UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #3

[WestLondoner]

“Whether you saw something that you thought was unconnected at the time or you felt under pressure to protect someone you knew – it is not too late.

Second paragraph. Does that possibly indicate a duo?

Or a couple.

If KF came forward and said I need to talk to you about my ex, CV, I wonder what the police would do? Tell her to jog on because it was JC?

 

[asyousay]

Or a couple.

If KF came forward and said I need to talk to you about my ex, CV, I wonder what the police would do? Tell her to jog on because it was JC?

No ask for evidence to make sure she wasn’t a bitter ex-wife one would assume.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

The things that were odd about the car were the seat position, the handbrake being off, the purse in the door pocket, the passenger door being locked, the driver door being unlocked, and its being parked at a careless angle to the kerb overlapping a garage entrance. All this bespeaks haste. It's certainly possible that she could drive a car with the seat in the wrong position but it would surely have to depend how wrong. I literally can't fit into a car whose seat is positioned to suit Mrs WestLondoner. If she were dashing out of the car, perhaps pursued by her passenger, you have to wonder why he would then bother to lock the passenger door.

AS is quite good on this and describes what would have alternatively been required for SJL to have been dragged out of her car by a male passenger - across the driver's seat presumably given the locked passenger door.

It's a good one to bring up. Everything points to a short errand - not taking a handbag etc - meaning wherever she went was near enough that her car could be got to Stevenage perhaps as early as 2. Whoever did this worked fast.

Passenger door being locked is the oddest thing to me. As I can envisage a scenario where possibly habitually SJL drives the car with the seat pushed back because that's how the blokes in the office leave it. Having agreed to drive the perpetrator somewhere then realising she was in danger, pulled up and fled the car. However, that being the case, the dangerous passenger would have had to dash after her and overcome her and ... then what? Go where? And why would the passenger seat door be locked.

There could also be a scenario where someone has lured SJL to an emergency response to a situation whereby she's driven at full pelt and fled the car to get to them, not caring about the handbrake, her purse, or the quality of parking. That would mean whoever lured her lived right there.

Neither of these scenarios seem very likely at all but I am basically opening up all options in my thinking.

The passenger seat door being locked and the seat pushed back does certainly imply that IF SJL drove a perpetrator to a location, they subsequently both left the car and only one of them returned to it. Serious harm cannot have occurred to her inside the car or there'd be all sorts of evidence. Also her body would not have been transported in it, she was elsewhere.

So it's always the same two questions:

1) did SJL attend a location where she was invited / lured inside, killed and (temporarily or permanently) hidden, then the perpetrator hastily got her car away from the scene?

2) OR did SJL drive a perpetrator somewhere, not too far away, possibly involving a struggle and issues with losing control of the car en route, to a location where she was killed and hidden, then the perpetrator dumped her car within the same area they had never left or returned it to? Clearly the car couldn't be left dumped at the scene of the crime as it would create a connection to the perp but it would have been parked up for some time (very high risk of being seen) and in the cover up why wouldn't the perp then drive it many miles away and dump it in woodland or abandoned premises or drive it into a lake?

In terms of which is the most straightforward (occam's razor) it points to scenario 1 simply because scenario 2 is disorganised, very complicated, frenetic, and makes least sense. To me. MOO JMO.

 

[asyousay]

LE will know a ton of stuff not in the public domain so if anybody comes forward with information they shouldn’t know then that would be a good sign they are telling the truth.



How many killers waste resources on claiming they murdered people when they haven’t?! A lot of these people simply love the attention they receive from the games they play . That’s why even if guilty JC won’t admit to SP because he likes the cat and mouse of it.


IMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

The Wikipedia article on JC alludes to a series of unsolved sexual assaults carried out in the Midlands in the late 70s to 1980 in which a man went to houses that were listed for sale and attacked lone women owners. The article compares this MO to the SJL case, and argues that the link is JC, as he was living in Birmingham at the time.

This is all very well, but two obvious points arise. One is that this attacker assaulted the home owners, whereas 'Mr Kipper' apparently assaulted an estate agent. The other obvious point is the question of whether JC was ever put on an ID parade in front of any of the victims of those assaults. As written, it looks like a point against him, but for all we know, the Birmingham attacker was a fat six-foot Asian man. Putting the weedy 5'8" JC on an ID parade would then result in his elimination from being considered for any of those offences, which would knock away a plank of the circumstantial case against him.

The failure of the police to put him on any ID parade for any other offences is just bewildering - unless they knew perfectly well that to do so would undermine rather than reinforce their case.

JC is such a little weed I can't think how he'd overpower most women. He'd certainly need to be armed.

If JC is a weedy 5ft 8 then he surely wouldn't have needed to push the seat of SJL's car back - in the way that I thought it was described as being significantly pushed back, as she was 5ft 6.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

There was definitely press pieces back at the start when the police mentioned the possibility that 2 people were involved.

Two things come to mind. The recent link to one of the Railway Killing duo to James Galway.

And a statement made by Met just a year or two ago, along the lines if you are intimidated or harbouring someone it's not too late to come forward ....

IMO if she came to harm at the PoW then both those statements could be relevant.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Or a couple.

If KF came forward and said I need to talk to you about my ex, CV, I wonder what the police would do? Tell her to jog on because it was JC?

It's starting to look that way.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

LE will know a ton of stuff not in the public domain so if anybody comes forward with information they shouldn’t know then that would be a good sign they are telling the truth.



How many killers waste resources on claiming they murdered people when they haven’t?! A lot of these people simply love the attention they receive from the games they play . That’s why even if guilty JC won’t admit to SP because he likes the cat and mouse of it.


IMO

Also JC likely to be deceased at some point not too far away and then what? The police going to say our main official suspect passed away, case closed?

 

[WestLondoner]

If JC is a weedy 5ft 8 then he surely wouldn't have needed to push the seat of SJL's car back - in the way that I thought it was described as being significantly pushed back, as she was 5ft 6.

Really interesting point I'd never considered. Was the seat pushed back too far for either SJL or JC to have driven it?!!

 

[WestLondoner]

It's starting to look that way.

Actually, I reckon if CV came forward and said "It was me", the police would still say "No it wasn't, it was JC..."

 

[WestLondoner]

Also JC likely to be deceased at some point not too far away and then what? The police going to say our main official suspect passed away, case closed?

I doubt it. For one thing, they could be criticised for closing a case when they've never found a body. For another, if the case were closed so it's no longer an active investigation, it could be FOIAd and the files disclosed. We'd then all know what the police know. I don't think this will ever be closed.

I've got a feeling the Jack the Ripper murders are not closed, although only writers and amateur sleuths are still "working" on it.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Really interesting point I'd never considered. Was the seat pushed back too far for either SJL or JC to have driven it?!!

Wikipedia entry states clearly that the seat was pushed back so far there is no possibility SJL could have driven. That pretty much excludes JC too then. How tall is CV?

Another source, book by Grahame McGredy-Hunt, states seat pushed FULLY BACK - well how far back is that? At least to accommodate someone 6ft?

 

[Cluesleuth]

The Graham Mcgredy-Hunt book describing the July 2000 Crimewatch footage, said it occured in Kelvedon Rd before it's junction with Fulham Road.

From memory this incident was quite distressing, it had SL in her fiesta grapling at the steering wheel with a male passenger. The white van then swerves to avoid a collision.

Obviously as it was on Crimewatch, the police have given weight and credibility to the van diver's statement. And obviously it reflects some type of abduction / car-jacking. This may have orginated in either in Radipole Rd or Shorrolds Rd, progressing into Kelvedon Rd.

Again be great if July 2000 Crimewatch was unearthed ....

I wonder if the van driver ever gave a discription of the male?

 

[asyousay]

Where has JC height been reported?


Just watching YouTube videos and AL comes across well even though he claims the diary went missing Friday which is confusing. I mean the fact we don’t know facts like that 100% because some say Sunday and her her boyfriend (Ex) is convinced Friday.

 

[Terryb808]

Really interesting point I'd never considered. Was the seat pushed back too far for either SJL or JC to have driven it?!!

Yes this is a point I overlooked, AL tried the seat position, the police asked him to do so. This would tend to suggest that it was not all the way back as DV indicated.
On this basis the police must know approximately the height of the driver and if it could have been SJL herself.
If we take a leap of faith and Say that they’d not continue with JC if the seat fitted someone over 6ft. But it’s a very big leap.

 

[WestLondoner]

AL is 6' plus. 6'2"? I can't remember where I read this, dammit. But apparently our Suze liked 'em tall.

I am pretty sure it's in CBD that JC's height is mentioned, plus when you look at that massively creepy dating video, you can see he's a little runt with weedy little pencil arms and shoulders. It is not at all clear to me that he'd be SJL's type. He would find it very easy to buy shirts and suits: if it fits a coat hanger, it would fit him. He bullies women rather than men for a reason.

CV is heavily disguised in DV's book - as his name's been changed, I am sure his appearance would be too, else what's the point. He is described by DV as short and stout with a moustache, so he could be tall and thin with a bald head and a beard - no way to know.

Blimey, it would be fascinating if AL were slightly too tall to fit the seat position, and JC way too short. You would then have two marks of height from which you could predict the likely height of the driver. He'd be 6' tall. Blimey.

 

[asyousay]

AL is 6' plus. 6'2"? I can't remember where I read this, dammit. But apparently our Suze liked 'em tall.

I am pretty sure it's in CBD that JC's height is mentioned, plus when you look at that massively creepy dating video, you can see he's a little runt with weedy little pencil arms and shoulders. It is not at all clear to me that he'd be SJL's type. He would find it very easy to buy shirts and suits: if it fits a coat hanger, it would fit him. He bullies women rather than men for a reason.

CV is heavily disguised in DV's book - as his name's been changed, I am sure his appearance would be too, else what's the point. He is described by DV as short and stout with a moustache, so he could be tall and thin with a bald head and a beard - no way to know.

Blimey, it would be fascinating if AL were slightly too tall to fit the seat position, and JC way too short. You would then have two marks of height from which you could predict the likely height of the driver. He'd be 6' tall. Blimey.

It depends I guess on if Suzy had a type. AL is obviously very middle class and good breeding. I can pick up on that within 5 seconds of that video.


JC was privately educated and from the outside was super Charming and good looking ( I don’t see that) so no doubt he could sell himself and had been around people in that setting.


IMO MOO

 

[Cluesleuth]

If JC is a weedy 5ft 8 then he surely wouldn't have needed to push the seat of SJL's car back - in the way that I thought it was described as being significantly pushed back, as she was 5ft 6.

It would be helpful if we knew for sure if it was moved by anyone after it had been parked on Stevenage.
How tall was the garage owner?

 

[Pinkizzy]

It would be helpful if we knew for sure if it was moved by anyone after it had been parked on Stevenage.
How tall was the garage owner?

I guess the garage owner released the handbrake and pushed the car

 

[Cluesleuth]

I guess the garage owner released the handbrake and pushed the car

If he left it with the handbrake off and didnt leave it in gear wouldnt there be a possibilty that it could move forward or backwards again?