that HR said was the male outside the SR property". This would just be demolished in court.

THen we have some "sightings" of him that were remembered 10 years after events, which would be demolished in a court, for obvious reasons. These sightings are not worth anything at all.

Maybe it was him but there is no evidence to present to a court except "you know what, he's a bad person who did a similar crime a bit later on, he is the sort of person who would do this. He does look a bit like an efit that one guy gave us who later turned out to be an unreliable witness and is now dead anyway. Some people who don't know him and never met him came forward after we asked them to 10 years later and claim to remember seeing this stranger they never met looking in a shop window". A child could demolish these arguments.

There is no way to prove he was in the area or knew SJL or anyone around her. No one else remembers him knowing her or being around, she had a busy social life so when did she see him when no one else of her mates or circle saw him?

If JC called the estate agency on Saturday and arranged to make a viewing how come SJL did not take down his details and enter them into the system as she was meant to and did every time before? SHe was a diligent employee. Why does Mr Kipper have no first name, no phone number, no address, no details. If he came in on the Monday someone would have seen him and heard him, also if you are going to abduct and murder someone would you parade yourself in front of their colleagues minutes before you committed this crime? Obviously not. Either he was a last minute telephone booking, or most likely made him up and the other staff knew this as it was probably something they did from time to time. No questions asked, don't do it very often.

There really is no case here.

Plus he has already been convicted in the Court of Twitter and A Few True Crime Books so it would not even be a fair trial. THe courts could not allow an unfair trial based on zero evidence that appears to be wishful thinking on behalf of the police that this wrong un is also responsible for this crime.

If he is responsible it is horrific that he isn't punished for it but we can't try and convict people based on "well he did it to someone else".

Yep, essentially all circumstantial. Unless you place someone with the victim and in the area at the relevant times or disprove all alibis then you'll be lucky to get a charging authorisation, let alone a guilty verdict.

I think JC and SJL had already met and he was pursuing her. She was somewhat disquieted by his behaviour and wanted to let him down carefully but tell him she didn't wasn't interested.

I think he telephoned her in the office on that Saturday prior to her going missing, asking to meet. She saw it as the ideal opportunity to deal with the situation and they arranged to meet on Monday afternoon (28th July). Either JC had told her his name was Kipper (various alleged logic) or the entry in the diary above she had written "142 Wardo - take contract". This is Wardo Avenue. Allegedly SJL had an acquaintance that used to live in Wardo Avenue, his name was John Herring (eliminated from any involvement). I think that Suzy created a bogus entry to enable her to meet JC (no record car created in estate agents) and maybe intuitive word association made her come up with 'Kipper' as in 'Smoked Mackerel".....as in to defeat someone!

Just MOO....nothing very detectivey ;)
 
  • #1,382
I think I would like more clarity on who went where just before and after SJL left the office.

I had suspicions that some viewings were being covered that day MS said that the office junior and secretary did not do face to face viewing we now know thats not the case that particular day. By my reckoning there may have only been 2 people in the office for some length of time that day.

I still think there is more we arent being told about the movements of people in the office that day. Until we get to the bottom of this things will still not make sense.
MOO

Can I ask why you feel that the timings of other staff in and out of the office would be a legitimate line of enquiry now?

From my perspective the relationship of the other staff with JSL and their respective activities on the 28th July 1986 would have featured in the the initial enquiry. I assume that nothing out of the ordinary was discovered so it did not become a continued line of enquiry for the police.

I would think that documentaries, newspapers and criminologists have only focussed on the concerning detail and not the many lines of enquiry that were identified, investigated and eliminated as 'of no concern'.
 
  • #1,383
I think it is important to maintain objectivity and understand the task faced by the police....they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. I find the best way to do that is to reflect how we would have gone about managing the very early stages of such an investigation:

The only information is that a young, attractive, white, middle class, estate agent has gone out to conduct a viewing on her own with a 'Mr Kipper', and not returned. Her car has gone from where it was parked but is not or near the address she noted in the diary. Friends, family and local hospitals have been spoken to with no trace. There is no sign that she has been home and she has not kept her 18:00 appointment. Time is of the essence as this is totally out of character. SJL may be at risk of harm by persons unknown. You have to go public but how much do you say, too little and you'll be swamped with responses and that it will be impossible to process at the required speed. Too much and you will get fewer responses but you know there will be a proportion of detailed statements from those who have convinced themselves they saw something they didn't, promoting lines of enquiry based on nothing ....how do you tell? The clock is still ticking and the longer it ticks the less chance you have of finding JSL alive.....quick do something! You have a limit on resources for house-to-house enquiries, taking statements, investigating SJL's background and ruling out people she knows who could have motive to harm her....quick, effective, informed, justifiable, decisions are required. You have the press, your bosses, and SJL's family and friends leaning on you.....they want action and information fast.

OK so mistakes were made and as with the Yorkshire Ripper Enquiry, card indexing systems for cross-referencing all the information coming into a high profile investigation, in a world with more television to reach the masses, were totally unsuited to managing such an investigation. SJL is still so strong in our psyche and we all have 'what if's', particularly as DL and PL were denied the opportunity to lay their Suzy to rest. This is made all the more raw as JC is now reportedly at the end of his life and many believe he knows, me included....although his personality means he would be highly unlikely to give up his secrets. Everyone now wants the same thing....to find Suzy and bring her home. I was working at NSY at the time and my journey to work took me through Fulham. So like those of you who have a connection to the area or the estate agency business we often feel more connected to these events.

The Met investigation team went to Bristol, as you say. They were given full access to the Avon and Somerset investigation into the SB's abduction. No conclusive link was found connecting JC with SJL's disappearance, I acknowledge that. However, nor did the assessment of the intelligence/evidence rule JC out of SJL's disappearance. It is important to understand that if crimes in separate areas of forces or between forces can be linked it provides a situation in which collective resources can be managed more effectively and it can often provide additional weight to the evidence. To link investigations without conclusive evidence could undermine the whole investigation. This is not the same as having no evidence against JC for the SJL's disappearance, which is what you incorrectly allude to.

The dead end was reached because in spite of all the media publicity, the police could not confirm SJL's movements or identify the male who was seen with a person we believe to be SJL, at the material times. From my understanding the key statements at the time were uncorroborated and some were contradicted by other independent witnesses, yet the sightings they conveyed were unable to establish a reliable timeline of SJL's and the movement of possible vehicles. Eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable and open to misbelief, suggestion (conscious and otherwise). Yes other witnesses came forwards years later with valuable information, but why years later? I'll never understand that!

Interviewing witness and statement taking is a skill and maybe this was viewed as more of a laborious task in 1986. Witness statements need to comply with R v Turnbull and the ADVOKATE mnemonic, relating to identification evidence. An officer understanding the principles of cognitive memory and being patient will draw out out all that a witness can genuinely recall in their own words.....no suggestion or letting slip any details in the police domain or from what other witnesses have suggested.

The review by Ch Supt Jim Dickie from 2000 took place as a result of the seriousness of the case, the passage of time and the high profile nature. The original evidence was looked at with fresh pairs of eyes, modern detective training (then) and updated investigation procedures and tools. Many of the existing investigation team will have retired by 2000, particularly the senior investigators. The review included all the index card data being uploaded to the HOLMES 2 investigative database, a significant task. That the original HOLMES wasn't used in 1986, although in its infancy, is likely another key error. Although DL and PL no doubt wanted a continued/reopened investigation and said so, that would not have influenced the police decision. It was commenced because it was operationally appropriate.

The McPherson Report was concerned with the discriminatory response/investigation by the Met Police Service to crimes when the victims, families, friends and witnesses are from ethnic minorities and was a consequence of the the investigation arising from the racist murder of Stephen Lawrence. I consider your point to be moot in this situation.

What is more likely is that DL's pro-active approach and dynamic personality rubbed some of the police up the wrong way.....their problem, not hers. She would do anything to find her daughter and rightly so. Any half decent parent would. Some coppers lose the human touch and the empathy needed to police effectively, when they have been around crime and criminals for too long and start to get an 'us and them' psyche.....they don't like having their cages rattled by outsiders, particularly those who are eloquent, composed, intelligent and knowledgeable....as DL was in every way.

No reviews start from scratch. A review looks at the original investigation, identifies evidential gaps that need to be addressed and corrects any errors, where possible, with a view to progressing the investigation towards arrest, charge and conviction. Of course in this case finding SJL is overarching, both for the family and friends but also to progress the investigation.

Jim Dickey approached the review with an entirely open mind. All the possible identified suspects were eliminated during the original enquiry, except 'Mr Kipper' or a unknown person with which it is believed that SJL arranged to meet. The process of elimination should have been reviewed as part of the review. So known partners, ex-partners, friends, colleagues, acquaintances, admirers, landlords, temporary landlords, known persons of concern at the time will all have been reviewed in respect of both the original and any new evidence and either featured as being worthy of further investigation or eliminated.

The only identified suspect, based on a wealth of circumstantial evidence that could not be ruled out was JC. In fact new circumstantial evidence was obtained which further supported JC as a subject of significant interest. The issue is that without being able to place JC with SJL or in the immediate vicinity at the material times and without evidence directly linking him to SJL or her car then the circumstantial evidence is just not enough for the CPS to authorise a charge. If anyone else had popped up who had an MO which fitted, was a serious violent offender towards women and was known to have frequented the area recently, then they would have been subject to investigation also. No such person came across the police radar that couldn't be eliminated. The views of JD and other investigators involved in the 2000 review can be seen at the below link (watch from 2:57).

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What has to be said is that whenever JC was in an area, terrible things happened, things of a gravity that normally happen very infrequently.....if he or someone matching his description is known to be in that area and someone with his MO of trying to charm women from a certain demographic (SJL's demographic) with champagne, flowers etc, whilst frequenting wine bars in the Hammersmith/Fulham area allegedly including the PoW PH, approaching houses for sale speculatively and departing quickly when the husband shows himself, and with access to a car then he is quite rightly the key suspect, if there is nothing to eliminate him and no one else is on the radar.

I don't for one moment think that the statement by the police about JC being the only suspect and their conviction that he was responsible for SJL's abduction, likely rape and murder would prejudice any subsequent trial. The evidence the police require will most likely require SJL's body to be found and excellent forensic evidence to be obtained from it and the scene. This is not impossible after so many years. JC will always have claimed that he couldn't possibly get a fair trial anyway, after all the publicity and knowledge of his previous offending behaviour. The strict instructions to any jury from the judge to only try the defendant on the evidence in court would counter this. It's highly likely another moot point though as JC is likely to depart this mortal coil soon and may he burn in hell for all eternity for all the lives he has destroyed with his pure evil.

You make many unevidenced claims, are you repeating DV chapter and verse or on commission? Irrespective of DV's investigative credentials he is not privy to all the evidence/intelligence obtained by the police, of which only a small part is in the public domain. DV is like a dog with a bone, quite possibly with a personal agenda other than wanting to find Suzy. He knows how it works and to be honest I'm very surprised that he doesn't realise that he is not working with anywhere near the complete picture. He also make sweeping statements in dismissing what the police have said, but doesn't counter with a factual argument. Hell, we can all do that, I'm even guilty of it myself and it's very lazy if not a little crass.

Think of all the things the state can do to gather intelligence, providing it is necessary, proportionate and can't be achieved less intrusively. Do you think these feature in the police investigation? Why do you think the police are so convinced of JC's involvement? Maybe consider the impact of PII applications by defence counsel and how any Crown Court judge would most likely refuse on the grounds of preventing a fair trial. The Crown would walk away from the case as they would have to reveal something they do not wish to and which could impact a whole range of other investigations and even the national security.

Why do you allege that the Lamplugh's provided JC as the lead? Not so! After the rape in Reading in October 1986, for which JC was ultimately convicted, Thames Valley Police put forward JC's name to the SJL investigation team. So JC was now known to the SJL investigation, albeit not profiled sufficiently then. After JC was arrested for SB's abduction he became of far greater interest and his profile was developed. I have already explained why the two investigations were not linked.

The police have a key suspect in JC. In JC they did all they could to disprove that he could be involved. They couldn't but their investigation strengthened his suspect status. Certainly in 2000 the Major Investigation Teams followed the evidence and spent much time trying to disprove a suspects involvement. The role of the police is to obtain all evidence that either proves or disproves a suspects involvement in an alleged offence! I can guarantee you that the gold standard teams, who investigate serious crimes do this to the letter. Investigations costing into seven figures can be lost at Court otherwise.

I'm done with this post. My departing request is consider that the police have a great deal more trump cards than anyone else can see. In the UK they sure aren't going to declare them readily and then only sparingly. The original investigation was compromised because of incompetency and no doubt evidence was lost. Lessons were learnt in the intervening years, people were sent out to pasture, police investigation skills and technology improved significantly and new, keen, open-minded, experienced detectives moved in. We should trust in their professionalism, judgement, and integrity certainly in Major Crime Investigation....they are the cream of the crop but they play their cards very close.
Excellent summary, I understand that DV doesn’t have access to all the data the police have and according to his book they have taunted him with just one thing, they diary.
Given that the police reinvestigations were conducted using better and more advanced techniques I’d have expected them to have concluded that of all the places Suzy Lamplugh could have gone, the only one not searched was the PoW pub.
The only evidence that she didn’t actually go there is the word of the then temporary landlord, who, if involved would say that. The police don’t need anything but the possibility that a crime may have been committed to search this location.
On National TV RR of the Met said that the case was still open and that they would leave no stone unturned, to the layman this just seems like a play on words. DV gave them a possibility, one that may have happened and if this was being investigated today I would expect to be looked at.
However, its not and again to the layman it looks like they have something against DV and this is the reason they won’t take his narrative with any seriousness.
The police have spent a small fortune running around digging up places here and there when someone said JC told them he buried Suzy Lamplugh there. Here we have a narrative that at the very least makes sence and compared with the polices other ventures would not cost that much to search.
If they have some kind of axe to grind with DV they should grasp the nettle and prove once and for all that he’s wrong.
I have no personal allegiance to either the JD or DV, my only interest is to bring the Lamplugh family closure, this IMO should be what we all want.
So if JD is correct take a serious look at the Grand Union canal at Gallows Bridge, and then search the PoW, at least this would be making progress.
 
  • #1,384
Can I ask why you feel that the timings of other staff in and out of the office would be a legitimate line of enquiry now?

From my perspective the relationship of the other staff with JSL and their respective activities on the 28th July 1986 would have featured in the the initial enquiry. I assume that nothing out of the ordinary was discovered so it did not become a continued line of enquiry for the police.

I would think that documentaries, newspapers and criminologists have only focussed on the concerning detail and not the many lines of enquiry that were identified, investigated and eliminated as 'of no concern'.

The second investigation threw so much doubt on how the first investigation was carried out, things not documented correctly some things not acted on. If things were not as we have been led to believe then what is correct?

Its unfortunate there isnt' a Cold Case team asigned to the case I have found access to them in the past most helpful.
 
  • #1,385
This is very confusing he was actually speaking on the programme
Are you suggesting JC was not telling the truth?

Not at all, I could quote you many instances where people have been quoted on documentaries or in books after being interviewed and their accounts contradict each other. I think it was assumed from day one that SL went to the viewing and that Kipper was real so people obligingly said what they assumed to have happened based on their normal experience. The staff at Sturgis including JC just a few days ago when I discussed it with him "assumed" there were two sets of keys when I explained the probability of their only being one set of keys he pondered on this then concluded just like others that SL put in the false entry to go get her stuff back. He said she was stressed about her stuff, Until I discussed the matter with him he assumed there were two sets of keys, why? because he thought that was what happened he never once since questioned it. He remembers discussing the keys with SL but cannot remember if she got them from the hook. I think when he said what he did on that documentary he said what he "assumed" what he believed happened. The narrative was assumed and believed from day one and we now have to question everything and see what still stands up and what must be re-evaluated and for me most things need a fresh look. As I said before 90% of the assumed narrative is wrong IMO.

SL did not lose her stuff on Friday, she never went to or intended to go to shorrolds, kipper was invented by SL and never existed, SL did not collect her car from Whittingstall Road after leaving the office etc etc
 
  • #1,386
@TimFisher1965 does JC remember anything about SJL's final phone conversation in the office?

 
  • #1,387
@TimFisher1965 does JC remember anything about SJL's final phone conversation in the office?

I asked him this he does not recall the last call and he took no calls for SL before during or after on that day
 
  • #1,388
How many calls did she make or receive that morning?
 
  • #1,389
Agree with all this and everything else you wrote. In fact, a key question really is, why actually do the police think he did it? There is no evidence to persuade them to this view, so why do they insist on it?

I think to answer this, you have understand the police's MO and success record in murder cases. The police think they're pretty good at clearing up murders, with a claimed clearup rate of about 90%. But that's largely a statistical artefact, arrived at by counting only the 750 or so a year where there's a body and someone's obviously been killed. There are in addition 170,000 missing persons per year. 167,500 or so of the missing do turn up, but the remaining 2,500 permanently vanish. This is because they're dead, of course, but they aren't counted into the murder totals because they're considered only "missing". When you include those 2,500 as well, the police only solve 75 of 3,250 murders a year, which is about 2% of these crimes.

What persuades me that this estimate is about right is that you can sort of audit / sense-check it against police success with other crimes. When you do, you see it is a police failure rate consistent with their overall record, i.e. about 94%. The police fail to solve about 98% of reported burglaries, for example. So my Fermi estimates that there are 3,250 murders really, and that 98% go unsolved, look consistent with police performance generally. In fact, if you were a stats nerd, you could probably SWAG how many of the 2,500 are murdered by inferring it from the police clear-up rate: I make it about 95%.

These crimes - missing people who've in fact been murdered, break-ins - have something in common: they're usually committed by strangers. Acknowledged murders aren't, but permanent disappearances are another matter. Burglars don't often burgle people they know, which means it could have been anyone. Likewise if a woman is found dead in the house and there's a bloke with a knife it's easy to solve. That's one of the easy 750. If she's killed at apparent random, that's one of the 2,500, and the police find those pretty much insoluble. It could have been anyone. If you're a murderer and you can make your random victim disappear, you're safe, basically.

Understanding this very well, the police have historically evolved an approach to solving these crimes: they fit up the local weirdo. If there's no weirdo, they frame a suitable known villain. If there's no evidence, they may make some. Evidence that acquits the local weirdo or suitable villain is suppressed.

So Stefan Kiszko was fitted up for the murder of Lesley Molseed. He was retarded, owned a number of girlie magazines and there was a bag of sweets in his car. He was obviously guilty so he was duly fitted up. It was only after he had done years in prison that it emerged he was clinically infertile whereas her killer had left sperm on his victim's body. The police knew this, and other evidence that absolved him, but withheld it from his defence.

Joanna Yeates was murdered in 2010. The police initially accused his landlord, who looked a bit weird and hence probably did it. They leaked information to the press, who tried him in their pages and later had to pay libel damages when someone else was jailed.

Jill Dando was forced to the ground and killed by one shot to the head, fired by a thin, bearded man described by several witnesses. Police fitted up the chubby, clean-shaven Barry George, the local weirdo. He was interested in guns but didn't own any and had a shrine to JD in his house, although the police couldn't show that it was there before she was killed. He was duly released on appeal and the French now think a hitman killed the wrong blonde BBC journalist.

Colin Stagg was the local unemployed loser weirdo when Rachel Nickell was killed. There were no good witnesses but the police decided to fit him up, so they got a WPC to make some evidence. She pretended to be another weirdo and befriended him. Wearing a wire, she tried to persuade him that she'd be really impressed if he'd killed her, and he might even get sex (he was a virgin). When the judge cancelled the trial because the police evidence was a disgrace, the police sulkily announced they weren't looking for anyone else. Robert Napper was convicted of her murder.

For a long time - until they decided it was the bloke from Wearside - the Ripper police thought it was a local weirdo minicab driver who was an alleged peeping tom. Every time the Ripper killed they arrested him, held him illegally for days and tried to make him confess. Some of the senior officers involved had previously framed the Birmingham Six, who had been fitted up because it was an IRA bomb and they were Irish, so they were suitable.

The SJL case was always going to be challenging because having exhausted her acquaintances, it was logically a stranger who did it. Lacking a local weirdo to fit up, the police seized gratefully on JC and decided he did it, even saying so in public. They haven't anything on which to base even a charge, but it fits him because he's a wrong 'un and they think he did other things too. By putting it out there they get people to come forward with "evidence" that they've made. It's only because of those bureaucrats at the CPS that he's not been charged.

The police, therefore, almost certainly don't actually think JC did it, because the evidence would not persuade anyone. However, they maintain he did it because this way it looks like they've got their man, and he'll do for it very well. A really good frame is when nobody cares who you've framed, and nobody cares about Cannan.

Evenin', all.

That you have chosen to join WS, where intelligent and considered examination of factual information in the public domain is valued and respected, is a mystery to me.

Your appear to have an axe to grind with UK LE for some reason. Yes you allude to some historic miscarriages of justice, reprehensible investigation methods and abstract failures by the police service. I would add Hillsborough and Daniel Morgan and there are no doubt many others.....the majority of which are from a time when policing was definitely not as accountable as it is now.

The majority of your examples are historic and primarily pre PACE and RIPA, which were brought in to legislate police procedure, most importantly with regard to removing a persons liberty, using intrusive techniques and the use of informants.

It is disingenuous to assert the murder clear up rate is flawed because so many missing people are just so because they have been murdered. I can't directly prove a negative any more than you can. You make no mention of those persons who don't want to be found and others who have committed suicide and had no intention of being found. Yes there are people on the margins of society who are not missed by anyone. This is a blight on society in general rather than the police.

In the vast majority of cases one needs a body where it is apparent or subsequently established that a third party was unlawfully concerned directly in that death. This is the stage at which it is classified as a murder/manslaughter and features in the clear up or unsolved statistics. Anything less would make the figures a nonsense.

Very few people have the criminal inclination, means, methods or knowledge to dispose of someone else without there being some kind of investigation as to their whereabouts. Modern investigation methods and technology make the likelihood that such serious crime is solved far greater. Investigation is not an exact science though as there are so many variables involved, including a huge lack of policing resources to target volume crimes and return to pro-active policing, crime reduction initiatives and beat policing, which together work fabulously well.

From all you say it is clear that you don't comment from a position of knowledge and professional experience of the Police and Courts system in England and Wales. You seem to have an axe to grind towards the police for whatever reason, real or imagined. You but make your case with a complete lack of any genuine insight or depth of knowledge, with a few cherry picked historic cases to make an 'argument'.

Where is the balance with the tenacious investigation of devastating terrorist attacks, Operation Ventetic, which saw many of most dangerous offenders given long prison sentences, the Essex lorry deaths from evil people smuggling, the ever continuing work of targeting organised groups of paedophiles on the internet who seek to harm our children from the anonymity of the internet and the dark web. There are many incredible officers and police staff doing dedicated work with external partners.

The police seem to be having issues with discipline and integrity. To demonstrate inclusivity and address the officer shortage, standards have dropped. Ultimately the police need people with honesty, integrity, intelligence, inclusivity, discipline, a sound moral code and empathy. Such people are made, not born. They obtain these values from their parents, guardians, teachers, coaches, other role models and their peers who also demonstrate these values.

It was a privilege to be a police officer. I always impressed on probationary officers that they had the power to remove someone's liberty, invade their privacy and compel them to do or not to do certain things. These powers should always be used wisely, only as necessary and proportionately.

The police are the public and the public are the police. Be a supporter of good police practice, play your part as a good member of society and be part of the solution for a safer society by not attacking the thin blue line of the present with the failures of their predecessors.
 
  • #1,390
Not at all, I could quote you many instances where people have been quoted on documentaries or in books after being interviewed and their accounts contradict each other. I think it was assumed from day one that SL went to the viewing and that Kipper was real so people obligingly said what they assumed to have happened based on their normal experience. The staff at Sturgis including JC just a few days ago when I discussed it with him "assumed" there were two sets of keys when I explained the probability of their only being one set of keys he pondered on this then concluded just like others that SL put in the false entry to go get her stuff back. He said she was stressed about her stuff, Until I discussed the matter with him he assumed there were two sets of keys, why? because he thought that was what happened he never once since questioned it. He remembers discussing the keys with SL but cannot remember if she got them from the hook. I think when he said what he did on that documentary he said what he "assumed" what he believed happened. The narrative was assumed and believed from day one and we now have to question everything and see what still stands up and what must be re-evaluated and for me most things need a fresh look. As I said before 90% of the assumed narrative is wrong IMO.

SL did not lose her stuff on Friday, she never went to or intended to go to shorrolds, kipper was invented by SL and never existed, SL did not collect her car from Whittingstall Road after leaving the office etc etc

Perhaps JC could consider joining websleuths Im sure he would be very welcome here.
 
  • #1,391
Excellent summary, I understand that DV doesn’t have access to all the data the police have and according to his book they have taunted him with just one thing, they diary.
Given that the police reinvestigations were conducted using better and more advanced techniques I’d have expected them to have concluded that of all the places Suzy Lamplugh could have gone, the only one not searched was the PoW pub.
The only evidence that she didn’t actually go there is the word of the then temporary landlord, who, if involved would say that. The police don’t need anything but the possibility that a crime may have been committed to search this location.
On National TV RR of the Met said that the case was still open and that they would leave no stone unturned, to the layman this just seems like a play on words. DV gave them a possibility, one that may have happened and if this was being investigated today I would expect to be looked at.
However, its not and again to the layman it looks like they have something against DV and this is the reason they won’t take his narrative with any seriousness.
The police have spent a small fortune running around digging up places here and there when someone said JC told them he buried Suzy Lamplugh there. Here we have a narrative that at the very least makes sence and compared with the polices other ventures would not cost that much to search.
If they have some kind of axe to grind with DV they should grasp the nettle and prove once and for all that he’s wrong.
I have no personal allegiance to either the JD or DV, my only interest is to bring the Lamplugh family closure, this IMO should be what we all want.
So if JD is correct take a serious look at the Grand Union canal at Gallows Bridge, and then search the PoW, at least this would be making progress.
Lawful process is everything. Fortunately we do not live in a police state, to explain:

1. For the PoW to be searched one of three things would be required

a) Someone who has been identified as a suspect in the disappearance of SJL would need to be arrested on suspicion of abduction or similar. From this arrest there are various search powers that could come into play but only places where the person was arrested, where they were immediately prior to their arrest and with an Inspectors authority any place that the arrested person occupies of controls. There would need to be 'reasonable suspicion that the offence was committed (there definitely is) and grounds to suspect the person of abduction of SJL....not a fishing trip, proper grounds for suspicion as in proper evidence....not a hunch!

You may point out that the relief landlord and his then wife no longer work at the pub, in which case b) would be required and would also apply if no arrest had been made.

b) Application would need to be made to a Magistrate for a warrant of search and seizure. Once again the grounds for the request would need to be compelling as to what evidence there is to reasonably suspect SJL is there, particularly if it involves interfering with the structure of the building. The requesting officer has to swear on oath and the Magistrate will rightly want to know exactly what evidence there is and that other matters have been considered, such as the impact on the local community, public safety (foundations, walls), the pub business, access and egress on the roads immediately adjacent, local authority surveyors etc etc. I've sworn warrants out and I got a real grilling before the Magistrate signed the warrant and I was just bashing someone's front door down to give them an early morning alarm call!

c) The police can approach the the brewery that owns the premises or the owner landlord and seek voluntary permission to search. This is entirely voluntary and the brewery could say stop, get out at any time. Of course liaison with the current landlord and occupants would be a reasonable expectation. No doubt the police would need to pay for all the damage, loss to business, ensure safety, surveyors, traffic management outside etc.....I doubt the brewery/owner would be willing to foot the bill.

So you see it is just not a case of the police saying.....ok we'll go and have a look. There obviously is not sufficient evidence that supports the assertion by DV that SJL is in the PoW, otherwise the size 10's would have been banging on the door ages ago.

I strongly suspect that the position lies in the fact that DV is not privy to the majority of the evidence, which clearly demonstrates that JC is the only suspect and that all the evidence points towards him, but not of SC disposing of SJL at the PoW!

This notion that police can just go and do what they want is not the case, unless they are happy to act unlawfully and we know they are playing catchup in the integrity stakes. They have to meet strict criteria of PACE 1984 in terms of their search powers and showing that they genuinely have reasonable grounds.....no fishing trips to see what they can catch if they use a big net wherever, based on their gut feeling.

This aint the Wild West :cool:
 
  • #1,392
Lawful process is everything. Fortunately we do not live in a police state, to explain:

1. For the PoW to be searched one of three things would be required

a) Someone who has been identified as a suspect in the disappearance of SJL would need to be arrested on suspicion of abduction or similar. From this arrest there are various search powers that could come into play but only places where the person was arrested, where they were immediately prior to their arrest and with an Inspectors authority any place that the arrested person occupies of controls. There would need to be 'reasonable suspicion that the offence was committed (there definitely is) and grounds to suspect the person of abduction of SJL....not a fishing trip, proper grounds for suspicion as in proper evidence....not a hunch!

You may point out that the relief landlord and his then wife no longer work at the pub, in which case b) would be required and would also apply if no arrest had been made.

b) Application would need to be made to a Magistrate for a warrant of search and seizure. Once again the grounds for the request would need to be compelling as to what evidence there is to reasonably suspect SJL is there, particularly if it involves interfering with the structure of the building. The requesting officer has to swear on oath and the Magistrate will rightly want to know exactly what evidence there is and that other matters have been considered, such as the impact on the local community, public safety (foundations, walls), the pub business, access and egress on the roads immediately adjacent, local authority surveyors etc etc. I've sworn warrants out and I got a real grilling before the Magistrate signed the warrant and I was just bashing someone's front door down to give them an early morning alarm call!

c) The police can approach the the brewery that owns the premises or the owner landlord and seek voluntary permission to search. This is entirely voluntary and the brewery could say stop, get out at any time. Of course liaison with the current landlord and occupants would be a reasonable expectation. No doubt the police would need to pay for all the damage, loss to business, ensure safety, surveyors, traffic management outside etc.....I doubt the brewery/owner would be willing to foot the bill.

So you see it is just not a case of the police saying.....ok we'll go and have a look. There obviously is not sufficient evidence that supports the assertion by DV that SJL is in the PoW, otherwise the size 10's would have been banging on the door ages ago.

I strongly suspect that the position lies in the fact that DV is not privy to the majority of the evidence, which clearly demonstrates that JC is the only suspect and that all the evidence points towards him, but not of SC disposing of SJL at the PoW!

This notion that police can just go and do what they want is not the case, unless they are happy to act unlawfully and we know they are playing catchup in the integrity stakes. They have to meet strict criteria of PACE 1984 in terms of their search powers and showing that they genuinely have reasonable grounds.....no fishing trips to see what they can catch if they use a big net wherever, based on their gut feeling.

This aint the Wild West :cool:
JC is clumsy criminal and I don't believe he killed SJL without leaving evidence somewhere.
 
  • #1,393
The second investigation threw so much doubt on how the first investigation was carried out, things not documented correctly some things not acted on. If things were not as we have been led to believe then what is correct?

Its unfortunate there isnt' a Cold Case team asigned to the case I have found access to them in the past most helpful.
Yes, it seems as though there were many mistakes in the early stages. I am confident that would not happen now. The best and brightest, not necessary the longest in service are identified and trained to a high standard together with the best detectives, analysts, SOCO's, profilers and other specialist internal and external support.

There is still an appointed DI or DS on a Specialist Casework Team to deal with any further information and progress it, as necessary.

These cases are also reviewed periodically too, they are not forgotten about.
 
  • #1,394
JC is clumsy criminal and I don't believe he killed SJL without leaving evidence somewhere.
Exceptionally clumsy but given the time he got lucky on may occasions. I suspect his terrifying demeanour and extreme physical and verbal aggression petrified many victims so they unable to fight back, provide effective recall or even want to get the police involved.

Offenders these days are far more forensically aware but only the most accomplished can evade detection where serious crime is concerned. JC would soon be identified today and the technological and forensic techniques and evidence would be substantial.
 
  • #1,395
Hi all, new to this.
Having spent time reading through much of this thread, I have noted that a number of Websleuthers have thought the actions of MG ( Suzy Lamplugh's boss ) peculiar on the day of her disappearance.
In addition, it seems remarkable that only now, more than 35 years later, office junior JC should say that the police were wrong to say that Suzy Lamplugh's car was parked in Whittingstall Road prior to her disappearance. Apparently, JC now says that it was parked in Radipole Road. I feel that it is vital to know for sure where the car was parked because if it was parked somewhere quiet largely out of the public eye, this may have afforded the opportunity for Suzy to be abducted at this point.
I feel it is essential that everyone in the office should come forward to fully account for their actions that day, and as Cluesleuth mentioned earlier, I am sure that they would all be very welcomed by contributers to this website if they would do so here.
One final thing, has it been fully ascertained that the Mr Kipper diary entry was definitely made by Suzy and not by someone else? Looking at it, I am not convinced that the handwriting style of it, though fairly similar, matches up with the Joanna Wright entry lower down the page. And, while not wanting to come across as sexist, I would say that the handwriting style of the Mr Kipper entry looks more typical of a male than a female.
 
  • #1,396
Yes, it seems as though there were many mistakes in the early stages. I am confident that would not happen now. The best and brightest, not necessary the longest in service are identified and trained to a high standard together with the best detectives, analysts, SOCO's, profilers and other specialist internal and external support.

There is still an appointed DI or DS on a Specialist Casework Team to deal with any further information and progress it, as necessary.

These cases are also reviewed periodically too, they are not forgotten about.

Can I ask why you think the police have not been able to formally charge John Cannan he was interviewed in 1999 and named as a suspect in 2002 thats 20 years ago with detectives analysts, profilers and up to date forensics of the calibre you describe at their disposal why have they still not been able to obtain the evidence to prove without doubt that he is responsible for the murder of SJL?

I did contact the Met unfortunately I received a reply saying they only support academic or grant funded study enquiries.
I have challenged this but to date have not received a reply.
 
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  • #1,397
Out of clarity, could the new JC please be differentiated here please from JC?

Asking JC to join websleuths when he's on his deathbed?! See what I mean ..... Thank you ...
 
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  • #1,398

Do any of our new contributors have any opinions on the above press report?

Although it's from the Sun 'newspaper', it does detail a local female shop worker being subjected to persistant and unwanted attention from an individual. The lady in qestion also claims that individual resembled JC? .....
 
  • #1,399
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A recently broadcast, national tv brief discussion on the case ....
 
  • #1,400
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A recently broadcast, national tv brief discussion on the case ....

Note the the comment from the Prison and Public Law Solicitor Dean Kingham at 8.41 into video

he goes on to say more recently evidence has been established to point away from his guilt and identifying new lines of enquiry

Its all interesting stuff
MOO
 
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