UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #3

[ruby925]

Can I ask did you use Sturgis estate agents?

ha ha, no, I didn't live in London....

 

[WestLondoner]

Right so I was gonna make a post knocking DV and his lack of action but I have decided to be more productive here.



He obviously can not just produce a body. But the police have told him to put up or shut up.

So if any of you was DV what steps would you now take to get around a lack of evidence??

I'm not sure what he can do. If I were the pub operator I'd certainly refuse permission for a search, because for me there's no upside at all, whatever its outcome. If I were Network Rail, I'd probably ask whether there's any official endorsement of this line of inquiry, and if not I'd wonder why I need to bother.

His best bet is probably to write a reasonably succinct letter to the Mayor and / or Home Office, who oversee the police, setting out the reasoning, and inviting them to apply pressure to the Met on the basis that their own theory stands no chance of producing a conviction. If he could get a family member to do so he'd be better positioned still, but the family must so bored with all the loonies (John West indeed - FFS).

The worst possible outcome for the plod would be for a crowd-funded private search to find her body but in so doing contaminate the crime scene. Not only would they then have failed to solve it, but their refusal would have caused the chances of a conviction to dwindle to zero, because some freelancer went and searched for himself.

The thing is that after all this time it may be impossible ever to establish how she died, or how she got there. As with the case that prefaces his book, even if she is now found, there is no guarantee of a trial.

 

[Terryb808]

I'm not sure what he can do. If I were the pub operator I'd certainly refuse permission for a search, because for me there's no upside at all, whatever its outcome. If I were Network Rail, I'd probably ask whether there's any official endorsement of this line of inquiry, and if not I'd wonder why I need to bother.

His best bet is probably to write a reasonably succinct letter to the Mayor and / or Home Office, who oversee the police, setting out the reasoning, and inviting them to apply pressure to the Met on the basis that their own theory stands no chance of producing a conviction. If he could get a family member to do so he'd be better positioned still, but the family must so bored with all the loonies (John West indeed - FFS).

The worst possible outcome for the plod would be for a crowd-funded private search to find her body but in so doing contaminate the crime scene. Not only would they then have failed to solve it, but their refusal would have caused the chances of a conviction to dwindle to zero, because some freelancer went and searched for himself.

The thing is that after all this time it may be impossible ever to establish how she died, or how she got there. As with the case that prefaces his book, even if she is now found, there is no guarantee of a trial.

I agree in principle, however, DV has looked into the void and taken a photo. Back when the pub landlord was being helpful I'd have (as I've said before) arranged to revisit with protective clothing. Once you find something related to SJL you stop and the police then have to get involved.
Again, its been said before that the embankment is a more likely location and could be searched with the use of trained dogs. If its as overgrown as has been indicated, dogs are the only way you'll find anything with any degree of efficiency.
On a negative front the police have in the past ignored any attempt by government officials to interfere with any of their cases and I can't see this changing. Get the Mayor on side and you might just have a chance?

 

[asyousay]

Yes I would of thought getting the media on side would help as well. The problem is he has nothing substantial here.


Appealing to the family and trying to get them on side as well which he hasn’t managed this far it seems.



When the family and the police won’t listen then it makes you wonder why. I assume it’s because they know a lot more than they have let on imo

 

[Terryb808]

Yes I would of thought getting the media on side would help as well. The problem is he has nothing substantial here.


Appealing to the family and trying to get them on side as well which he hasn’t managed this far it seems.



When the family and the police won’t listen then it makes you wonder why. I assume it’s because they know a lot more than they have let on imo

It could be that they’ve not been given the full story behind DV’s narrative. His former employer seems to have a very negative attitude towards him.
It’s a shame because IMO RL is such a nice guy that I feel he and his family deserve to be able to put SJL to rest.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I remember the publicity re Suzy's disappearance, her face was everywhere, always accompanied by the reference to Mr Kipper. I find it unbelievable that the staff in the POW were not talking about it as there was that link to her belongings and that the permanent pub landlord was not briefed about it on his return.
Incidentally, when I sold my property a year later, I was not present for any viewings as I felt vulnerable directly as a result of the SJL case. For those of you not around at the time, SJL's disappearance/abduction was a huge news story, shocking because of the circumstances and then no real leads, no body etc...everyone knew about it.

I also remember it clearly too exactly how you say and it remained a huge story here in London for many many years - estate agent abducted by Mr Kipper who she showed a flat to. There was no other narrative and it was presented as if factual. It defies belief the staff and customers of PoW weren't obsessing over it and discussing it - of course they would have been and also to not tell the regular manager is very odd.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Right so I was gonna make a post knocking DV and his lack of action but I have decided to be more productive here.



He obviously can not just produce a body. But the police have told him to put up or shut up.

So if any of you was DV what steps would you now take to get around a lack of evidence??

If I truly believed I was correct in my detection - I would make more noise, garner more publicity, and seek to challenge the police's decision through any formal / legal routes possible and try to find some influential support or backing. The problem is, people will say 'oh he's just trying to sell copies of his book'.

 

[Terryb808]

If I truly believed I was correct in my detection - I would make more noise, garner more publicity, and seek to challenge the police's decision through any formal / legal routes possible and try to find some influential support or backing. The problem is, people will say 'oh he's just trying to sell copies of his book'.

It’s frustrating, however, you need to look at the success rate when anyone has challenged the Mets stance on a particular crime.
It make depressing reading, they ignore everyone, that included Teresa May (then Home Secretary), the report she initiated took 8 years to complete. It’s conclusion was as damming as you can get and it was ignored.
So DV has very little chance of moving them from the JC did it position, especially when you consider they’ve officially said he’s the only suspect.

 

[asyousay]

It’s frustrating, however, you need to look at the success rate when anyone has challenged the Mets stance on a particular crime.
It make depressing reading, they ignore everyone, that included Teresa May (then Home Secretary), the report she initiated took 8 years to complete. It’s conclusion was as damming as you can get and it was ignored.
So DV has very little chance of moving them from the JC did it position, especially when you consider they’ve officially said he’s the only suspect.

Yes you need the public to help and considering the date this would of been the perfect time to get some exposure. The problem is not many people know his theory that there is different avenues to explore.

 

[WestLondoner]

...

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Yes you need the public to help and considering the date this would of been the perfect time to get some exposure. The problem is not many people know his theory that there is different avenues to explore.

Maybe it would help if members of SJL's family or the Suzy Lamplugh Trust could support?

 

[Crusader21]

Maybe it would help if members of SJL's family or the Suzy Lamplugh Trust could support?

As was said before I think the family must of had their fill of mediums, cranks and authors all trying to 'help'. It's prob the right thing for them to do now in the circumstances and to just listen to the police ....

The SL Trust is in a difficult position. There's no doubt that they do amazing, much needed work in highlighting, supporting victims and fighting stalking. They have a piece on their website that what happened to Suzy mustn't happen again and about her disappearing after meeting a client, in the course of her work.

Could they really support an author who is suggesting that SL actually disappeared through nipping out of work on a personal errand? As I say they're in a difficult position .....

The only way I can see DV raising the profile / generating enough publicily and momentum is through a tv documentary / series documenting his reasearch and work on the case ....

 

[WestLondoner]

One of the arguments you sometimes hear as to why this has to have been JC is that women being abducted as a thing stopped once he was jailed. This is a highly debatable assumption, and one not borne out by other stats you can look at.

The NCA reckon that there are over 5,000 missing people in the UK who have been missing over a year (link downloads a Word doc; see page 46). In some cases, eg. 322 people from Scotland reported missing at sea, it's not a mystery what became of them. If a fishing boat fails to return to harbour, strictly the crew are then missing persons, but they obviously drowned when their boat sank. That is a very small subset, though. The thing about missing people, moreover, is that not all of them are reported as such. So it is by definition impossible to say how many there are. All you can really say is that the 5,000-odd figure is the minimum and certainly understated. If you look at someone like Denis Nilssen, he targeted victims who were less likely to be reported missing. Most indeed were not, which complicated identifying those found.

There are also 759 unidentified bodies in the UK, and 159 assorted unidentified body parts (same link page 48), who remain unknown because they can't be matched to anyone missing.

At the most conservative count, then, there are 6,000+ people in the UK whose fate is unknown, or whose fate is known but whose identity is not. There is thus plenty of room for there to be other serial killers at work, who like Nilsen would only be recognised as such if they were caught and could be associated with more than one death. Until that happens you don't know whether there are other serial killers like JC out there or not.

 

[Crusader21]

David Videcette

@DavidVidecette
·
1h

It’s 36 years to the day Suzy Lamplugh disappeared If you want to read the full story of what happened that day, with new, ground breaking interviews, you can do so here I hope my book will force police into admitting their mistakes in this case and bring closure for her family

 

[WestLondoner]

As was said before I think the family must of had their fill of mediums, cranks and authors all trying to 'help'. It's prob the right thing for them to do now in the circumstances and to just listen to the police ....

The SL Trust is in a difficult position. There's no doubt that they do amazing, much needed work in highlighting, supporting victims and fighting stalking. They have a piece on their website that what happened to Suzy mustn't happen again and about her disappearing after meeting a client, in the course of her work.

Could they really support an author who is suggesting that SL actually disappeared through nipped out of work on a personal errand? As I say they're in a difficult position .....

The only way I can see DV raising the profile / generating enough publicily and momentum is through a tv documentary / series documenting his reasearch and work on the case ....

Yes, you need an SJL equivalent of the Netflix six-parter on Madeleine McCann. One thing about all the TV documentaries on this subject is that they all interview, or at least cite, the same unsuccessful detectives who didn't solve the case. They all buy into the police speculation as though it's fact, even though the police can't persuade the CPS of this.

That for me undermines the idea that the police know more than they've said. They do, but it's clearly of no more probative value than what's public. The constant attempts at digging up JC-related locations tell you the CPS has told them they've failed to establish any connection between SJL and JC and that's what they need to fix. Most people would wonder if that's because there is no connection, but the police just find new places to dig up.

This acceptance of the police view is almost certainly a precondition of police co-operation with documentary makers in the first place. If you said you wanted to interview current or former officers and show them to be pig-headed buffoons who haven't done their jobs properly, I imagine they wouldn't be helpful, but if you said you wanted to explore other possibilities than JC they wouldn't be either. The fact is though that you don't need the police. Everyone knows what they'll say, and it'll be the same even whomever you interview and even if they know zippo about the case.

What's needed is someone to start from scratch and set out not only the usual case why it has to be JC, but to articulate the embedded assumptions and weaknesses, to point out what was not done or properly understood at the time, and hence to set out why it might not be JC. You never know, Netflix might be able to persuade the PoW that DV's obviously wrong so let's search the cellar - we'll find nothing and you'll get free publicity. If that possibility were eliminated, it would be progress. Somebody knows something.

I too recall the impact of this case - I was a sales rep working from home and calling alone on customers and prospects. Even with existing customers I didn't know all the staff. I had 20-something female colleagues in the same role as me and post-SJL they started to wonder Should I really go alone to that sales call at a lonely place I have never been to meet someone I don't know? The value of the SLT's work speaks for itself - even if it turned out that SJL was not abducted they have still drawn attention to the little-considered risks people face at work.

 

[Cluesleuth]

David Videcette
@DavidVidecette
·
1h

It’s 36 years to the day Suzy Lamplugh disappeared If you want to read the full story of what happened that day, with new, ground breaking interviews, you can do so here I hope my book will force police into admitting their mistakes in this case and bring closure for her family

Has DV ever documented when the time the stock take finnished and when the POW reopened that day?

 

[Cluesleuth]

Has anyone else listened to the video Suzy Lamplugh Disappearance. The New Evidence 22nd Juy 2022

The poster says he was told by DV that SJL's car was found with the keys still in the ignition!

Looking back at the Crimewatch Oct 1986 programme the Det only says that the keys to 37 Shorrolds are missing.
26.18 into video

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[WestLondoner]

Has DV ever documented when the time the stock take finnished and when the POW reopened that day/

No. MH thought it was done by noon because that's as long as it should take and he wanted to be away.

The only other two people who could tell you for sure were CV and KF. He does not appear to have tracked down Brendon the cellarman (can we call him BX?)

The assumption would be that it reopened normally. It was mine when I first read DV and was left thinking "eh?" when he later wrote that she died there. Of course, the stocktake could have been done by noon so MH could be away, not so the pub could reopen. If the pub's open every day, when does MH get a weekend in the normal way?

This is an important missing piece in DV's (published) case though. Was the pub closed, or was there really only one person at an open but dead pub, or were there two other bar staff, a washer upper, a food menu selling, and a bar back running around fetching stock, glasses etc? I have worked at a pub that was dead at lunchtime, which was treated as an opportunity for me to deep-clean the bar area bit also the walk-in cooler, and the dry store, and what not. If even if one punter had come in and bought a pint of XXXX at the bar they would have contributed £1.20 to the cost of having me there cleaning it

 

[Crusader21]

The value of the SLT's work speaks for itself -

A few years ago my wife was working as an evening lone worker in an office setting. The SLT provided her company with personal protection alarms.

They made her feel safer in that she could quickly alert others if she was in any sort of distress ....

DL often gets tough time on these pages, but her vision and tenacity in creating something long-lasting and of so much benefit to society ought to be loudly applauded ....

 

[Terryb808]

Has DV ever documented when the time the stock take finnished and when the POW reopened that day?

I can’t recall this being confirmed exactly, however, the permanent landlord wanted to get away and it was started early.
You’d expect this to reach a conclusion by 12.00, which has been mentioned.
If that was the case theses no reason not to open unless the general Monday (after schools break up) trade is low and it rendered an evening opening more cost effective.
Two people know this for sure, CV & Mrs CV.