UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #2

[Whitehall 1212]

How the hell did he get away without emptying that for 40 years!

I think he did the emptying himself.....although the press reporting of the trial was lousy, so us humble Websleuthers don't know all that was said. Maybe blind luck?

He sold the farm to his nephew who, in July 2020, called out a company to do the emptying. The poor employee pulled out a clump of hair and then a skull and the house of cards came tumbling down.

 

[Pinkizzy]

Lollytruecrime has posted a new article about the Suffolk Strangler he may be an ex cop who drove a blue BMW with alloy wheels.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Were her remains found in a plastic bag in the cesspit? Historic crimes will be solved eventually

I don't think so, but Court reports were lousy. Although, that would probably have removed all thought that it was suicide, which was played on by the defence.

 

[Pinkizzy]

Lollytruecrime has posted a new article about the Suffolk Strangler he may be an ex cop who drove a blue BMW with alloy wheels.

It may be linked to SJL's case and the cops want us to follow the Mr Kipper narrative

 

[Whitehall 1212]

It may be linked to SJL's case and the cops want us to follow the Mr Kipper narrative

The offences are over twenty years apart.

The victim type and staging of victims in the Suffolk cases couldn't be more diverse. I cannot see any reasonable comparison between SJL's disappearance and the Suffolk cases.

On the face of it, I can see that SW being found guilty of the Suffolk murders is definitely worth a look at. There was an awful lot of pressure on Suffolk Constabulary to get their man and stop the killings....it seemed to be never ending at the time!

 

[Cluesleuth]

In terms of the Kipper name, possible explanations are:

1. There was a real Mr Kipper or similar sounding name, e.g. Keiper, Kuiper etc. SLJ was dyslexic so she may have spelt a name as it sounded to her or mixed the letters up on account of her dyslexia

2. That it was a bogus name given by the person who made the house viewing appointment in Shorrolds Road

KEIPER.. Kei_ _ Per_ _ _ ?

In 1986 Biff Chip and Kipper were a series childrens reading books. Based on Oxford Reading Tree was used in 80% of primary schools.

Kipper House Tales by F. Hamilton - a reminiscience of west coast life

 

[Cluesleuth]

Ive been searching for the time of the jogger sighting of the arguing couple in the BMW can anyone throw any light on this please

 

[Terryb808]

Ive been searching for the time of the jogger sighting of the arguing couple in the BMW can anyone throw any light on this please

The article I got this from said the jogger exited Bishops Park at about 1.50pm. You’ll need to look at Shorrolds Road & Stevenage Road, and the route to see if this fits with your theory.
For this to be correct WJ ‘s early sighting of SJL’s car would also be correct.

 

[Cluesleuth]

The article I got this from said the jogger exited Bishops Park at about 1.50pm. You’ll need to look at Shorrolds Road & Stevenage Road, and the route to see if this fits with your theory.
For this to be correct WJ ‘s early sighting of SJL’s car would also be correct.

Wouldnt the jogger sighting fit in more with the taxi cab sighting of seeing the fiesta at 2pm in Stevenage road?

 

[Terryb808]

Wouldnt the jogger sighting fit in more with the taxi cab sighting of seeing the fiesta at 2pm in Stevenage road?

Just need to ID the James Galway man as he fit this time also.

 

[Crusader21]

Trawling through the multiple pages after a few weeks in the sun!

And the most note-worthy thing for me, is the observation of John Duffy's likness to James Galway man. Very interesting indeed!

The police placed credence on Galway as a person of interest. Depite the enormus publicity he failed to come forward. He was a short distance away from where SLs fiesta was probably abandoned and at a very credible time too. Oddly DV didn't mention Galway ...

Gonna read up and also watch My5 ....

Forgive me for revisiting this. JC did not resemble Galway. I wonder are there any pics (from July 1986) of CV, the male half of the couple, any of SLs boyfriends, male business associates that we can source to see if they have a mop of dark hair and accompanying beard?

 

[asyousay]

It’s a shame this happened in the 80’s as now everybody’s faces are plastered over the internet.

 

[Crusader21]

It’s a shame this happened in the 80’s as now everybody’s faces are plastered over the internet.

Indeed.

If it's true that we have all the info there, and we just need to piece together. Then wouldn't it be mega if someone in SLs life that weekend - a boyfriend, business partner / colleague, the landlord who had her diary, matched the description of this individual?

Alternatively, as Cluesleuth, has done in this case - linked Galway to a known kidnapper / sexual offender.

Out of interest I wonder how many males would have sported such a thick beard in 1986? Clean shaven or designer stuble would have been more the norm?

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Trawling through the multiple pages after a few weeks in the sun!

And the most note-worthy thing for me, is the observation of John Duffy's likness to James Galway man. Very interesting indeed!

The police placed credence on Galway as a person of interest. Depite the enormus publicity he failed to come forward. He was a short distance away from where SLs fiesta was probably abandoned and at a very credible time too. Oddly DV didn't mention Galway ...

Gonna read up and also watch My5 ....

Forgive me for revisiting this. JC did not resemble Galway. I wonder are there any pics (from July 1986) of CV, the male half of the couple, any of SLs boyfriends, male business associates that we can source to see if they have a mop of dark hair and accompanying beard?

I think it is essential to factor in WHEN the various witnesses came forward....not that we have all that information.

I would doubt the reliability of any statements provided by witnesses who had been exposed to media reports/reconstructions and/or failed to come forward in a timely way.

The main exception would be if they were reporting and their report included detail known only to the investigation at that time, with any leak ruled out.

If the 'James Galway' character didn't come forward that could be very much dependent on when the cabbie reported to the police.

Do we know if that was in the early stages of the initial investigation, the later stages or during the first review from 2000?

 

[Terryb808]

I think it is essential to factor in WHEN the various witnesses came forward....not that we have all that information.

I would doubt the reliability of any statements provided by witnesses who had been exposed to media reports/reconstructions and/or failed to come forward in a timely way.

The main exception would be if they were reporting and their report included detail known only to the investigation at that time, with any leak ruled out.

If the 'James Galway' character didn't come forward that could be very much dependent on when the cabbie reported to the police.

Do we know if that was in the early stages of the initial investigation, the later stages or during the first review from 2000?

From memory isn’t the cabbie and James Galway man in the Oct 86 Crimewatch?

 

[Konstantin]

From memory isn’t the cabbie and James Galway man in the Oct 86 Crimewatch?

yes i think he came forward in response to an early press appeal for witnesses. But the fare who claimed to see an arguing couple never came forward. I assume the cab driver gave the police details about the man's accent, and so on that were not reported so that if someone did come forward it would be easier to verify him.

There are many reasons he might not have come forward. He might have missed the publicity, not everyone watches the news / crimewatch.

A London cabbie would pick up a NOrthern accent right away... I am sure he would have given more detail about the fare than was reported in the media. I think if the cabbie had described a male who looked like the pub relief landlord who the police met and interviewed that would have been realised... they are not that stupid. The detectives on the case were experienced.

 

[Cluesleuth]

It’s a shame this happened in the 80’s as now everybody’s faces are plastered over the internet.

Yes its been one of the most fustrating things Ive encountered when trying to find photos of people named in the case.

So Ive just let things unfold as I have found them, taking notes about things that might have significance in piecing the jigsaw together.
For anyone interested:-
I pulled up the two photofits of MR KIPPER and looked very closely at both HR's sketch which was drawn with a heavy hand and someone had coloured it up to make it more realistic most likely to eccentuate the tan but two things stood out HR's sketch I thought showed a cleft in the chin and a definate difference in the right and left side of the face jawline.It also showed that the left ear was more prominient. So I then I looked at sketch 2 and that two showed a slightly different left side face particularly the jawline, the left ear also more pronounced the face a little longer but no cleft in the chin though (a detail that could be overlooked by a witness if he was walking by) None of these characteristics appear to have been mentioned in any appeal or newspaper.

I pulled up Rosengarten/kipper I found a photo of him on an online auction site. Its since disappeared most likely sold.
He has got a chubby face, same hair style as HR's sketch , slight difference in left and right side, a broken nose, left ear appears pronounced, no cleft.

So then I remembered DM had a pronounced right ear I noticed it on his skating video I went back and played it several times in slow motion and he does it also shows him with a tan (his ears noticibly paler) His hair is naturally mousey but like Duffy he had coloured it black and grown it considerably longer , the skating video made in 1987. He has a mark over the bridge of his nose but its not noticibly broken. I thought perhaps the left ear and the nose were a result of his martial arts/skating hobbies. There is definately a difference in the right and left face his jawline on the left side it appears more angled as in the photofits. A mark on his chin I thought maybe a cleft but zoomed in and found tto be some kind of mark.
I went back thru the videos and found that its actually a mole which I easily mistook as a possible cleft in Kipper sketch 1.
So I wouldnt make rash assumptions Ive revisited the videos of DM and the 2 kipper photofits many times over the last 2 weeks and see that with shorter hair (bear in mind the skating video was in 1987 1 year later) if he had brushed back his black hair he bore a good resemblence to HR's sketch but with a slightly longer face, Sketch 2 shows a slightly longer face.

Then I revisited a lot of the JD and DM cases articles and videos and where the press made much of the crimes happening near to railway stations I found one interesting clip in the Crimewatch reconstruction of Ann Lock's murder. Ann worked as a secretary for London Weekend TV the programes ran to a tight schedule and that evening Ann worked until 8.30pm typing the scripts when she finnished she handed them over to delivery drivers who would deliver them to the producers homes. So the company used driver/couriers.
Then I looked at the occupation of Alison Day she worked for a Solicitor. Its more than likely they used driver/couriers too.
Going back to the top of SJL's diary page... bike contract! confirming they used bike couriers.

DM had many jobs to name a few builder, plasterer, electrician, Taxi cab driver, bike courier and chaffeur. Its possible that he mixed these jobs in alongside whatever work he was doing at the time.. jobbing on the side.
Its documented that after becoming bankrupt in 1990's he driving a Taxi Cab,Bike Courier and Chaffeur, the 80's and 90's were years of high unemployment so he may have had to fall back on old job skills to gain employment.
Its important to note he owned a motorbike in 1986, he and Duffy used it in the murder of MT.
He and Duffy stole cars regularly from a young age Duffy had also stolen the cassette of 'Thriller' from one. Details of these car are not listed to any great extent but would be interesting to know what car he used for chaffuering was it the clients car or was it a stolen/hire car (BMW?)

Where I coulndn't find MT's mother occupation her father was a civil engineer for Shell UK Exploration and Production would that have given him access to a chaffuer driven car or taxi cab to work related locations around the UK and airports?

I think there was more planning and stalking of the victims in these murders than the police uncovered.
JD and DM were said to have meticuously planned their abductions which in my opinion doesn't come across in the videos about them.
Originally they had a plan to abduct someone drive them around London to disorientate them and hold them in a place for a number of days.

Possible coincidences
The BMW was found less than 2 miles from Kilburn where JD lived
SJL's keys were missing JD collected keys as souveniers from his victims.
Courier/Driver. DM owned a Motorcycle in 1986
Both men had changed their hair colour to black.
Both men known car thieves
JD's resemblence to James Galway man
DM facial similarities to Mr Kipper
Jogger sighting of BMW and taxi cab pick up of James Galway man at similiar times in the area.

My mind remains completely open to all possiblities and these are not the only people I think are worth looking at in more detail it just takes a massive amount of time trying to unravell it all.
Its a fascinating case
MOO

Darker complexion ... Mole on chin Skip to 11.16 in video

Ann handing over the scripts to delivery drivers who would deliver them to the producers homes skip to 6.18 in video

 

[Konstantin]

This appears to be a photo of David Rosengarten/Kiper. If this is him then you could say it looks like the HR photofit albeit he's chubbier in the face. HOw could HR have gotten a good look at him through his window anyway? He must only have glimpsed him for a second.

ROSENGARTEN DAVID MR KIPER SUZY LAMPLUGH CASE - SIFT POLICE CAR PETER JOHNSTONE - Vintage Photograph

 

[Terryb808]

SJL - The Police had a tough time
When you take a step backwards and look at the Suzy Lamplugh case you can’t help but feel the police had a tough time back in 1986. SJL’s disappearance hit the headlines almost immediately and was in the media eye big time.
Add to this the amount of information that the police had to deal with and the lack of any computer aided assistance and you have a recipe for chaos. Then you have very influential parents and in particular DL’s desire to run the police enquiry herself, IMO the influence she had seriously derailed the polices efforts to solve SJL’s disappearance.
THe amount of information in the public domain alone is overwhelming and finding a serious trail to follow is very difficult, so think about how much more information the police have that's not available to us out here.
For example, SJL’s desk diary has at least 3 lines of enquiry, then there's her social circle, this must have an enormous number of leads to follow. Her personal diary (which we don’t have access to) has to have enough lines of enquiry to keep a complete team of detectives in work for months.
We’ve not touched on the Mr Kipper line of enquiry yet, was he real, was he fake, what is for sure is that someone must have been outside 37 Shorrolds Road for witnesses to have come forward. Instead of assuming he was real, more effort should have been put into actually validating the entry and evaluating other possibilities.
I’m sure the police will have been aware of some of SJL’s other leisure activities, to name but two, tennis & gym. The exclusive gym she frequented had some interesting members and this alone would have taken up a fair bit of detective time.
It’s easy to see why the police seemed to go around in ever decreasing circles and disappear down the rabbit hole, the amount of information available was just totally overwhelming.
We’re lucky today, we have computers to do the data sifting, CCTV to be our eyes, ANPR to track vehicles, I bet the detectives back then would have thought this absolute paradise.
But having said that people still disappear without trace, we have all this yet Leah Croucher did just that.
I’m not making excuses, just trying to see the other side of the coin.

 

[Terryb808]

SJL - The James Galway Man
I feel that the importance of “The James Galway Man” has been overlooked, he appeared in the October 86 Crimewatch programme, so the cabbie came forward very quickly. It's unlikely that he was unaware of being identified as a possible key witness, yet chose not to come forward.
He’s important because he was possibly a man in the right place at the right time, by this I mean in Stevenage Road, close to where SJL’s car was eventually found and at sometime before 2.00pm.
While the exact time SJL’s car was abandoned can’t be accurately established, it could be prior to 2.00pm, and would very much depend on where SJL went prior to being abducted.
Cluesleuth has identified a suspect that resembles the James Galway Man, if this suspect was involved the timings are correct for SJL’s car to have been abandoned and for him to have hailed a cab.
Additionally, if DV’s theory is correct and (we don’t know this) CV resembles the James Galway Man, the timings are also right.
Also, if SJL was professionally abducted from Shorrolds Road, the timings would again be spot on for him to have hailed the cab.
We’ve assumed that he was a northerner because of the use of “right ruck”, however, what we don’t know is what accent he actually had, did he have a London accent, but used this northern term.
This may appear a small detail, but it significantly changes the direction of any investigation, for example a broad northern accent points towards CV, while a London accent would go with Cluesleuths suspects.
Does anyone have more on what the cabbie actually said about The James Galway Man?