UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #3

[asyousay]

I think we may have the answer we have been looking for re the POW being open at lunchtime

DV bok page 183
Thus is CV recounting his conversation with the bank
'And they said to get in touch with her, and that she'd get in touch with me,' he carried on. ' I got a phone call back about dinner time, before we opened

Does this mean Lunch time to southerners?

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Does this mean Lunch time to southerners?

It all depends on CV's understanding of when "dinner time" is

We understand that SJL spoke to the PoW not long before she left Sturgis at approx 12:30. Therefore CV probably understands "dinner time" to be midday/early afternoon meal.

 

[Konstantin]

Dinner means lunch yes

Tea is what southerners call dinner or supper

But we don’t know what time exactly he’s referring to. But probably around lunchtime given when we know she was calling the pub. At least from her office.

The crucial thing here is that he’s saying the call was before they opened meaning in his recollection it appears the pub was open that afternoon from around lunchtime.

Does this mean Lunch time to southerners?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

AS book page 41
There were two workmen digging holes and laying pipes in Stevenage Rd, just yards from where Susannahs car was found. BC and his son cc were working outside in the road from 9-4. But neither saw nor heard anything unusual no screams, no groans, shouts or struggles.

How big of trenches were they digging? Is there any possibility she could have been buried in with the pipes? Not trying to allege the work people here

 

[Whitehall 1212]

How big of trenches were they digging? Is there any possibility she could have been buried in with the pipes? Not trying to allege the work people here

I guess if there were just two of them they weren't person sized trenches.....you need a whole work party and a big digger for that.

<modsnip>

JMO

 

[Cherwell]

I've been catching up here, read the first thread but chickened out of the second when I saw it was 98 pages!
I'm finding all the initials difficult as although I remember the case well, I'm not familiar with all the personnel involved. Found a copy of the Andrew Stephen book in the library which I've reserved, so will be reading up as soon as I can collect it.

 

[Cherwell]

"In 2007, a criminologist who had corresponded with Cannan revealed that the police reinvestigations of 2000–2002 had discovered DNA evidence in a car previously owned by Cannan that showed Lamplugh had previously been inside the vehicle"

"Although these tests indicated Lamplugh had been in the car, as well as Cannan, the Crown Prosecution Service felt there was insufficient evidence to prove that they had been in the vehicle at the same time, meaning charges were unable to be brought against Cannan for her murder" Berry-Dee & Odell 2007, pp. 346–347. via Wikipedia

Interesting. First I have heard of this.

This caught my eye, and I wondered if there was confusion with the Sandra Court case, which is quoted in the same wikipedia article:

"When the Ford Sierra was discovered at the north London scrap yard during the Lamplugh reinvestigations of the early 2000s, two hairs were found inside that matched the DNA of Sandra Court. Cannan would have had access to this car when Court was murdered. Despite this, the DNA evidence was not strong enough to bring a prosecution against Cannan for her murder."

That's what many pubs were like in those days - pretty rough.

It was only throughout the 90s a notable large pub chain starting acquiring premises with a key part of their mission being at that time women should feel safe and welcome, office workers should feel comfortable to nip in for lunch, and the toilets must always be clean.

Before that pubs were mostly grubby, dusty, smoke-filled, noisy, boozy affairs with juke boxes, fruit machines, pool tables, pin ball machines, crisps and peanuts, not too many women.

That really isn't true! While every town had its share of those kind of basic, masculine, regulars-only kind of pubs, most pubs catered to a wider clientele and were comfortable and smart. That was the case even back in the 1970s, and even earlier.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I've been catching up here, read the first thread but chickened out of the second when I saw it was 98 pages!
I'm finding all the initials difficult as although I remember the case well, I'm not familiar with all the personnel involved. Found a copy of the Andrew Stephen book in the library which I've reserved, so will be reading up as soon as I can collect it.

Just finished it.....ploughed through it in a day. An interesting read.....gives good background.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

This caught my eye, and I wondered if there was confusion with the Sandra Court case, which is quoted in the same wikipedia article:

I've heard both too. This case has featured in so many publications and true crime documentaries that there are inaccuracies quoted all the time.....the trouble is knowing which are right and which are wrong!

Either way the hair samples were not a low ratio match such as 1:300,000,000 more like 1:60000, which is not sufficiently rare to be presented as evidence.

 

[Cluesleuth]

How big of trenches were they digging? Is there any possibility she could have been buried in with the pipes? Not trying to allege the work people here

My thoughts after reading the DV book was that he would have had a better chance of pushing this theory rather than the POW one
MOO

 

[Cluesleuth]

I've been catching up here, read the first thread but chickened out of the second when I saw it was 98 pages!
I'm finding all the initials difficult as although I remember the case well, I'm not familiar with all the personnel involved. Found a copy of the Andrew Stephen book in the library which I've reserved, so will be reading up as soon as I can collect it.

Welcome to the thread @Cherwell

 

[WestLondoner]

Was Mossops a posh place? If SJL and AL liked it I assume it was either trendy or upmarket.

I went there once with my area manager in 1988. I was a sales rep WFH in the Midlands, and my area manager WFH in Putney where he lived. I was down in town on leave and we took half a day to catch up at his house on some stuff, then he bought us lunch there. All I remember about Mossops was that as we left his house, his wife remarked "Ooh, Mossops - lucky you!" I'm trying to think of a modern comparison. It was maybe like a Côte or something? He commented that Sturgis in Fulham was once of the agents who had shown him property when he moved there 2 years before and he was fairly sure he had met SJL.

I think we may have the answer we have been looking for re the POW being open at lunchtime

DV bok page 183
This is CV recounting his conversation with the bank
'And they said to get in touch with her, and that she'd get in touch with me,' he carried on. ' I got a phone call back about dinner time, before we opened

You see that is really interesting because if she phoned "about dinner time" but "before we opened" - well, which is it? It can't have been at 1pm or even at 12.40, because there's no way that's before they opened - pubs didn't open at 1 o'clock. This potentially casts doubt for me on the supposed 12.40 departure time, because if CV's account here is accurate, it suggests a call followed her departure at more like quarter to twelve, not quarter to one. It's about lunchtime, it's before they opened, a 12 noon departure from the office allows the claims that MG saw her taking the keys to be right, and it also allows the schoolboy's midday and WJ's 12.45 sightings of her car at 123SR to be right.

"When the Ford Sierra was discovered at the north London scrap yard during the Lamplugh reinvestigations of the early 2000s, two hairs were found inside that matched the DNA of Sandra Court. Cannan would have had access to this car when Court was murdered. Despite this, the DNA evidence was not strong enough to bring a prosecution against Cannan for her murder."

Welcome to the thread. The only thing I would say here is to beware hugely of Wikipedia, because the articles there tend to be presented as though factual while actually being heavily influenced by sensational and poorly-researched TV documentaries that are in turn based on other TV documentaries.

I don't know what the source of that hair claim is but JC's car is known from a car park ticket to have been in Southampton that day, and the items SC went missing with were found strewn for several miles along the route you'd take if you were driving back to London from where her body was dumped. If an actual hair from SC were found in his car, then you can place him in her area, and her in his car. That's the kind of detail that has never been established for JC and SJL. So if it is true, as circumstantial cases go that would be pretty compelling. I suspect however that what they have is a partial match meaning the hair matches her but a lot of other people too (which was the case with the alleged SJL DNA).

 

[Cluesleuth]

Given the dynamics of the office that day I did feel she may have left earlier but its documented thats she spent the morning in the office and KR said she had returned from the bank at approx 12.35 and Suzy was on the phone then left. So if police were able to confirm this I am working with that.
However
The sighting of the fiesta as early as 12.00 on stevenage and WJ sighting of 12.40.
Neither of these made mention of the straw hat that we know SJL had on the back shelf. WJ mentioned it was partly obstructing the Mahons Garage but not that it was parked slightly askew. Was it actually SJL's car?


Going back to shorrolds road (AS book pg 77) a witness Richard Turner a 30yr old businessman and car enthusiast was an exception. He told detectives that he had driven up shorrolds between 12.30 and 1pm the day SJL went missing. cars were parked both sides of the rd, he said he remembered in particular three cars that were double parked, one was a white Ford Fiesta and another a Blue BMW it was a model it was a model from the early to mid 1970s similar to a 518 it was parked almost opposite 37. some way behind it was another white Fiesta possibly with someone sitting in it.
WestLondoner did bring up a scenario of a fiesta, false reg plates etc Im not running with such an elaborate plan. But I do think this is looking like an abduction by a number of people 2/3?
So the mention of the 2 Fiestas on Shorrolds around the time could point to another Fiesta being used in the abudtion.
Ive flagged this as I remember BW in interview at the time she thought it was SJL's Fiesta she saw but conceivably it could have been one that looked similar.

I think the earlier sighting on Stevenage was of a different car and the Later sighting was SJL's car.

I think on closer examination of what is documented at the time it will be possible to piece together what happened
MOO

 

[Cherwell]

A general comment about Suzy's car - it had a distinctive numberplate with pronounceable letters, GAN, which would have made it more recognisable and/or memorable. I wonder if BW noticed the numberplate.

I should say that I am someone who doesn't readily recognise cars (makes and models) unless there is something particular about them. I would notice a Fiesta as I've owned them myself.

You see that is really interesting because if she phoned "about dinner time" but "before we opened" - well, which is it? It can't have been at 1pm or even at 12.40, because there's no way that's before they opened - pubs didn't open at 1 o'clock.

They had been closed for stocktaking, so they would probably have opened as soon as that was finished, which could have been at any time.

The only thing I would say here is to beware hugely of Wikipedia, because the articles there tend to be presented as though factual while actually being heavily influenced by sensational and poorly-researched TV documentaries that are in turn based on other TV documentaries.

Yes indeed. My thought was that perhaps only one of these "hairs in car" is true, and that the other report originates in a misunderstanding and has confused the two cases. But IMBW.

 

[Pinkizzy]

I'm sure there was a sighting of SJL wearing her hat and walking down the street somewhere

BBC News | UK | New attempt to solve Lamplugh case

 

[Whitehall 1212]

You see that is really interesting because if she phoned "about dinner time" but "before we opened" - well, which is it? It can't have been at 1pm or even at 12.40, because there's no way that's before they opened - pubs didn't open at 1 o'clock. This potentially casts doubt for me on the supposed 12.40 departure time, because if CV's account here is accurate, it suggests a call followed her departure at more like quarter to twelve, not quarter to one. It's about lunchtime, it's before they opened, a 12 noon departure from the office allows the claims that MG saw her taking the keys to be right, and it also allows the schoolboy's midday and WJ's 12.45 sightings of her car at 123SR to be right.

This is entirely speculative and unconfirmed assumption:

1. We don't know what time the PoW opened for the lunch time trade, although it was probably sometime between 11:00 and 12:00. The earliest a pub could open in 1986 was 11:00, that doesn't mean to say that the PoW didn't open later.

2. What CV says only advises that SJL phoned before the PoW opened.

3. "Dinner time" is what CV means it to be. As far as I know he has not been asked to clarify this, such as it is in the public domain. Is he referring to his understanding of the time he would have dinner (lunch) or the particular pub opening segment as opposed to the evening segment?

4. SJL telephoned the PoW from the Sturgis office. Her colleagues have advised that this was so.

5. So SJL telephoned the PoW from the Sturgis. This does not give us any indication as to the exact time that SJL left Sturgis.

6. All CV's statement informs us is that SJL phoned the PoW sometime between 11:00 and when she left Sturgis but before the pub opened for their dinner (lunch) session.

It's critical to view the information objectively and not to jump on it as supporting a theory without assessing what it does and doesn't say. It is often a key error to install ones own experiences and understanding into what is said by a witness.

To Assume makes an A (not Donkey or Mule) of U and ME

 

[Pinkizzy]

SJL may have been targeted in a crash for cash scam (Stevenage Rd) where there was a slow impact collision. She would have jumped out of the car with keys in hand to confront the troublesome driver. Then who knows what happened after that...

 

[Whitehall 1212]

So the mention of the 2 Fiestas on Shorrolds around the time could point to another Fiesta being used in the abudtion.
Ive flagged this as I remember BW in interview at the time she thought it was SJL's Fiesta she saw but conceivably it could have been one that looked similar.

BW said the female, who she thought was SJL, was driving. A decoy car with what looked liked a male and female in the vehicle.....very elaborate and in the realms of the dark arts courtesy of state intervention!

It is important to note that BW says the females head was turned towards the man, but that she didn't look at the man.

If the vehicle was headed north on Fulham Palace Road towards Hammersmith and BW was cycling south from the cemetery towards Fulham, (opposite direction) then my contention would be that at best BW would only have seen a side profile of the female, as the face was turned away from her.

Additionally, SJL had her hair highlighted the previous Friday. Unless BW had seen SJL since this then she did she make an 'identification' based on SJL's previous hair colour?

I have watched BW being interviewed about what she saw. She does not strike me as someone who is certain of who or what they saw.....somewhat hesitant.

 

[asyousay]

BW said the female, who she thought was SJL, was driving. A decoy car with what looked liked a male and female in the vehicle.....very elaborate and in the realms of the dark arts courtesy of state intervention!

It is important to note that BW says the females head was turned towards the man, but that she didn't look at the man.

If the vehicle was headed north on Fulham Palace Road towards Hammersmith and BW was cycling south from the cemetery towards Fulham, (opposite direction) then my contention would be that at best BW would only have seen a side profile of the female, as the face was turned away from her.

Additionally, SJL had her hair highlighted the previous Friday. Unless BW had seen SJL since this then she did she make an 'identification' based on SJL's previous hair colour?

I have watched BW being interviewed about what she saw. She does not strike me as someone who is certain of who or what they saw.....somewhat hesitant.

She saw enough to identify the hat on the back shelf of the car.


That’s very telling imo


ETA- let me check for a source on this

 

[Whitehall 1212]

SJL may have been targeted in a crash for cash scam (Stevenage Rd) where there was a slow impact collision. She would have jumped out of the car with keys in hand to confront the troublesome driver. Then who knows what happened after that...

1. No visible front end accident damage on the Fiesta

2. Crash for cash was not an established means of fraud in 1986

3. Crash for cash demands sufficient speed to cause enough damage to support exaggerated repair bills and personal injury (whiplash) being suffered.

It always useful to have some evidence to support a hypothesis.