UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #3

[WestLondoner]

DV portrays him as deaf and very bumbling, and speaking funny (but then, he's a northerner and DV is a London boy, so he probably did sound funny to him, by gum), so I'd add this to the defence as well.

I would think he has anonymised everything about him, not just his name. If CV's actually 6 feet tall, aggressive and 19 stone, he's a better fit in several ways, including for the seat position in her car.

DV does not say what he thinks happened at the PoW, but I would be wary of dismissing suggestions based on personal incredulity. I am personally incredulous that anyone would join the police in order to rape and murder women, for example, but it has recently happened. Stranger killings are jaw dropping inthemselves, yet they happen.

I am similarly incredulous that someone like SJL would have noticed much less been taken in by a gormless and ignorant little weed like JC, for example. He comes across in CBD's book as an abject, utter tool, and we know SJL liked tall, well-heeled professional types, and moved in circles that featured the real article. Staff at the video dating agency met him while he was trying to be charming and they saw through the oily little creep. But that's not a reason to think it wasn't him (there are other, better reasons).

 

[Pinkizzy]

I would think he has anonymised everything about him, not just his name. If CV's actually 6 feet tall, aggressive and 19 stone, he's a better fit in several ways, including for the seat position in her car.

DV does not say what he thinks happened at the PoW, but I would be wary of dismissing suggestions based on personal incredulity. I am personally incredulous that anyone would join the police in order to rape and murder women, for example, but it has recently happened. Stranger killings are jaw dropping inthemselves, yet they happen.

I am similarly incredulous that someone like SJL would have noticed much less been taken in by a gormless and ignorant little weed like JC, for example. He comes across in CBD's book as an abject, utter tool, and we know SJL liked tall, well-heeled professional types, and moved in circles that featured the real article. Staff at the video dating agency met him while he was trying to be charming and they saw through the oily little creep. But that's not a reason to think it wasn't him (there are other, better reasons).

I think AS described CV as short and fat, which suggests a height of 5ft 8

 

[Whitehall 1212]

He comes across in CBD's book as an abject, utter tool, and we know SJL liked tall, well-heeled professional types, and moved in circles that featured the real article. Staff at the video dating agency met him while he was trying to be charming and they saw through the oily little creep.

SJL was very ambitious and was seeking opportunities to network in the right circles and make lots of money.

Irrespective of how slimy we know JC is, it is very likely that in their initial meetings SJL would have been disarmed by his faux charm and eager by the networking and financial opportunities she believed he could offer.

When we meet people we look for the best in them. If they are well presented and can converse well then we warm to them. What we don't do instinctively is to assess people on the likelihood that they are violent rapist or serial killer.

<modsnip - discuss the post, not the poster>

 

[WestLondoner]

I think AS described CV as short and fat, which suggests a height of 5ft 8

Which I hazard means he's neither short nor fat, any more than his real initials are 'CV'...

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Which I hazard means he's neither short nor fat, any more than his real initials are 'CV'...

Guessing rarely works, particularly in criminal investigation. Obtaining and following the evidence is the only effective route to success.

 

[Pinkizzy]

Which I hazard means he's neither short nor fat, any more than his real initials are 'CV'...

Apparently, he had a beer gut and had to push back car seats to fit his tum between the steering wheel and the seat

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Apparently, he had a beer gut and had to push back car seats to fit his tum between the steering wheel and the seat

Don't knock it 'till you've tried it. Lashings and lashing of (ginger) beer usually does the trick

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If SJL had gone to get her stuff back from teh pub that lunchtime, you'd think she'd have taken her bag to put them in.

It's going to be a dead giveaway if she rocks back into the office clutching a chequebook, diary and postcard and she would not want to leave that in the Fiesta all afternoon or it could go walkies again or be peeked at by the lad who used her car to go to properties to take pictures.

Also, both the relief landlord and his wife told police the pub was busy that afternoon, and unless there is a giant conspiracy and they told a rather stupid and checkable lie, the fact is that if SJL had gone there, she would have been seen by all the blokes in there propping up the bar that lunchtime. She was a very attractive woman. They would have been dudes in a pub. They'd have noticed her. And the relief landlord would have been busy running the pub. Yet he has time to lure her to the pub with no one noticing, for which he would have to arrange to meet her somehow where she isn't seen by the others around the place, murder her in a cellar, possibly after raping her, clean himself up and move her body into a crawl space sharpish, then trot back up the stairs to serve London pride to some old blokes reading the Racing Post? As if nothing had happened. Then excuses himself again, and off he is again to dump her car, which he probably would not have seen her arrive in or know where she parked it, (assuming he had the foresight to realize there must have been a car--he's a very calm offender--takes the keys off her before he drags her body into the cellar crawl space, or he'd have to go rummaging around it to find them) and back to the pub.

All of these are fair enough points and I agree with them as at this point all theories are still on the table but the fact of the matter is that none of it was actually checked or verified so it's all speculation, including my own speculation.

I even started to wonder if SJL got herself into something so deep she took her own life as there's so little to go on in all this sketchyness.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

This x100


I posted something similar on here. Whichever you look at it he would of murdered somebody and gone back to pulling pints and yet nobody noticed his behavior as being off. Nobody reported him vanishing for hours at a time. The Police was on his doorstep as well collecting Suzy’s stuff and again he raised no red flags.


It simply doesn’t make any sense IMO

We don't know if people thought he was moody / off or had even disappeared for a couple of hours as that whole line of enquiry was never explored. And nobody knew him as he was a relief manager so there wasn't a reference for his baseline behaviour or moods.

Many bar managers I've worked with take it easy and dip in and out during the day time as it's the nights when they need to spring into action and deal with all kinds of rowdy madness and chaotic crowded custom.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

but the fact of the matter is that none of it was actually checked or verified so it's all speculation,

The police went to the PoW to establish if SJL had been there. It's surprising that people sometimes lie to police, particularly if they have committed a serious crime!

The police will have been assessing the veracity of what CV said and observing what he said, how he said it and the body language he was giving off. They will have checked his account with others to see if they tallied

This was a line of enquiry for the police. They followed it and eliminated it.

Police don't rock up and ask for SJL's property and say "she didn't turn up then"? "Oh no guv'ner" and then go on their merry way.

Once again it's the lack of awareness of how such investigations are conducted now and 1986, because interviewing witnesses is no different....it's bread and butter detective work, that leads to comments that the police didn't check or verify what people told them.

It's absolute nonsense.

 

[Cherwell]

Irrespective of how slimy we know JC is, it is very likely that in their initial meetings SJL would have been disarmed by his faux charm and eager by the networking and financial opportunities she believed he could offer.

Just to be clear - there's no evidence that they ever did meet, is there?

And nobody knew him as he was a relief manager so there wasn't a reference for his baseline behaviour or moods.

I thought I read that he had been there for a three month training period before taking over as relief manager.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Just to be clear - there's no evidence that they ever did meet, is there?



I thought I read that he had been there for a three month training period before taking over as relief manager.

There is no evidence they met. However, to put it in context I was responding to @WestLondonder who was saying that SJL would not have taken a second look at JC. I was explaining why this would not have been the case.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Just to be clear - there's no evidence that they ever did meet, is there?



I thought I read that he had been there for a three month training period before taking over as relief manager.

1. To be a licensee there are background police checks
2. His temperament and suitability will have been assessed during his recruitment and training

 

[Cherwell]

1. To be a licensee there are background police checks
2. His temperament and suitability will have been assessed during his recruitment and training

Yes, but I was replying to the suggestion that nobody at the pub knew him. If he'd been there three months then the regulars would have got to know him.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Yes, but I was replying to the suggestion that nobody at the pub knew him. If he'd been there three months then the regulars would have got to know him.

Do you think that in a SW London pub the so called 'regular's' will engage in more than the odd bit of social chit-chat with the landlord or relief-landlord?

Certainly small country pubs are very different, when you live in the village and the pub can be the heart of the community.

I think it's a fallacy to apply this to the PoW. I grew up in SW London at this time and had 2-3 regular pubs. I can't ever say that the landlords of the pubs would stand at the end of the bar and have a drink with the punters and be all sociable and matey.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Yes, but I was replying to the suggestion that nobody at the pub knew him. If he'd been there three months then the regulars would have got to know him.

Apologies, I'm now unsure, I seemed to think it was a week for some reason. Anyhow if it was three months then he and his wife would certainly have had their own separate living space above the pub. Unless they were housed at a different location and that hasn't been mentioned?

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Apologies, I'm now unsure, I seemed to think it was a week for some reason. Anyhow if it was three months then he and his wife would certainly have had their own separate living space above the pub. Unless they were housed at a different location and that hasn't been mentioned?

How is this relevant when the police established that SJL hadn't been to the PoW?

 

[Cherwell]

Do you think that in a SW London pub the so called 'regular's' will engage in more than the odd bit of social chit-chat with the landlord or relief-landlord?

Certainly small country pubs are very different, when you live in the village and the pub can be the heart of the community.

I think it's a fallacy to apply this to the PoW. I grew up in SW London at this time and had 2-3 regular pubs. I can't ever say that the landlords of the pubs would stand at the end of the bar and have a drink with the punters and be all sociable and matey.

I couldn't really say, but I have a friend who happens to live quite near the Prince of Wales - a couple of streets down the road. He is very much a pub man and has regular haunts. I spent a day with him once and we went to a couple of pubs (can't remember the names but not the PoW) and he was on first name terms with the staff in both.

But the point was whether people would notice a change of mood, eg a normally cheerful personality suddenly acting tense and taciturn. I think some might.

But to be clear, I don't think Suzy went to the pub that day. Once she knew that her stuff was in safe hands, I think the obvious course was to pick it up on the way home.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

We don't know what she did or didn't do, so all cards and all queries are still legitimately on the table, IMO very much this one. It was certainly a location she intended to head to the pub and retrieve her possessions, that's fact.

I think it's legitimate to query whether there are areas that lacked rigorous investigation and IMO this is one of them. Since most likely the police were looking at more immediate people and most especially for a sophisticated predator and stalker, Mr Kipper, pretending to buy a property, I'm sure they would have instantly ruled out a gruff northern overweight pub manager or anything to do with the PoW or any of its customers or staff whatsoever.

There's no point to keep repeating myself, it's redundant, but plenty of other people also see it that way.

It's not OK for anyone here to keep trying to shut down legitimate questions, considerations, and queries. Nobody knows what happened to SJL and that's what we're here debating.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

We don't know what she did or didn't do, so all cards and all queries are still legitimately on the table, IMO very much this one. It was certainly a location she intended to head to the pub and retrieve her possessions, that's fact.

I think it's legitimate to query whether there are areas that lacked rigorous investigation and IMO this is one of them. Since most likely the police were looking at more immediate people and most especially for a sophisticated predator and stalker, Mr Kipper, pretending to buy a property, I'm sure they would have instantly ruled out a gruff northern overweight pub manager or anything to do with the PoW or any of its customers or staff whatsoever.

There's no point to keep repeating myself, it's redundant, but plenty of other people also see it that way.

It's not OK for anyone here to keep trying to shut down legitimate questions, considerations, and queries. Nobody knows what happened to SJL and that's what we're here debating.

The PoW was one of a number of lines of enquiry.

To fall into the trap that police were only looking at Shorrolds Road and later Stevenage Road is incorrect.

The police explored other lines of enquiry in relation to SJL's activities, where she may go and who with.

The police made the PoW a priority, going there the morning after her disappearance. They satisfied themselves that SJL had not been to the PoW.

Now how SJL's property came to be 'lost' in the first place and found on the PoW steps is very much a hot potato, which may have a bearing on this case.