UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #2

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  • #1,701
What you describe is pretty much how it worked everywhere. A mate of mine worked in a West London estate agency (Faron Sutaria) for three years from about 89. He'd worked at a bank counter but got bored and wanted to try something else.

It was an incredibly throat-cutting environment. He had no office mates, just duplicitous rivals. There was one set of keys to each property and you had to book them and sign them out via the manager, who watched you sign them out and back in. This was to ensure that two agents, who were at all times in competition with each other, couldn't turn up at the same property at the same time with rival buyers. It also made it harder for a rival to 'lose' or hog a set of keys to thwart bookings by other agents.

Where there were multiple bids for a property, they all had to be shown to the vendor, but the manager decided which was pushed as the agency's 'recommended' bid. Usually, not always, this was the highest bid, but sometimes if the highest bidder was a known flake, the manager would pick a lower one and warn the vendor off.

DV describes this process happening on SJL's office that morning.

If your buyer wasn't advanced as the 'best' to the vendor, you could try to get him / her to gazump the buyer who had been recommended by upping the bid above the others.

I was aware of the practice of gazumping in 1989 but wasn't aware, until my mate told me, that if you were gazumped on a property, that had almost certainly been organised by another employee of the same agency.

Whoever brought the buyer who exchanged on the property got 15% of the agency's commission, which at the time was either 2 or 2.25%. The agency kept the rest. Everyone else got nil. If you had a buyer bidding £130,000 for a property and it went to your colleague's client bidding £132,000 for it, your colleague would get paid £396 for that sale. You would get zilch. If you sold one such property a week, which was a typical target, you'd make about £20,000 a year on top of your basic. This at the time was by design not enough to live on - so you had to sell.

My buddy lasted about three years and packed it in because it was so epically vicious. He gave me two interesting pieces of advice when next I sold. One was never do joint agency because then neither agency will bother doing viewings in case the place is about to be offered on via the other one - waste of time. The other was don't list with an agency who's too far away. If the agency's in Notting Hill they'll never show anyone your flat in e.g. Little Venice; it's too far and they'll have no others to show you nearby to make best use of the time out of the office.

SJL mentioned at the party she went to on the Saturday that she was expecting a £3,000 commission. This sounds like she was in line for her share of property sales totalling about a million pounds, presumably payable at month-end that Thursday.
I agree .. apologises my latest post and this one crossed I got sidetracked halfway thru writing mine (I had to take a call) having hit post I have now read yours which says much the same.:)
 
  • #1,702
I agree .. apologises my latest post and this one crossed I got sidetracked halfway thru writing mine (I had to take a call) having hit post I have now read yours which says much the same.:)
Your speculations as to what life was like in a 1980s estate agency are indeed spot on :)

That agency may have been particularly cut-throat because there was a nasty house price slump on in 89-92, but it gives a flavour.

If SJL had a buyer who'd been relegated in favour of a colleague's buyer, it's probably fair to say that she wouldn't have been looking for favours to do said colleague that lunchtime.

Remuneration structure appears not to have changed much:

...generally the commission you’ll take home is based on a percentage of the price of the property you sell, and the percentage of that sale that your office makes.
For example, if a property is sold for £200,000, and your office collects 2% of the sale, then the company you work for will make £4,000. Of that 2% fee, you might then be entitled to 10% personal commission, meaning you would earn £400 in commission.

SJL's £3,000 commission is often discussed as pointing to some sort of nefarious off-books dealing, but it is wholly explicable as part of her ordinary comp I would say.
 
  • #1,703
I wonder when SJL's flat was sold
 
  • #1,704
Your speculations as to what life was like in a 1980s estate agency are indeed spot on :)

That agency may have been particularly cut-throat because there was a nasty house price slump on in 89-92, but it gives a flavour.

If SJL had a buyer who'd been relegated in favour of a colleague's buyer, it's probably fair to say that she wouldn't have been looking for favours to do said colleague that lunchtime.

Remuneration structure appears not to have changed much:

...generally the commission you’ll take home is based on a percentage of the price of the property you sell, and the percentage of that sale that your office makes.
For example, if a property is sold for £200,000, and your office collects 2% of the sale, then the company you work for will make £4,000. Of that 2% fee, you might then be entitled to 10% personal commission, meaning you would earn £400 in commission.

SJL's £3,000 commission is often discussed as pointing to some sort of nefarious off-books dealing, but it is wholly explicable as part of her ordinary comp I would say.

Remind me were DH and PD builders I know PH was on Sturgis mailing list
 
  • #1,705
Remind me were DH and PD builders I know PH was on Sturgis mailing list
DH was a carpenter - though perhaps only nominally. Not sure who else you’re referring to there.
 
  • #1,706
DH was a carpenter - though perhaps only nominally. Not sure who else you’re referring to there.
Sorry got second person initials wrong so prob confused you

Im thinking of the brothers DH &PH AS book pg 126
 
  • #1,707
Sorry got second person initials wrong so prob confused you

Im thinking of the brothers DH &PH AS book pg 126
Don’t know about PH, but AS has JH down as an accountant on P126
 
  • #1,708
Can’t recall if I said this previously on the thread, but I particularly recall DH as a being a carpenter in relation to SJL’s apparent mentions of going into business/buying a property jointly at the Saturday party, which made me wonder if she was looking to move into property development. In such a venture a carpenter (possibly with a bit of family money behind him) might prove an ideal busness partner.
 
  • #1,709
Your speculations as to what life was like in a 1980s estate agency are indeed spot on :)

That agency may have been particularly cut-throat because there was a nasty house price slump on in 89-92, but it gives a flavour.

If SJL had a buyer who'd been relegated in favour of a colleague's buyer, it's probably fair to say that she wouldn't have been looking for favours to do said colleague that lunchtime.

Remuneration structure appears not to have changed much:

...generally the commission you’ll take home is based on a percentage of the price of the property you sell, and the percentage of that sale that your office makes.
For example, if a property is sold for £200,000, and your office collects 2% of the sale, then the company you work for will make £4,000. Of that 2% fee, you might then be entitled to 10% personal commission, meaning you would earn £400 in commission.

SJL's £3,000 commission is often discussed as pointing to some sort of nefarious off-books dealing, but it is wholly explicable as part of her ordinary comp I would say.

Could the male bearing the champagne at Shorrolds be the buyer hoping to hear she had secured a sale for him only to learn she hadn't.
 
  • #1,710
I know this is old ground (I’m mostly a lurker on this thread) but…

what do people mostly think / conclude about the name itself ‘Mr Kipper’?

To me, it’s still very odd that SJL uses that word / name when having had a school friend who was teased with that. It’s hardly the sort of word / name that rolls into one’s mind when making an excuse to dip out of work. IMO maybe it could be a bigger clue than we realise and I don’t mean that directed to that person with the nickname but that it’s rather odd in its own right.
I feel this is an excellent point OdA and shouldn't be glossed over.
If this was a legitimate appointment, the police must surely have investigated every Mr Kipper in the country as surely there can't be many, has anyone on this thread ever met anyone of that name?
If, as people have suggested on this thread, this was a made-up appointment to cover an against-the-rules absence from the office, surely this wouldn't have been a name that would spring to mind. Who would Suzy have been trying to fool here? Presumably, either MG or KP or both. Would Suzy believe they wouldn't be sceptical about this name, with the jobs they held surely neither would be stupid and easily fooled?

Also, I don't mean to keep pressing the same point, but I still find it astonishing that according to office junior JC, the police have mistakenly believed for more than 35 years that Suzy left the office to pick up her car from Whittingstall Road when infact JC now claims that he left Suzy's car in Radipole Road. Surely it was JC who it was that told the police where he parked the car so was the policeman he told hard of hearing or something?!
Does anyone on this thread know the area well? If so, are there any quiet spots in the areas of Whittingstall Road, Radipole Road or any other road near to the Sturgis office, where an abduction could potentially take place in broad daylight on a weekday lunchtime out of the public eye?
This could be the key to solving this case.
 
  • #1,711
I feel this is an excellent point OdA and shouldn't be glossed over.
If this was a legitimate appointment, the police must surely have investigated every Mr Kipper in the country as surely there can't be many, has anyone on this thread ever met anyone of that name?
If, as people have suggested on this thread, this was a made-up appointment to cover an against-the-rules absence from the office, surely this wouldn't have been a name that would spring to mind. Who would Suzy have been trying to fool here? Presumably, either MG or KP or both. Would Suzy believe they wouldn't be sceptical about this name, with the jobs they held surely neither would be stupid and easily fooled?

Also, I don't mean to keep pressing the same point, but I still find it astonishing that according to office junior JC, the police have mistakenly believed for more than 35 years that Suzy left the office to pick up her car from Whittingstall Road when infact JC now claims that he left Suzy's car in Radipole Road. Surely it was JC who it was that told the police where he parked the car so was the policeman he told hard of hearing or something?!
Does anyone on this thread know the area well? If so, are there any quiet spots in the areas of Whittingstall Road, Radipole Road or any other road near to the Sturgis office, where an abduction could potentially take place in broad daylight on a weekday lunchtime out of the public eye?
This could be the key to solving this case.
Lots of questions EE

I believe that SJL knew her abductor and that she had agreed to meet him at Shorrolds Road, as a means to end their brief 'relationship'.

I think SJL would have been very compliant. She was either enticed into a property on or near to Stevenage Road, that he had access to or she went quietly with him when he threatened her and indicated or showed her he had a knife.

People believe they would scream and shout, kick out and try to escape etc. The reality is very different unless someone has been trained to defend themselves and has experienced being threatened and dealing with highly aggressive individuals.

Most people will freeze and be compliant as they process what is happening in a situation that they have never experienced before. This will always give the aggressor the advantage and enable them to have total control over their victim.

I get the feeling that the evidence from the staff at Sturgis was not tested thoroughly enough by the police investigation at the time. I believe that other things were at play with respect to business practices that they did not want to mention but could have had a bearing on how the police interpreted the limited evidence they had.
 
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  • #1,712
Could the male bearing the champagne at Shorrolds be the buyer hoping to hear she had secured a sale for him only to learn she hadn't.
Every property purchase I have made, has been as a result of making an offer after viewing a property and deciding on what I am prepared to pay and then maybe offering a reduced amount (5-10%), depending on the market at the time.

A phone call normally comes back in due course with either an acceptance or rejection.

I've never known anyone meet an agent at the property to learn that their offer has been accepted! Why would that happen?
 
  • #1,713
Lots of questions EE

I believe that SJL knew her abductor and that she had agreed to meet him at Shorrolds Road, as a means to end their brief 'relationship'.

I think SJL would have been very compliant. She was either enticed into a property on or near to Stevenage Road, that he had access to or she went quietly with him when he threatened her and indicated or showed her he had a knife.

People believe they would scream and shout, kick out and try to escape etc. The reality is very different unless someone has been trained to defend themselves and has experienced being threatened and dealing with highly aggressive individuals.

Most people will freeze and be compliant as they process what is happening in a situation that they have never experienced before. This will always give the aggressor the advantage and enable them to have total control over their victim.

I get the feeling that the evidence from the staff at Sturgis was not tested thoroughly enough by the police investigation at the time. I believe that other things were at play with respect to business practices that they did not want to mention but could have had a bearing on how the police interpreted the limited evidence they had.
But still, why the name Mr Kipper? If she genuinely was going to meet someone at Shorrolds, surely his real name wasn't Mr Kipper because surely the police would have found and investigated everyone of that name, if there are any, in the country.
Do you think that maybe Suzy might have used this name as she might have feared coming to harm at this supposed appointment and she might have felt that using this name would have alerted other office staff through scepticism about the likelihood of this being a real name that she might have been in danger if she didn't return immediately after lunchtime?
Having said that, if she genuinely suspected she was putting herself at such risk, it is surprising she would choose to meet up with such a person at all!
 
  • #1,714
Every property purchase I have made, has been as a result of making an offer after viewing a property and deciding on what I am prepared to pay and then maybe offering a reduced amount (5-10%), depending on the market at the time.

A phone call normally comes back in due course with either an acceptance or rejection.

I've never known anyone meet an agent at the property to learn that their offer has been accepted! Why would that happen?

Both myself and WestLondoner tried to give the forum an insight into how competiveness within an agency office can in some instances play out.
You only need 2 individual buyers who want the same property and prepared to outbid the other to create a gazumping situation. These situations happen more than you think and has caused estate agents to get a bad name due to one or more of the prospective buyers feeling they have been wronged or that estate agents deliberately encouraging price wars to secure a higher commission.
Estate agents also work with property developers who buy on a regular basis and rightly or wrongly expect some loyality when buying from the agent they want to secure a property at the lowest price when selling they want the highest price.

You will notice now that a lot of agents offer some properties with the advertised price as 'guide price' or 'offers over' this is how agents have tried to find a more acceptable way of achieving the highest price without the buyer feeling they have been gazumped. It is of course just the same just presented in a more acceptable way.

You asked why a personal meeting would happen rather than a telephone call. Its simple you would avoid making a telephone call to your offerer discussing what price and any contractural benefits he may be able to offer to outbid the previous offerer, within earshot of a competing colleague or someone else in the office who would be more supportive of the competing colleague securing his sale.

From SJL's point of view a personal meeting would also offer the opportunity to present other properties to him if that he decides not to increase his bid. She would most certainly present him with similar properties immediately and get him to view them. Remember this client is in a proceedable position and would be classed as a hot buyer she would not want to loose the opportunity to sell to him or risk him buying a property from another agent.

I dont know if you've looked at the diary page more closely but there appears to be something written on the line above the Mr kipper entry its not completely clear and could be an impression for a Saturday entry but interesting none the less.

Im no expert but what I can make out it says
He, His or He as sold for £******* profit
MOO
 
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  • #1,715
But still, why the name Mr Kipper? If she genuinely was going to meet someone at Shorrolds, surely his real name wasn't Mr Kipper because surely the police would have found and investigated everyone of that name, if there are any, in the country.
Do you think that maybe Suzy might have used this name as she might have feared coming to harm at this supposed appointment and she might have felt that using this name would have alerted other office staff through scepticism about the likelihood of this being a real name that she might have been in danger if she didn't return immediately after lunchtime?
Having said that, if she genuinely suspected she was putting herself at such risk, it is surprising she would choose to meet up with such a person at all!
It was discussed a way back in the thread. She knew DH who lived in Shorrolds rd his brother PH was on Sturgis mailing list.
Surname Herring - Herring is a split Kipper

Could it be SJL's way of disguising a name?

SJL's uncle said in conversation with her that she had said that someone had been leaning on her in a way that she did not like or thought was right.
 
  • #1,716
It was discussed a way back in the thread. She knew DH who lived in Shorrolds rd his brother PH was on Sturgis mailing list.
Surname Herring - Herring is a split Kipper

Could it be SJL's way of disguising a name?

SJL's uncle said in conversation with her that she had said that someone had been leaning on her in a way that she did not like or thought was right.
Yes I noted this from AS, the property developer angle is interesting, 37 SR may have been one that could have been turned into flats?
It had just come onto the market and getting in quickly with a developer might explain the use of Mr Kipper.
It’s also possible that it’s an uncomplimentary reference to someone as a Kipper is a smelly fish.
If her lunchtime appointment was with someone she wanted to get rid of the reference equally make sense.
 
  • #1,717
Lots of questions EE

I believe that SJL knew her abductor and that she had agreed to meet him at Shorrolds Road, as a means to end their brief 'relationship'.

I think SJL would have been very compliant. She was either enticed into a property on or near to Stevenage Road, that he had access to or she went quietly with him when he threatened her and indicated or showed her he had a knife.

People believe they would scream and shout, kick out and try to escape etc. The reality is very different unless someone has been trained to defend themselves and has experienced being threatened and dealing with highly aggressive individuals.

Most people will freeze and be compliant as they process what is happening in a situation that they have never experienced before. This will always give the aggressor the advantage and enable them to have total control over their victim.

I get the feeling that the evidence from the staff at Sturgis was not tested thoroughly enough by the police investigation at the time. I believe that other things were at play with respect to business practices that they did not want to mention but could have had a bearing on how the police interpreted the limited evidence they had.

Two seperate accounts of a scream were reported one by a housewife who discribed it as a 'high pitched yowl'

Galway guy picked up by a taxi in Finlay street said he had seen a couple having a right ruck in the street

A jogger reported coming out of the Bishops Park and seeing a BMW travelling at speed the woman could have been screaming or laughing at the driver, the horn was honked for a very long time.

Det Hacketts comment that she may have gone off with 2 men that day.

1. Property deal gone wrong.
2. Arguing Couple.
3. BMW Car
4. 1 possibly 2 males
5. Sharrolds rd
6. Stevenage road
8. Mr Kipper

Could one of the most important things DV managed to uncover was that there was a disagreement over a property purchase.
Were the police made aware of this at the time?
Would anyone think it worth mentioning if not asked directly.
Would police looked at SJL's prospective buyer a little closer if they did.

We know the police elimated DH whose knickname was Kip and Kipper owned a BMW lived in Shorrolds 15 door up from 37 previously lived in Wardo had a brother PH who was on Sturigis mailing list. Thats a lot of coincidences.

Det Hacketts comment that she may have gone off with 2 men that day.

Do you think police may have missed something

MOO
 
  • #1,718
It was discussed a way back in the thread. She knew DH who lived in Shorrolds rd his brother PH was on Sturgis mailing list.
Surname Herring - Herring is a split Kipper

Could it be SJL's way of disguising a name?

SJL's uncle said in conversation with her that she had said that someone had been leaning on her in a way that she did not like or thought was right.
So DH and PH's last name was Herring?
But, and sorry if this didn't come from you Cluesleuth, I thought the theory was that the reason SL might have made up this appointment was to cover an against-the-rules absence from the office. Are we saying that SL was in such a rush that she simply didn't have enough thinking time to come up with a more regular name that would be more likely to fool her bosses that she was out on a genuine appointment?
 
  • #1,719
So DH and PH's last name was Herring?
But, and sorry if this didn't come from you Cluesleuth, I thought the theory was that the reason SL might have made up this appointment was to cover an against-the-rules absence from the office. Are we saying that SL was in such a rush that she simply didn't have enough thinking time to come up with a more regular name that would be more likely to fool her bosses that she was out on a genuine appointment?
Yes .. DH was called Kip and Kipper at school

SJL knew DH so she may well have called him as Kip or Kipper so that wouldnt make the diary entry so strange
 
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  • #1,720
Yes I noted this from AS, the property developer angle is interesting, 37 SR may have been one that could have been turned into flats?
It had just come onto the market and getting in quickly with a developer might explain the use of Mr Kipper.
It’s also possible that it’s an uncomplimentary reference to someone as a Kipper is a smelly fish.
If her lunchtime appointment was with someone she wanted to get rid of the reference equally make sense.


2018 Google street walk shows it has had a flat conversion... you might need to zoom in to see more clearly
 
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