UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #2

[TimFisher1965]

Where has it been confirmed she went out Sunday night to make a phone call?

her day was awfully long so she would of had a phone in her flat so I don’t see why she would leave home to make a phone call. also why would she take a bag to do this?

All the accounts suggested she had possibly already dumped AL or was about to (AS book which was written very close to the events) she met him Friday night but avoided him the rest of the weekend including blanking him at the beach trip on Sunday July 27th coming home without him which seems odd as he was just back from holiday. Many people think she used the phone box to dump him not wishing to to be overheard by her parents at their place or in her own flat by her flatmate so as the phone box was on her way home and private this seems very plausible. Also may account for her muddled upset mind and why she perhaps mislaid her things near the table (looking for change?) which were found minutes later by CV. AL says he spoke to SL on the phone around 10.15pm but does not remember who called who which suggests strongly SL rang him as if this was a dumping phone call he WOULD remember that fact surely? also her parents and Nick Bryant do not recall this call happening so the phone box at POW is in my mind extremely likely.

 

[TimFisher1965]

On the button, I like the Mayor idea, he’s managed what many have tried to do in the past, so maybe he couple move the Met on this one.
I know who now owns the PoW and after it was acquired all the directors changed. They are now Londoners, I’m guessing like you they won’t cooperate with anyone but the Met.
The PoW landlord (who was helpful with DV) stayed on after the pub changed hands. I’m guessing he’ll not be so accommodating this time around.
Another option would be to get Network Rail onboard, this would allow the land to the rear to be searched, IMO this area is a more likely place for SJL than the PoW cellar.

DV seems to say very strongly in the cellar not elsewhere, people keep saying this area but to dig this up and move the body would be very risky at summer with long days, how and when? surely hide her well in the cellar as DV suggests?

 

[TimFisher1965]

There've been a couple of documentaries in the last year that have done exactly that. They start from the premise that the police know it was JC. They they trot out the "sightings" remembered 14 years later. Then they bring up the claims that JC was known as Mr Kipper in prison because he liked kippers / wore a kipper tie (in jail apparently) / like to have a kip / liked to be clever and "kipper" is "kidnapper" with the "dna" removed. Why he'd use his prison nickname as an anonymous alias, or that he was called this after the fact because the press thought he was Mr Kipper, is never discussed. Then they mention the black BMW that HR admitted he never saw and that JC didn't acquire till 1987. Then they mention the man from Bristol SJL was seeing in 1984 (while JC was in prison) who was obviously JC because he was from Bristol (he was from the Midlands and moved to Bristol in 1987). A recent one used a "forensic geographer" to "prove" that from Fulham, JC headed straight to the M4, which was handy for Fulham and Bristol. Presumably he drove slowly and took a year to get there, so that by the time he arrived in Bristol, he was living there.

What none of them ever does is ask the obvious question: why, if JC did it, can't police can't prove it or even persuade the CPS? The equally obvious answer - because there's no evidence, because he didn't do it - never occurs.

Incidentally, re "James Galway", the bearded bloke who got into a cab around the corner from where the car was found, said he'd seen a couple having "a right ruck", and never came forward to elaborate. That is a northern turn of phrase, is it not? And CV is a northerner? Do we know when that happened? If my estimated timeline is correct, I'd say about 4pm?

I think (need to check) that this taxi pick up was around 2.30-2.45pm? anyone?

 

[WestLondoner]

DV seems to say very strongly in the cellar not elsewhere, people keep saying this area but to dig this up and move the body would be very risky at summer with long days, how and when? surely hide her well in the cellar as DV suggests?

The rationale for the embankment I think is partly inferential - DV describes a body dumped on a railway embankment at the beginning of his book. Some have read this as a hint, given the PoW backs onto one. The embankment would be a good hiding place because it would be secured for obvious reasons, so could go undisturbed for years on end, whereas DV describes that underfloor area as accessible and used by pest controllers.

The possibility therefore is that CV placed SJL under the floor pro tem, but then moved her to the better hiding place, perhaps as soon as the same night. He would have to move quickly, because he only had the run of the place for 2 weeks and when the missus and the customers weren't around.

Another advantage is that if she were ever found under the PoW, then CV is bang to rights, but if she's on the railway embankment, it remains to be proved who put her there.

 

[Jackster]

All the accounts suggested she had possibly already dumped AL or was about to (AS book which was written very close to the events) she met him Friday night but avoided him the rest of the weekend including blanking him at the beach trip on Sunday July 27th coming home without him which seems odd as he was just back from holiday. Many people think she used the phone box to dump him not wishing to to be overheard by her parents at their place or in her own flat by her flatmate so as the phone box was on her way home and private this seems very plausible. Also may account for her muddled upset mind and why she perhaps mislaid her things near the table (looking for change?) which were found minutes later by CV. AL says he spoke to SL on the phone around 10.15pm but does not remember who called who which suggests strongly SL rang him as if this was a dumping phone call he WOULD remember that fact surely? also her parents and Nick Bryant do not recall this call happening so the phone box at POW is in my mind extremely likely.

The sad irony about this case is if SJL hadn’t put false entry in diary to cover up being out of office possibly the met would have gone down another path to solving this case instead of wrongly pushing JC and Mr Kipper theory MOO

 

[Terryb808]

DV seems to say very strongly in the cellar not elsewhere, people keep saying this area but to dig this up and move the body would be very risky at summer with long days, how and when? surely hide her well in the cellar as DV suggests?

On the Dec 21 YouTube interview I asked DV if he felt that with all the current interest that SJL’s location was at risk of being contaminated by a member of the public,
His answer was a resounding no. From this I took it that the PoW was only a temporary hiding place.

 

[Terryb808]

The rationale for the embankment I think is partly inferential - DV describes a body dumped on a railway embankment at the beginning of his book. Some have read this as a hint, given the PoW backs onto one. The embankment would be a good hiding place because it would be secured for obvious reasons, so could go undisturbed for years on end, whereas DV describes that underfloor area as accessible and used by pest controllers.

The possibility therefore is that CV placed SJL under the floor pro tem, but then moved her to the better hiding place, perhaps as soon as the same night. He would have to move quickly, because he only had the run of the place for 2 weeks and when the missus and the customers weren't around.

Another advantage is that if she were ever found under the PoW, then CV is bang to rights, but if she's on the railway embankment, it remains to be proved who put her there.

What makes the CV did it more compelling is his change of story, his ex partners almost panic when approached by DV for an interview and the fact that the PoW cellar man was also evasion and wouldn’t go anywhere near DV.
Then there the James Galway man and the “right ruck”, who never came forward.
I also understand that CV disappeared from social media as soon as the DV investigation got to him.
Okay, coincidence, but when does coincidence turn to a need for a serious look.
As you say the embankment keeps it away from CV and the PoW, and you then need to prove how she got there.
Conserving the crime scene is really important if you want any chance of proving guilt.

 

[TimFisher1965]

Interesting poi

On the Dec 21 YouTube interview I asked DV if he felt that with all the current interest that SJL’s location was at risk of being contaminated by a member of the public,
His answer was a resounding no. From this I took it that the PoW was only a temporary hiding place.

Interesting point, and yes a very good point. I guess if I had done it I would not want to leave the body there so the question is how and when would I move the body to the waste ground and not be seen and could I do this on my own? Perhaps the cover up is the stuff Karen knows about?

 

[TimFisher1965]

On the Dec 21 YouTube interview I asked DV if he felt that with all the current interest that SJL’s location was at risk of being contaminated by a member of the public,
His answer was a resounding no. From this I took it that the PoW was only a temporary hiding place.

yep I saw that, my only criticism is that I feel DV needs to address BW sighting, the 3k commission and what it means, the couple who we think may be (cannot be named) I have had a reply from them they are not unreachable. The silence from her is weird to say the least does it mean they know something or worse or is it as simple as no wanting to be associated with the case? If the tactic was to be forgotten over the years that has not worked but how would the silence now be explained?

 

[Jackster]

Interesting poi



Interesting point, and yes a very good point. I guess if I had done it I would not want to leave the body there so the question is how and when would I move the body to the waste ground and not be seen and could I do this on my own? Perhaps the cover up is the stuff Karen knows about?

Karen def knows more than she is saying, is she scared of him or did he tell her she would never be involved (even if she was ) which is why CV got so angry at DV going to see her

 

[WestLondoner]

Karen def knows more than she is saying, is she scared of him or did he tell her she would never be involved (even if she was ) which is why CV got so angry at DV going to see her

Possible but if so very unwise by CV because how can he assure her of any such thing?

 

[Terryb808]

Some thoughts on SJL - Based on Conjecture

Firstly everything I've outlined below comes from AS or DV's books, plus this thread & its thread 1. Before thread 1 we had another, however, for some reason this got zapped and all was lost, pity because it has some very interesting contributions.

So Her Goes

I thought I'd just add to some of the excellent posts on this thread, given we have very few actual factual evidence as to what happened to SJL on Monday 28th July 1986 I've named this conjecture.
Friday 25th July 1986
According to the AS book SJL & AL had a meal at Mossop's restaurant and then a drink in the PoW, however, AL has since (to DV) said that they never (he never) went to the PoW. I believe this to be true based on subsequent events that occurred of the weekend 25th / 26th July and it goes some way to explaining AL's strange reaction to the DV interview.
IMO SJL had decided in the two weeks AL had been away on vacation to end the relationship and took the Friday evening meal to drop this (most likely) bombshell to AL. Theres no way AL would be in the mood for a drink in the PoW, firstly because he'd just been dumped and secondly, he disliked the pub. So I guess the couple pasted at this point, maybe they had a few hash words, maybe not.
Saturday 26th July 1986
SJL went to work in the morning, hairdressers in the afternoon and to a party in the evening, one thing that would help to know is "did SJL put work appointments in her personal diary", this would help establish or rule out the suggestion that the mythical Mr Kipper called into office Sturgiss on Saturday morning and arranged the 37 SR appointment. If she kept a brief note of work appointments in this diary, then the Mr Kipper 37 SR one should be in it.
I accept that AS said that SJL lost her things on Friday evening, but (and including AL's statement to DV) theres not evidence that SJL went to the PoW on Friday after parting from AL and she never mentioned the loss of her things until Monday morning.
SJL went to the party without AL, another reason to believe she dumped him on the Friday evening, by all accounts she had a good time, and had no regrets about her decision to drop AL
Sunday 27th July 1986
Off to the coast for some wind surfing, again without AL, although he did turn up later on his own, by all accounts the pair had little or no contact, SJL left without him and went to her mothers on her way home. This again tends to indicate that SJL & AL's relationship was over, I think this bit of conjecture is correct.
We have some blank time in the SJL timeline, we know she left her mothers during the evening, but not what time exactly and where she went after this. But AL confirms that he & SJL talked on the phone at approx 10.15pm Sunday evening, given the events of this weekend its not unreasonable to assume (as others have suggested) that SJL didn't want either her mother or NB to overhear the conversation.
So as the PoW had a public phone box outside she stopped and made this AL call from there, again its not unreasonable to assume that AL would be more than a little upset, he's been dumped and ignored over the weekend and would most like make a few home truths to SJL.
At this point I thinks SJL was understandably upset and left leaving her chequebook, diary & postcard behind on the bench outside the PoW. This fits with CV's account of when & where he found them as he would have been collecting glasses etc.
Monday 28th July 1986
SJL went to work as normal, but according to AS she was preoccupied with the loss of her things and called the bank to cancel her chequebook, apart from this concern AS outlined she was in a particularly good mood and this is where the £3k commission comes into play.
During the morning it's established that the temporary landlord at the PoW has her things and it's generally suggested she called or was called by someone at the PoW who confirmed they had her things. Some important factors come into play now:

• Who did she speak to just before she left the office, CV or Mrs CV?
  • I think it was CV.
• The Sturgiss office was short staffed and her immediate boss, plus his boss where around and had gone to lunch, this is the most likely reason that SJL invented the Mr Kipper appointment at 37 SR, IMO that there is more evidence that this was a fictional event than a real one.
• According to DV she and a colleague had words over a possible sale, and again DV outlines that he had also gone to lunch, having lost this argument would make SJL more determined to do want she wanted and not be forced (because of office protocol to stay in at lunchtime.

SJL put the Mr Kipper 37 SR appointment in her desk diary to cover going out at lunchtime. and left the office sometime around 12.40pm, I don't believe anyone can be absolutely accurate on this time, it's a normal day, so why would you know to the minute what time SJHL actually left.
Apart from knowing that when she walked of the office, she went to Whittingstall Road to collect her car we have no idea what happened next, so using the timeline we have a couple of options.
IMO she had two things she wanted to do:

• Retrieve her lost things from the PoW.
• Collect the promised £3k commission.

Given this conjecture and the fact that she only took her keys and purse with her she planned a5 minute stop at the PoW and then on to collect her commission. I don't believe she actually made it to collect her commission, and that this commission was somewhat dubious in nature, this is why no one has come forward to explain its connection with SJL.
From this point on DV explains as well as he is allowed what happened and to some extent why, theres more circumstantial evidence to support this narrative than the Mets JC did it.

• It's what preoccupied SJL during the Monday morning.
• She didn't take the keys or particulars to 37 SR when she left the office.
• The diary content was obviously important to her (for reasons we don't know).
• CV would have been alone (or maybe Brendon the cellar man was there also) in the PoW.
• CV would have known about Fulham & Craven Cottage because the PoW was favoured by Fulham supports.
• Her car being abandoned here is a bit of a coincidence.
• James Galway Man & the taxi drivers "right ruck" account also fits.

DV Book POI
AL's rather strange outburst at his interview could be because he's was disappointed that DV was apparently (in his opinion not likely to find SJL, maybe he knows more than he is or has ever said.
DV was unable to interview the illusive Brendon the cellar man, why and is he connected to CV and SJL's disappearance?
The former Mrs CV's rather panic stricken response to DV's request for an interview, this was over the top and suggested that she feared something or someone?
CV's reaction to the fact that DV had approached his former partner for an interview.
Summary
I don't think JC had anything to do with SJL's disappearance and is being used as a reason to stop any chance of him gaining parole, also, its difficult to the Met to move focus away from JC when they've already said he's guilty , but we can't prove it.
If you take away the fictitious Mr Kipper and the 37 SR appointment there'd be no detective worth his salt that would not follow up on the PoW & CV, even AS in his book outlined he had an uneasy feeling about CV.
As I've said before this thread & its companion thread 1 has via all the contributors provided (IMO) all the answers and enough to justify the Met following what the Mets RR said in public to the press "the case is open & we'll leave no stone unturned", to me this is not a stone, its a almighty great bounder.

Come on the Met, take your medicine and turn this one over to see whats underneath.

 

[WestLondoner]

I like all that except to note that there's a receipt showing she had the highlights on Friday. It seems very unlikely to me that any Mr Kipper came into the office because he's them going to be ID'd later. If the idea was to abduct her, he's blown.

This £3000 commission I think probably also has a simple explanation. It was near the end of the month, and the end of the month is payday. Estate agents are paid on commission, so if a few sales had gone through with her name on them, she'd be due to get paid.

A mate of mine was an estate agent in 1990, and at the time they charged the seller 2% of which 15% went to the negotiator.

15% of 2% is 0.3%, so for SJL to be expecting commission of £3000, she'd have had to sell five or six properties at 37SR money of about £180 to £200k. As business was booming and the Fulham branch had four negotiators,and shifted 150 to 200 properties a year, it's entirely possible that SJL had had a good month and had indeed shifted £1 million total of properties. The amount is consistent and so is the timing. So when she said she was expecting commission of £3000, for my money she said this because it was pay week and she was simply referring to her pay from work.

 

[asyousay]

AL we don’t know if he is even telling the truth. His reaction in the book is suspicious and seems pretty strange.


If he had just been brutally dumped and she was cheating on him , people have been killed over less.


MOO

 

[Terryb808]

I like all that except to note that there's a receipt showing she had the highlights on Friday. It seems very unlikely to me that any Mr Kipper came into the office because he's them going to be ID'd later. If the idea was to abduct her, he's blown.

This £3000 commission I think probably also has a simple explanation. It was near the end of the month, and the end of the month is payday. Estate agents are paid on commission, so if a few sales had gone through with her name on them, she'd be due to get paid.

A mate of mine was an estate agent in 1990, and at the time they charged the seller 2% of which 15% went to the negotiator.

15% of 2% is 0.3%, so for SJL to be expecting commission of £3000, she'd have had to sell five or six properties at 37SR money of about £180 to £200k. As business was booming and the Fulham branch had four negotiators,and shifted 150 to 200 properties a year, it's entirely possible that SJL had had a good month and had indeed shifted £1 million total of properties. The amount is consistent and so is the timing. So when she said she was expecting commission of £3000, for my money she said this because it was pay week and she was simply referring to her pay from work.

I’ve had no dealings with the estate agency world, so I’ve learned another great bit of info and if we add this to what we know it gets rid of another red herring.

 

[Terryb808]

AL we don’t know if he is even telling the truth. His reaction in the book is suspicious and seems pretty strange.


If he had just been brutally dumped and she was cheating on him , people have been killed over less.


MOO

That was my original thought when I read DV’s book. However, he has a cast iron alibi which the police must have checked at the time.
Boyfriends & husbands are the first to come under suspicion.

 

[TimFisher1965]

I’ve had no dealings with the estate agency world, so I’ve learned another great bit of info and if we add this to what we know it gets rid of another red herring.

that is exactly what I was thinking

 

[TimFisher1965]

That was my original thought when I read DV’s book. However, he has a cast iron alibi which the police must have checked at the time.
Boyfriends & husbands are the first to come under suspicion.

if we make the educated assumption that SL dumped AL on the Friday this could explain quite a lot. Her cold shoulder towards AL on the Sunday which may have caused her to ring him to either reiterate the relationship was over or to ask why he turned up on Sunday despite it being over? Perhaps she wanted to put it to rest and anticipated a “difficult” conversation hence the use of a public phone box so nobody could overhear. The call may have been many things, an angry exchange? An accusation of infidelity on her part who knows but this call may have been SL putting a line under it and her head may have been muddled hence the leaving behind of her stuff found minutes later by CV. Remember this was the night before so perhaps nobody knew for sure they were no longer a couple except perhaps Sarah who drove her to the party and back from windsurfing on the Sunday (an interview with her would be very revealing I think) so to the world especially DL he was still the boyfriend so maybe he played the part as saying they broke up would make him look guilty and perhaps he felt unable to come clean about this point? It certainly was advantageous to DL to have a respectable boyfriend to aid her desired persona of SL?

SL was in a good mood maybe this was because she moved on from AL, she was due a £3k commission and her diary had turned up. There us the rumour about her new rich man in Belgravia (name known to some of us) so perhaps these all add up to good mood?

this of course is speculation on my part but nailing down these facts particularly the actions of AL would help clarify a lot of points.

it doesn’t help because what he has said in documentaries and to DV contradict each other

 

[Terryb808]

if we make the educated assumption that SL dumped AL on the Friday this could explain quite a lot. Her cold shoulder towards AL on the Sunday which may have caused her to ring him to either reiterate the relationship was over or to ask why he turned up on Sunday despite it being over? Perhaps she wanted to put it to rest and anticipated a “difficult” conversation hence the use of a public phone box so nobody could overhear. The call may have been many things, an angry exchange? An accusation of infidelity on her part who knows but this call may have been SL putting a line under it and her head may have been muddled hence the leaving behind of her stuff found minutes later by CV. Remember this was the night before so perhaps nobody knew for sure they were no longer a couple except perhaps Sarah who drove her to the party and back from windsurfing on the Sunday (an interview with her would be very revealing I think) so to the world especially DL he was still the boyfriend so maybe he played the part as saying they broke up would make him look guilty and perhaps he felt unable to come clean about this point? It certainly was advantageous to DL to have a respectable boyfriend to aid her desired persona of SL?

SL was in a good mood maybe this was because she moved on from AL, she was due a £3k commission and her diary had turned up. There us the rumour about her new rich man in Belgravia (name known to some of us) so perhaps these all add up to good mood?

this of course is speculation on my part but nailing down these facts particularly the actions of AL would help clarify a lot of points.

it doesn’t help because what he has said in documentaries and to DV contradict each other

I agree with all the above, we have to make assumptions, it’s the only way forward and as long as they are based on sound logic can only help.
For me this and WestLondoners explanation of how the estate agents business worked back then has cleared up the £3k.
One thing I read in the AS book that just stuck in my head for no logical reason was a comment that a clairvoyant made “SJL had finally found a man that satisfied her”.
Now I know clairvoyants need to be treated with a pinch of salt, but they usually get things they say from others more closely linked to the subject.
I think this stayed with me because she had just dumped AL and seemed happy to move on.
So if this was the case, who was this very special man?

 

[asyousay]

AL doesn’t admit to be dumped that weekend?