UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #3

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  • #461
Was the name KIPPER chosen by the perpertrator for a specific reason....
Time to put your Detective head on and see what you can uncover, perhaps the name itself is the biggest clue ;)

A divination card is a type of item that can be collected to exchange for a reward.

Kipper Card Divination

The first Kipper deck is said to have been created by one Susanne Kipper, a then famous fortune teller and card reader from Berlin who supposedly used Gypsy Cards and Lenormand in her hometown, but after a relocation to Bavaria was forced to create her own set of 36 cards.

Believed to have been invented between 1870 and 1890.

All very interesting but Kipper or Keiper is not an unusual name in Germany, with variations that occur in other part of northern Europe. Additionally, in the UK, the root of many of the words in our current lexicon are Germanic.

I don't see any connection with 'Mr Kipper', SJL, JC, HRH The Prince of Wales or anyone else. Although the PoW is of strong German heritage.....oh dear :oops:

The Card Geek’s Kipper | Deck Review | The Queen's Sword
 
  • #462
It's the overwhelming desire to have answers and closure that produces obscure theories. The police have identified the only suspect but the key bit of evidence evades them, i.e. SJL's body. This doesn't give the closure people need and they have to direct their angst and apportion blame. The police are an easy target because they don't provide a running commentary of the investigation and hence they are unable to defend themselves. Therefore the hollow voice of the naysayer is heard all too readily.

Interestingly enough, DV's book hinges on the narrative that the police got it very badly wrong in this case and therefore this is his impetus for starting his own investigation. I think, however, that the POW theory is not a new one.

A few things jump out at me here.

First, DV would be aware of what you say in your quote above, so that makes his reasoning for his investigation rather interesting to me (as a kind of side psychological question...hey, he wrote a book, people get to discuss why he did it). At one point towards the beginning of the book, DV meets some of his ex colleagues in the pub and one is from the Murder Review Group. He is annoyed that his colleague told the MRG guy which case he was working on, because he thinks the Met will somehow interfere, warn him off. He is distrustful. He chooses what he says or doesn't say in his book, so why say this? I think it shows that he is distrustful, wants the reader to know he is, because the premise for his book is that the police are barking up the wrong tree--and deliberately so--with the JC line.

If DV knew that the POW line of enquiry would have been investigated, and ruled out i.e. no further action, why does he then follow it, to the point of all but naming a live person? He did get a meeting with the Met to put it to them, they didn't tell him to just get lost, they sat down with him, even though he thinks his theory has been dismissed.
 
  • #463
The first Kipper deck is said to have been created by one Susanne Kipper, a then famous fortune teller and card reader from Berlin who supposedly used Gypsy Cards and Lenormand in her hometown, but after a relocation to Bavaria was forced to create her own set of 36 cards.

Believed to have been invented between 1870 and 1890.

All very interesting but Kipper or Keiper is not an unusual name in Germany, with variations that occur in other part of northern Europe. Additionally, in the UK, the root of many of the words in our current lexicon are Germanic.

I don't see any connection with 'Mr Kipper', SJL, JC, HRH The Prince of Wales or anyone else. Although the PoW is of strong German heritage.....oh dear :oops:

The Card Geek’s Kipper | Deck Review | The Queen's Sword
Oh dear unfortunately youve completely missed it!
Its got nothing to do with Germany lol

Try not to deviate from the page I posted the link to, perhaps save the page it might be something you come back to in the future.
 
  • #464
Interestingly enough, DV's book hinges on the narrative that the police got it very badly wrong in this case and therefore this is his impetus for starting his own investigation. I think, however, that the POW theory is not a new one.

A few things jump out at me here.

First, DV would be aware of what you say in your quote above, so that makes his reasoning for his investigation rather interesting to me (as a kind of side psychological question...hey, he wrote a book, people get to discuss why he did it). At one point towards the beginning of the book, DV meets some of his ex colleagues in the pub and one is from the Murder Review Group. He is annoyed that his colleague told the MRG guy which case he was working on, because he thinks the Met will somehow interfere, warn him off. He is distrustful. He chooses what he says or doesn't say in his book, so why say this? I think it shows that he is distrustful, wants the reader to know he is, because the premise for his book is that the police are barking up the wrong tree--and deliberately so--with the JC line.

If DV knew that the POW line of enquiry would have been investigated, and ruled out i.e. no further action, why does he then follow it, to the point of all but naming a live person? He did get a meeting with the Met to put it to them, they didn't tell him to just get lost, they sat down with him, even though he thinks his theory has been dismissed.
Lots of interesting material here. Thanks @Konstantin

I consider that DV's relationship with the Met, on account of him leaving with 20 of an usual 30 years service, is the driving factor in him taking on the venture into the SJL's disappearance. As far as we know he hasn't worked on the case as a detective.

DV may have some bad blood with the Met, for whatever reason.

DV needs to earn a living using the skills he has and that he gets a lot of satisfaction from....criminal investigation.

Of all the high profile emotive UK cases to choose, SJL is probably the accessible. Others would be Claudia Lawrence, the Birmingham pub bombings, David Kelly affair, establishment paedophile rings, the Daniel Morgan murder etc. They include reported elements of perverting the course of justice, institutional cover up or serious corruption.

However, they come with great difficulty in finding people to talk and the potential for the men in grey suits and other less friendly individuals to take an interest in what is being investigated.

So I think DV has been quite clever in selecting the SLJ case and to use the focus of the PoW to build his book around. Note I say he choose the PoW, not that there is any credible evidence that pointed him there.....tail wagging the dog.

DV will be clearly aware that the police satisfied the line of enquiry at the PoW and that they do not have any evidential basis to apply for a search warrant. This way his assertion will never be proven wrong. He has been very careful not to name suspects and to explain why he hasn't been able to search but 'may' try crowd funding and to obtain permission from the current PoW owners.

Lots of if's and but's, and all the time the Met cannot comment on the investigation as it is still live.....DV knows this and is playing the system, making money and becoming a unreachable itch for the Met. Result!

But I still don't buy it.....call it plain old boring common sense!
 
  • #465
Oh dear unfortunately youve completely missed it!
Its got nothing to do with Germany lol

Try not to deviate from the page I posted the link to, perhaps save the page it might be something you come back to in the future.
I didn't say it had anything to do with Germany. I was providing some facts on the origin of Kipper cards, the name Kipper and the basis for many of the words in the English language.

I get the 'meaning's' given for the various cards that may be drawn from the pack. I know that the SJL investigation have had a shed load of water diviners, clairvoyants, card readers, dream interpreters etc reporting their mystical findings.

Now back in the real world...........

Of course if you have divine insight, would you please share it ;)
 
  • #466
@Whitehall 1212 If the permanent landlord and the relief landlord were in the PoW when SJL's items went missing (Sunday), why did it take 12 months before the permanent landlord knew anything about the lost property? It sounds fishy, doesn't it?
 
  • #467
@Whitehall 1212 If the permanent landlord and the relief landlord were in the PoW when SJL's items went missing (Sunday), why did it take 12 months before the permanent landlord knew anything about the lost property? It sounds fishy, doesn't it?
Erm no. It has many interpretations:

1. No one mentioned it to him

2. Someone mentioned it and he forgot

3. Someone mentioned it and he didn't make the connection

4. Someone mentioned it and he felt it was coincidental and had no bearing on the SJL investigation, He has forgotten or says he has because he is tired of all the questions

4. There was a dastardly cover up of SJL's disappearance involving the temp landlord, pub staff and customers in the hours after he left and the key evidence is still in the pub. The permanent landlord is aware but acquiesced at the time and continues to do so

Incidentally, how long after SJL's disappearance was the permanent landlord interviewed and by whom? How were the questions put....open, closed, confirmationary, leading? Please don't say DV!

One of the intangible and subjective tasks that any new police officer has to get to grips with is how to recognise 'reasonable suspicion'. It's a strange concept to understand and requires a combination of all the established facts, their various interpretations, effective questioning, common sense and maybe a bit of gut instinct for good measure. This little treasure is not pushing any of those buttons.
 
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  • #468
Was the name KIPPER chosen by the perpertrator for a specific reason....
Time to put your Detective head on and see what you can uncover, perhaps the name itself is the biggest clue ;)

A divination card is a type of item that can be collected to exchange for a reward.

Kipper Card Divination
Just read this, its a uncanny coincidence isn't it?
 
  • #469
@Whitehall 1212 If the permanent landlord and the relief landlord were in the PoW when SJL's items went missing (Sunday), why did it take 12 months before the permanent landlord knew anything about the lost property? It sounds fishy, doesn't it?
It sure does. The permanent landlord MH knew there was lost property, but there often was; he did not know whose this was. That it had belonged to the country's most famous missing person, had been given not back to her but to the police, that CV had given them a statement but nobody mentioned this to him not even Karen F, and that he was finding out about it all the first time a year later must have left MH totally thunderstruck. Incidentally, it is interesting that CV was apparently the only person questioned. If KF was actually there that day, wouldn't they have spoken to her, too?
 
  • #470
I wonder, how many other people within the force support DV's suspicions - maybe officers who worked on the case - and are in favour of his arguments? I reckon there must be plenty? Or at least plenty who are open to questioning if there's stuff that needs to be looked at.

I would rather hope that if so, they will be encouraged to speak up.
 
  • #471
It sure does. The permanent landlord MH knew there was lost property, but there often was; he did not know whose this was. That it had belonged to the country's most famous missing person, had been given not back to her but to the police, that CV had given them a statement but nobody mentioned this to him not even Karen F, and that he was finding out about it all the first time a year later must have left MH totally thunderstruck. Incidentally, it is interesting that CV was apparently the only person questioned. If KF was actually there that day, wouldn't they have spoken to her, too?
You should ask yourself how the permanent landlord didn't find this out from his drinkers, let's face it, it was big news for a long time and presumably the police visited the PoW during opening time to talk to CV?
This would mean CV kept the finding of the lost items from the PoW customers and made sure none of the staff mentioned it, IMO that's pretty difficult to do.
 
  • #472
You should ask yourself how the permanent landlord didn't find this out from his drinkers, let's face it, it was big news for a long time and presumably the police visited the PoW during opening time to talk to CV?
This would mean CV kept the finding of the lost items from the PoW customers and made sure none of the staff mentioned it, IMO that's pretty difficult to do.
I need to go back and read what DV wrote about his interview with the landlord.

I recall that he was annoyed or miffed or surprised that he had not been interviewed by the police and that he had expected to be interviewed as he was physically present when the items were found. Perhaps we misread this and in fact he was told about it. He can't have been away very long. If he was expecting to be interviewed it suggests he did know. But yes. needs a reread.

AS is not very detailed about this incident but does give some timings related to it. The prevailing understanding was that the items were lost Friday night but that raises the question why the relief landlord and wife turn up on the Friday night when they were not needed til Monday, given that you would have expected them to therefore require paying for the Sat and Sun then. Since the real landlord was present when they were found, that could have been Sunday too as he didn't leave til Monday noonish. If he looked at the items, and saw Suzy's name, he mustn't have recognised it so maybe she really didn;t frequent that pub.
 
  • #473
I need to go back and read what DV wrote about his interview with the landlord.

I recall that he was annoyed or miffed or surprised that he had not been interviewed by the police and that he had expected to be interviewed as he was physically present when the items were found. Perhaps we misread this and in fact he was told about it. He can't have been away very long. If he was expecting to be interviewed it suggests he did know. But yes. needs a reread.

AS is not very detailed about this incident but does give some timings related to it. The prevailing understanding was that the items were lost Friday night but that raises the question why the relief landlord and wife turn up on the Friday night when they were not needed til Monday, given that you would have expected them to therefore require paying for the Sat and Sun then. Since the real landlord was present when they were found, that could have been Sunday too as he didn't leave til Monday noonish. If he looked at the items, and saw Suzy's name, he mustn't have recognised it so maybe she really didn;t frequent that pub.
I seem to recall the landlord telling CV to call the bank on the Monday, can't remember if this was AS or DV.
 
  • #474
It sure does. The permanent landlord MH knew there was lost property, but there often was; he did not know whose this was. That it had belonged to the country's most famous missing person, had been given not back to her but to the police, that CV had given them a statement but nobody mentioned this to him not even Karen F, and that he was finding out about it all the first time a year later must have left MH totally thunderstruck. Incidentally, it is interesting that CV was apparently the only person questioned. If KF was actually there that day, wouldn't they have spoken to her, too?
It only sounds 'fishy' if it needs to sound fishy to support a flawed hypothesis, which is in desperate need of something/anything to provide a bolster.

1. If this came from DV then it is contaminated on account of his questionable motives
2. There is nothing to support that SJL went to the PoW on 28th July 1986
3. The PoW and SJL's property was a line of enquiry, which the police investigation satisfactorily completed
4. This hypothesis cannot rebut the desk diary entry, the witness sightings at SR, the photofit, the artists impression and the considerable circumstantial evidence re JC, who was in Fulham that day.
5. Is it really likely that a SJL met her death at a pub which was open for business on a Monday lunchtime at the height of summer and either everyone is 'in on it' or 'saw nothing'? Furthermore that her body was concealed there and is still there to this day!

<modsnip>
 
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  • #475
You should ask yourself how the permanent landlord didn't find this out from his drinkers, let's face it, it was big news for a long time and presumably the police visited the PoW during opening time to talk to CV?
This would mean CV kept the finding of the lost items from the PoW customers and made sure none of the staff mentioned it, IMO that's pretty difficult to do.

Indeed. Everyone in the UK was talking about it. Except the people in the pub nearest to where SJL lived and had been intending to go on the last day she was ever seen. Pull the other one, it's got bells on it. As they say.
 
  • #476
Indeed. Everyone in the UK was talking about it. Except the people in the pub nearest to where SJL lived and had been intending to go on the last day she was ever seen. Pull the other one, it's got bells on it. As they say.
What is the source of this 'fishy' fact that the permanent landlord was unaware that the property found was SJL's?

Maybe someone would like to provide the link to support this assertion and then we can assess its credibility and reliability.
 
  • #477
Come to think, the regular landlord would have surely known from the national news? It was on all the national news including television and newspapers.

The landlord (and family) must have known SJL well as she lived so close by and frequented the pub so regularly. I wonder, when the diary etc was found, if he / they said something gossipy or salacious or sexualised about her to the incoming relief managers??
 
  • #478
It sure does. The permanent landlord MH knew there was lost property, but there often was; he did not know whose this was. That it had belonged to the country's most famous missing person, had been given not back to her but to the police, that CV had given them a statement but nobody mentioned this to him not even Karen F, and that he was finding out about it all the first time a year later must have left MH totally thunderstruck. Incidentally, it is interesting that CV was apparently the only person questioned. If KF was actually there that day, wouldn't they have spoken to her, too?
What is the source of this 'fishy' fact that the permanent landlord was unaware that the property found was SJL's?

Maybe someone would like to provide the link to support this assertion and then we can assess its credibility and reliability.
 
  • #479
I need to go back and read what DV wrote about his interview with the landlord.

I recall that he was annoyed or miffed or surprised that he had not been interviewed by the police and that he had expected to be interviewed as he was physically present when the items were found. Perhaps we misread this and in fact he was told about it. He can't have been away very long. If he was expecting to be interviewed it suggests he did know. But yes. needs a reread.

AS is not very detailed about this incident but does give some timings related to it. The prevailing understanding was that the items were lost Friday night but that raises the question why the relief landlord and wife turn up on the Friday night when they were not needed til Monday, given that you would have expected them to therefore require paying for the Sat and Sun then. Since the real landlord was present when they were found, that could have been Sunday too as he didn't leave til Monday noonish. If he looked at the items, and saw Suzy's name, he mustn't have recognised it so maybe she really didn;t frequent that pub.

Might be a clue in there. Maybe he would have liked to have been able to chip in his tuppenceworth about something he suspected? Only to find out the case had taken its own traction into the Kipper property abduciton narrative and to find out his thoughts would be irrelevant?

JMO MOO
 
  • #480
I wonder, how many other people within the force support DV's suspicions - maybe officers who worked on the case - and are in favour of his arguments? I reckon there must be plenty? Or at least plenty who are open to questioning if there's stuff that needs to be looked at.

I would rather hope that if so, they will be encouraged to speak up.
It would probably a CID career ending move in terms of failing to following where the evidence takes you and no invite to the Christmas party.

The Met are desperate for new recruits with direct entry to the CID. How about applying and try out your theory in practice.
 
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