UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

[GTB72]

@Rookie D I think on balance of probabilities and evidence, WJ, was wrong on first sighting. The police were worried at time timing was far too tight. They staged a reconstruction and tried to squeeze to fit, if you factor in queuing, walks on embankment, returning a puppy to a house and getting kids in and out of car...It doesn't work.

It also means the timeline begins to make more sense.

BBM. Was this in the Christopher Berry Dee book? Don't recall it in the AS book?

 

[GTB72]

Hi all.

I have tried to do a rough chronological timeline of what I believe may have transpired on the day of SL's abduction...


12.36pm
SL leaves the office and drives to Stevenage Road in her Fiesta

12.43pm
SL parks in Stevenage Road, where she is meeting Mr Kipper to view some properties. SL knows him and gets into his car. They drive off to Shorrolds Road.

12.45pm-12.50pm
WJ leaves her house and sees the Fiesta

12.49pm
Mr K drops SL off in Shorrolds Road, while he quickly goes to park up, and bring the champagne bottle.

12.50pm
SL is seen standing outside 37SR waiting for Mr K.

12.52pm
Mr K arrives and together they go inside the property.

12.59pm
Mr K and SL leave the property and are heard and seen doing so.

1pm
Mr K and SL are seen standing outside 37SR by another witness

1.03pm
Mr K convinces SL to go and look at more properties in Stevenage Road.

1.10pm
Mr K drives SL back to Stevenage Road, and parks close by. SL and Mr Kipper get out of his car.

1.11pm
SL quickly gets her hat from her own car because she wants to be incognito.

1.12pm
After having just closed her car door, SL and Mr K then walk northwards up Stevenage Road, and are seen by a witness as she turns out of the side street. The witness sees SL wearing her hat.

1.42pm
The same witness returns and then observes SL standing in the front garden of 100 Langthorne Street.
Mr Kipper is seemingly inside the property.

1.55pm - 2pm
A Taxi cab driver who lives close by notices white car parked.

2.15pm
SL and Mr Kipper return to the Fiesta, but instead of parting ways, Mr Kipper tells SL he wants to see more properties. After having spent around an hour looking at properties in and around the area, SL is getting frustrated. They begin to argue.

2.17pm
A man waiting for a Taxi witnesses a furious argument between SL and Mr Kipper

2.20pm
A bearded man gets into a Taxi cab, and tells the driver of the argument he witnessed. He takes him to North End Road.

2.22pm
Mr K and SL are both now sitting in SL's Fiesta. SL drives off with Mr K, so he can run a few errands. These errands include visiting a property in Dorncliffe Road. SL is furious because she really needs to get back to the office, but she can't refuse him.

2.28pm
A witness driving north up Kelvedon Road witnesses a fierce argument between a female driver and her occupant when a white car drives fast and erratically towards him. He has to take evasive action. The white car is then seen indicating right towards the office in Fulham High Road.

2.29pm
Rather than stop at the office, SL turns right into a side road and heads north before turning west along Bishops Road toward Dorncliffe Road.

2.30pm-2.32pm
SL and Mr K stop arguing

2.33pm
SL parks up the Fiesta opposite 10 Dorncliffe Road, and is witnessed by a neighbour living opposite the garage, sitting in the car. Mr K is seen walking down the alley leading to the basement flat of 10 Dorncliffe Road.

2.38pm
Mr K gets back into the car and SL drives off with Mr K in the passenger seat. They head south towards Fulham High Road.

2.42pm
SL's friend BW witnesses SL driving northbound up Fulham Palace Road with Mr K in the car.

2.45pm-3.20pm
Mr K convinces SL to drive him somewhere and crucially, for her to get out of the car.
In this 35 minute time period, SL is abducted and then held captive somewhere locally.

3.24pm
Mr Kipper drives the Fiesta and arrives BACK to Stevenage Road and because he doesn't want to be seen, he simply parks it and gets out without applying the handbrake or locking the door, and crucially he parks it BACK in the same spot that he knew it was parked earlier. i.e. near the garage.

3.25pm
Mr Kipper gets back into his own car and drives off to deal with SL.

3.30pm
WJ arrives back home and notices the car parked opposite. In her mind, it hasn't moved.

5pm
The man who owns the garage drives into it and notices the back of the white car slightly overhanging.

10.01pm
The car is found.



So to summarize, the white fiesta is in Stevenage road between 12.43pm - 2.22pm, and then again from 3.24pm to when it's found.
The only time the car is not in Stevenage Road is between 2.22pm - 3.24pm.


Mr Kipper takes SL to a location that is within a 35 minute timeframe, in TOTAL.

Note that the further away from Stevenage Road that SL is being held, the shorter the time frame Mr Kipper has to get the car back to Stevenage Road before WJ sees it again at 3.30pm.

That means that in order to get the car back BEFORE 3.30pm, SL couldn't have been taken that far from Fulham. This is evidenced by the fact she is seen alive and well circa 2.45pm by her friend BW.

And the reason why Mr Kipper returns to Stevenage Road?

He has to pick his own car up again, and wants everyone to think that the white car hasn't moved.

So,

Thoughts?

Not bad at all. You seem to have incorporated everything there.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

BBM. Was this in the Christopher Berry Dee book? Don't recall it in the AS book?

DV from his interview, some in AS on queuing etc, but from what WJ shared with DV it would have taken even longer. IMO wasn't feasible at start from AS and some police thought so too.

 

[GTB72]

That's right on door.

JC could be very vengeful and plan methodically until the red mist got the better of him, more often than not. He had a campaign going against AR, with some precision. Brought to a halt by other events, but if unchecked, grave harm could have come to her/her family.

If SL had upset him by refusing his trip to Poole on her bank hol Birthday weekend in May (first one) (and we know she DID turn a boyfriend down and went to Wales at the last minute instead with family and cousins) this might have prompted him killing SC exactly then.

It might have meant he put a plan in place about then to get his revenge. Although if behind the 'deal' that might have got in way. Did he think he could extract money from her/borrow? She wouldn't have been able to write a valid cheque on Mon 28th July. Was that a factor?

The above does also point to AL really being only a 'boyfriend' almost for appearances sake by then. How would she easily explain a weekend away?

Probably explains why some of his crimes were not planned well. Just couldn't control his impulses.

I am quite prepared to believe he could be almost unnaturally calm at other times and thus plan methodically.

 

[rvlvr]

SL and Mr Kipper return to the Fiesta, but instead of parting ways, Mr Kipper tells SL he wants to see more properties. After having spent around an hour looking at properties in and around the area, SL is getting frustrated. They begin to argue.

The issue with this, as I think has been mentioned before, is that she couldn’t have shown him more properties, because she wouldn’t have had the keys and particulars. No one is going to buy a house purely from having had a look at it from the outside, and Suzy would’ve known this as an experienced negotiator. JMO, I just can’t see her allowing herself to be strung along in this way.

I too think WJ’s lunchtime sighting is incorrect.

This is why I'm very skeptical about Cannan. From his past history, his crimes were impulsive and/or badly planned and thought out. Driven by desire and impulse.

Indeed. I can imagine him posing as a businessman and stringing her along, but it doesn’t explain why he would’ve killed her. What’s the motive? She’s worked out he’s a phoney? In terms of his reputation he’s nothing to lose, he’s not known to the Putney set, if she even knows any of his contacts they’re likely criminals too, no one’s going to care. Perhaps he was hoping to extract money from her in some way, but evidently he wasn’t skint, he had options (go back to Sutton Coldfield, or head across to Bristol).

If he attacked her in a fit of rage then that’s easy to imagine, but if Suzy was the woman seen arguing with a man by the taxi fare then evidently she isn’t killed there and then, not unless a murder in broad daylight went entirely unnoticed (possible but unlikely). Quite a lot still has to happen between then and whenever and wherever she meets her demise - especially if Suzy and Kipper really did stop by the Dorncliffe Road flat, at which point she’s apparently behind the wheel and presumably not in fear for her life.

 

[GTB72]

DV from his interview, some in AS on queuing etc, but from what WJ shared with DV it would have taken even longer. IMO wasn't feasible at start from AS and some police thought so too.

Thanks. The problem for the Police and ourselves by extention is trying to figure out the discrepancies in the timeline and in the witness statements. There are just so many variables.

Add in DL's interventions and the lead detective taking the huff with her and doing his best to eliminate JC and it's no wonder they never solved it.

 

[Rookie D]

The evidence concerning the chronology of SL's interactions with Mr Kipper, strongly suggest that they were both seen and heard arguing, but then seen post-confrontation being amicable; ergo, when seen by BW; as well as the Dorncliffe Road sighting.

The reason why BW's sighting was wholly dismissed by the police, was because they didn't believe that SL could be seen and heard arguing with her eventual abductor circa 2pm-2.30pm, but then be seen alive and well again in her car later on at 2.45pm.

Of course, in real life, people can argue and then resolve that argument.

What it does imply though, is that SL was comfortable enough with Mr Kipper to be able to argue with him and not be concerned about him killing her in the first instance.

It suggests familiarity with her killer.