UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #2

[Cluesleuth]

All the card index data was transferred to a computer based system at the outset of the 2000 review.

The transfer was done manually so human error has to be factored in.

 

[shadwell]

The MJ was of a man only I think. The jogger sighting came in fourteen years later, IIRC.

Yes the jogger sighting was in 2000, but MJ saw a young woman waiting outside 123, then a suntanned man aged 40-50 carrying a briefcase approach her (AS P76 and the Real Crime doc).

 

[Whitehall 1212]

The transfer was done manually so human error as to be factored in.

Agreed......then again even today HOLMES2 relies on the manual data sets entered by HOLMES data inputters identifying data from statements, intelligence reports, CCTV etc.

Human error will always be in the mix

 

[WestLondoner]

Yes the jogger sighting was in 2000, but MJ saw a young woman waiting outside 123, then a suntanned man aged 40-50 carrying a briefcase approach her (AS P76 and the Real Crime doc).

Not sure MJ's input helps much. The young woman outside 123 would most likely be WJ, and the suntanned man of 40 to 50 isn't HR's Mr Kipper of 25 to 30. He also can't have been JC because JC, a recent ex-con, would not have had a suntan.

 

[Terryb808]

This is the problem I have - the info from the stocktaker and ZH in the DV book both suggest that it was open. The stocktaker makes the point that they would go in early so as to be finished before twelve for the pub to open as normal at lunchtime - otherwise the brewery/pubco is losing revenue.

I have strong doubts that she went to Shorrolds Road, a large part due to the fact I am far from convinced that it was her who made the relevant diary entry as I think that there is a handwriting style discrepancy between that entry and the one lower down the page, the fact that apparently there was no regular estate agency card written out for this appointment and the seemingly baffling choice of client name if Suzy was trying to cover an against-the-rules absence from the office.

FWIW the handwriting on the diary page is by the same person. It looks like the Mr Kipper appointment & the 6.00pm appointments were written at the same time.
However, the other notes on the page were written at a different time.
This is a minor point, but has implications if correct, so an expert’s opinion would be welcome.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

FWIW the handwriting on the diary page is by the same person. It looks like the Mr Kipper appointment & the 6.00pm appointments were written at the same time.
However, the other notes on the page were written at a different time.
This is a minor point, but has implications if correct, so an expert’s opinion would be welcome.

I know this is old ground (I’m mostly a lurker on this thread) but…

what do people mostly think / conclude about the name itself ‘Mr Kipper’?

To me, it’s still very odd that SJL uses that word / name when having had a school friend who was teased with that. It’s hardly the sort of word / name that rolls into one’s mind when making an excuse to dip out of work. IMO maybe it could be a bigger clue than we realise and I don’t mean that directed to that person with the nickname but that it’s rather odd in its own right.

 

[Terryb808]

I know this is old ground (I’m mostly a lurker on this thread) but…

what do people mostly think / conclude about the name itself ‘Mr Kipper’?

To me, it’s still very odd that SJL uses that word / name when having had a school friend who was teased with that. It’s hardly the sort of word / name that rolls into one’s mind when making an excuse to dip out of work. IMO maybe it could be a bigger clue than we realise and I don’t mean that directed to that person with the nickname but that it’s rather odd in its own right.

Agreed it’s a very odd name to use, suggests that (maybe) she was making it obvious that she was going out on a personal errand.
There’s absolutely no evidence to support this, but my methods with my team was “as long as you delivered the goods, you can take the odd hour if you needed to”.
It was never officially supported, however, you as a manager had the power to use your own judgment.
My take on this is that SJL had an appointment she wanted to keep, the 6.00pm viewing came in and she then added the Mr Kipper to the diary so she could go out lunchtime.

 

[Pinkizzy]

I know this is old ground (I’m mostly a lurker on this thread) but…

what do people mostly think / conclude about the name itself ‘Mr Kipper’?

To me, it’s still very odd that SJL uses that word / name when having had a school friend who was teased with that. It’s hardly the sort of word / name that rolls into one’s mind when making an excuse to dip out of work. IMO maybe it could be a bigger clue than we realise and I don’t mean that directed to that person with the nickname but that it’s rather odd in its own right.

K i P p e r

 

[Pinkizzy]

Dont you think it is odd for this couple to turn up at these locations? If this couple was trying to find her, why would SJL go to 123 Stevenage Rd?

 

[Cluesleuth]

We know she was trying to sell her property was it on the market with Sturgis? or was she advertising it privately.
Perhaps she was working the diary to fit in a private viewing on her own property.
MOO

 

[Cluesleuth]

Dont you think it is odd for this couple to turn up at these locations? If this couple was trying to find her, why would SJL go to 123 Stevenage Rd?

Perhaps she didnt go to to Stevenage road at all, perhaps her car just did

 

[Cluesleuth]

I know this is old ground (I’m mostly a lurker on this thread) but…

what do people mostly think / conclude about the name itself ‘Mr Kipper’?

To me, it’s still very odd that SJL uses that word / name when having had a school friend who was teased with that. It’s hardly the sort of word / name that rolls into one’s mind when making an excuse to dip out of work. IMO maybe it could be a bigger clue than we realise and I don’t mean that directed to that person with the nickname but that it’s rather odd in its own right.

If you check out the police incident room white board (photo posted a few pages back) you will notice KIPPER/SKIPPER where someone pointed out she knew a guy that worked at the bbc in Bristol whose name was Skipper apparrently he was eliminated from enquiry.
It would be interesting to know why Skipper came to be on the board in the first place and if it was in relation to LS or had appeared somewhere else that would make it relevant.

SJL did have a fondness for giving people nicknames, and 3 entries on the diary page could have related to one person who admitted he had lived in Wardo, lived in Shorrolds at the time of her disappearance and was nicknamed KIPPER at school. DH.

MOO

 

[Whitehall 1212]

SJL did have a fondness for giving people nicknames

Where is the evidence for this please?

 

[Cluesleuth]

Dont you think it is odd for this couple to turn up at these locations? If this couple was trying to find her, why would SJL go to 123 Stevenage Rd?

SJL worked with many property agents. So it might explain couples at both locations.
She would take a property on and invite property agents round for a showing and then those agents would offer it to their private clients.
BW was I understand also a property agent and met with SJL once a week..
Basically property agents/finders look for property for clients that are too busy to look themselves. If the property agent/finders client purchases the property the agent/finder takes a share of the commission from the listing agent.

When she said to JC that she was going to do a quick showing it made me think she was going to show the property to a property finder.

1. Was SJL meeting a property finder Mr Kipper?
2. Were the couples a property agent/finder and their client?

It would depend on the agreement the listing agent and the agent had with each other who did the viewing.
Some agents work on introduction only basis that way they will still get their cut if client decides not to buy that particular property but goes on to purchase another property on the listing agents books so they are happy for the listing agent to do the viewing.
The other option is that the property finder does the viewing this would need them to have access to a key.

MOO

 

[Cluesleuth]

Where is the evidence for this please?

In the AS book.

Have you read it?

 

[Whitehall 1212]

In the AS book.

Have you read it?

No....it's not available within my library network. I checked the other day.

What I would say though is unless AS knew SJL personally, and she told him so, then it is hearsay and hence not reliable.

If friends/family told AS so, after SJL went missing, then it may carry some weight, but only if they told him independently of each other, without prompting or as a response to leading questions.

This I fear is how we are fed so much 'information' that is stated as fact, when it is just not the case and therefore it cannot be relied on in any way to advance an investigation.

I think it is highly unlikely, given the passage of time, that anyone is going to reveal key evidence that will help to solve this tragic case. I cannot begin to imagine the lifelong anguish when a loved family member/friend disappears without trace.

The greatest hope is that a body is found and identified by DNA/dental records as Suzy. This may not solve the case, but at least she can be brought home and laid to rest properly.

 

[Cluesleuth]

No....it's not available within my library network. I checked the other day.

What I would say though is unless AS knew SJL personally, and she told him so, then it is hearsay and hence not reliable.

If friends/family told AS so, after SJL went missing, then it may carry some weight, but only if they told him independently of each other, without prompting or as a response to leading questions.

This I fear is how we are fed so much 'information' that is stated as fact, when it is just not the case and therefore it cannot be relied on in any way to advance an investigation.

I think it is highly unlikely, given the passage of time, that anyone is going to reveal key evidence that will help to solve this tragic case. I cannot begin to imagine the lifelong anguish when a loved family member/friend disappears without trace.

The greatest hope is that a body is found and identified by DNA/dental records as Suzy. This may not solve the case, but at least she can be brought home and laid to rest properly.

Im quite surprised you have not read the AS book its a must read for anyone interested in the SJL case and well worth the money

But from memory Splodge, and Biffo come to mind.

 

[RichardKimble]

Im quite surprised you have not read the AS book its a must read for anyone interested in the SJL case and well worth the money

But from memory Splodge, and Biffo come to mind.

Sadly its not available on Kindle unlimited, does it vary much from DV's book ?

 

[RichardKimble]

No....it's not available within my library network. I checked the other day.

What I would say though is unless AS knew SJL personally, and she told him so, then it is hearsay and hence not reliable.

If friends/family told AS so, after SJL went missing, then it may carry some weight, but only if they told him independently of each other, without prompting or as a response to leading questions.

This I fear is how we are fed so much 'information' that is stated as fact, when it is just not the case and therefore it cannot be relied on in any way to advance an investigation.

I think it is highly unlikely, given the passage of time, that anyone is going to reveal key evidence that will help to solve this tragic case. I cannot begin to imagine the lifelong anguish when a loved family member/friend disappears without trace.

The greatest hope is that a body is found and identified by DNA/dental records as Suzy. This may not solve the case, but at least she can be brought home and laid to rest properly.

Bolded bit, given the police conducted digs around likely places (to them at least) linked to JC without so much as a trace of Suzi would it not make sense to at least search the voids under the POW pub .

Is this the last place she was actually seen alive at ?

 

[RichardKimble]

DBM