UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #3

[WestLondoner]

The problem is the timings wouldn’t match to it being MG? The office wouldn’t of become alarmed until 3ish so how can it of be MG at 1pm?

HR got the time wrong like everything else.

 

[WestLondoner]

Good logic, and what about the other witnesses who saw a couple outside 37 SR at around 1.00pm, which of these is the most reliable?

Then there are two men in a car and two Fiestas seen in SR. These are always discounted too.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

It's not SJL and MG, it's SF and MG.

No.....MG went to Shorrolds Road and spoke with HR later who described the man to him.

Are you saying that HR described MG to MG?

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Then there are two men in a car and two Fiestas seen in SR. These are always discounted too.

Not discounted...just not corroborated independently.

We have no idea how the police viewed the veracity of the statements or the witnesses.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

HR got the time wrong like everything else.

HR's account of the time will have been a significant element of his statement.

HR was obviously able to provide sufficiently good reason to support the time, for police to be confident in publicising it.

It's basics when taking statements!

 

[asyousay]

Good logic, and what about the other witnesses who saw a couple outside 37 SR at around 1.00pm, which of these is the most reliable?

Yes exactly at the time Suzy would of been at the property. Not only that it’s a Man and Woman which would be Suzy and the client.

 

[Cluesleuth]

Good logic, and what about the other witnesses who saw a couple outside 37 SR at around 1.00pm, which of these is the most reliable?

Im trying to find out a bit more about Doyle..
Have you done any work on any of the witnesses I would be eager to hear from anyone who has.

Whats important here is to get to the truth you have to get behind the story, we need to get as much info on people as possible.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I've seen the various videos on Shirley Banks and I have the book. I agree with Richard Banks' friend's comment that once the car had been found, the case was presented to police on a plate. By his account, there was a large degree of police incompetence shown in this case too.

To say this shows a lack of awareness of the investigative process and the constraints that the police operate under.

Whatever I say, will make no difference because you DON'T want to understand the realities involved.

Richard Bank's friend falls into exactly the same trap....that JC having the car is proof enough of abduction The fact is that it is not.....not by a long way..... because of the burden of proof that is required in criminal trials....'guilty beyond ALL reasonable doubt'.

It is that threshold that the evidence MUST reach.

I have endeavoured to aid your understanding and provide a link to the definitive source material.

 

[Konstantin]

He was given restricted access to the police investigation. It is not unusual for selected respected journalists who are researching for books to be afforded such access.

I don't recall any great revelations courtesy of the police, just some additional material on the information already in the public domain.

He didn't have access to the diary, postcard or cheque book. Other eiminated lines of enquiry/possible suspects were not discussed.

I just read the Thief, his wife and the canoe by David Leigh and Tony Hutchinson. Leigh is a journalist and Hutchinson is the retired cop who dealt with the Darwin fraud case. While the case is long over, it seems that Leigh was given access to police interviews of Darwin, through Hutchinson who conducted them. Most certainly because Leigh was instrumental in persuading Darwin's wife to come back to UK and face the music.

AS is a different case to this rather since SJL case is still open and was very much so when he wrote his book very shortly after events. I was fascinated by how much access he did get although yes, no revelations (he does go into some detail abot SJL's personal life, and of course he had to edit out much of this at the insistence of DL, which I think is a shame and I wonder what he did leave out. Of course the police will know all these details, anyway). While Leigh is a tabloid journalist AS wrote for broadsheets so (in my opinion haha) is more reliable. Most of it is very good, although he is a bit hazy on some details that perhaps he didn't think were important. He gives me the impression he thought DL was interfering too much (she was...I feel so sorry for her though, she was doing what she thought best).

 

[Konstantin]

We need to consider if the vendor had provided additional local contact details e.g. parent, partner, whilst he was overseas.

This alternative may also have had a key. It may be this key that was obtained to enable the police to enter later that evening.

JMO

The neighbour might also have had a key in case there was some issues that happened e.g. on a Sunday and needed someone to pop round and deal. The fact is that we don't know. But the police did get in and possibly also MG (because tbh if I was worried my colleague might be injured on the floor of an empty house she was locked in I'd jolly well break the door down myself. I wouldn't faff around all afternoon going there twice. That would be either stupid or callous, we know he thought there was a good chance she might have been there or he would not bother going there twice.)

 

[Konstantin]

MG spoke directly to HR. It was MG that HR provided his first description to. This is in AS

Now why would HR describe a chap who spoke to him a few hours later?

Yeah I think this theory can be put to bed. I don't think it holds water. The police knew what MG looked like as they literally met him. For this to be true they have to be incapable of investigating whether the sun came up that morning.

 

[Konstantin]

Im trying to find out a bit more about Doyle..
Have you done any work on any of the witnesses I would be eager to hear from anyone who has.

Whats important here is to get to the truth you have to get behind the story, we need to get as much info on people as possible.

There might be more details in news reports from the time if you have access to news archives?

Sorry for all the posts btw, I realised I should have used the multiquote feature. Duh.

 

[Cluesleuth]

DBM

 

[Eastend Eagle]

Im trying to find out a bit more about Doyle..
Have you done any work on any of the witnesses I would be eager to hear from anyone who has.

Whats important here is to get to the truth you have to get behind the story, we need to get as much info on people as possible.

Who's Doyle?

 

[asyousay]

WestLondoner posted this in a earlier thread



HR's statement
HR lived at 35 Shorrolds, next door to the house where SJL wrote in an appointment. He was 58 in 7/1986. He said - per the police press conference - that "he saw a fair-haired lady and this man [the pencil sketch of 'Mr Kipper'] leaving the property at about ten past one. And that is the last time she has been seen.’



So this also ties in with her hair colour change that weekend. I just can not fathom this being anybody but her and a client.

 

[EddietheEagle]

I agree, IMO the photofit is definitely MG.

Look at MG when he's speaking towards the camera in the Crimewatch reconstruction, his features & hair are exactly like the photofit.

I don't agree here. Mark Gurden has curly hair which is not combed back. It is allowed to fall naturally. By contrast, the photofit shows a head of carefully coiffed hair, sleeked back and with not a single strand resting on the forehead.

 

[WiseOwl]

I don't agree here. Mark Gurden has curly hair which is not combed back. It is allowed to fall naturally. By contrast, the photofit shows a head of carefully coiffed hair, sleeked back and with not a single strand resting on the forehead.

Blimey Eddie, you're not a hairdresser by any chance?!!

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Have we mentioned this before but 'kipper' in old slang means 'a young adult who cannot afford to move away from home' apparently.

Would SJL know that? Is it maybe a joke in estate agency? Have we discussed this before?

Was SJL going to meet someone fairly young, a close friend maybe, who was frustrated at still living at home with their parents and looking for advice to buy a first home - in which case if related to an actual property would surely need to be a studio / one or two bed maximum?

Could that be the person who was leaning on her?

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Does JC look like this man to you?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/tv/2021/03/06/TELEMMGLPICT000003331962_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqqVzuuqpFlyLIwiB6NTmJwfSVWeZ_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.jpeg?imwidth=960

It's a photofit of a man seen in 37SR. It's seen less often than the HR derived sketch, probably because claims that Mr Kipper was JC are debunked by this photofit which does not resemble him at all.

Meanwhile here are the HR derived sketch and MG, taken from the CW reconstruction:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52126607958_a3085b100d_b.jpg

In my opinion HR's 'Mr Kipper' looks nothing like JC or the photofit, but does look like MG, who we know definitely did go to 37SR.

IMO they look like MG to me and since he went to 37 SR then it seems quite obviously an error IMO for anyone to circulate these pics and say they're the perpetrator.

 

[Cluesleuth]

Don't forget that DV has an agenda to put over for his book, and will tailor his narrative to fit with this. Also apart from the bank clock all other timing have to be approximate. No one will be precise when they are going about the daily routines.
We can't be certain exactly when SJL left the Stugiss office as they had no clock and unless her colleagues were actively monitoring what SJL was doing they wouldn't have noticed the exact time she left.
For WJ to be correct SJL's car was not there when she took the dog for a walk and appeared while she was walking the dog.
In this case SJL or the perpetrator would have literally missed being seen by WJ by seconds.

I agree people wont be clock watching unless they had agreed to meet someone at a certain time.

Sturgis Office may not have an office clock but Im sure that most if not all the staff would have been wearing a watch in 1986. Estate Agency is an occupation that requires negotiators to make and attend appointments in between those appointments they have a set time to do other things, your working day is time managed.
If as we are led to believe SJL spent the morning in the office and did not attend another apt until she left for the 12.45 one she would not have reason to leave before 12.30.- She is reported as leaving at 12.40.

WJ told DV that she had not been spending the time as usual in the kitchen it was school holidays and was probably in the back garden she had a 4 and 8 yr old, she and the children had taken the dog for a walk around the block leaving by the back gate into an alleyway at the back of Millshot close. It was only on her return she noticed the car parked across RM drive to his garage.
Its entirely possible this was the car seen at 12.00 by the schoolboy. And it wasnt SJL's car at all.
Did police choose to accept her sighting because 12.45 it would be the an accepted time SJL might have arrived there after leaving the office?
Its common in abductions carried out by a group of people to use the same model cars and people dressed/looking similar to throws the investigation into a state of confusion as eye witness report vehicles and people in slightly differing locations within that area and in a stated time frame.

If this is what happened in this case it has proved to have have done just that

Im sceptical of WJ's account for a number of reasons.
JMO