UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #3

[Terryb808]

It’s a long shot expecting someone to remember if they went for a drink in the PoW on the 28th July 1986.
The week before I went to Wembley to see Queen on the Magic Tour, if it wasn’t for that i’d not be able to tell you were I was on a day that far back.
By the way Queen we’re absolutely fantastic, it hammered it down, rain bouncing 75 mm off the stage, but they just carried on as normal.

@Terryb808 I was actually watching the Queen Wembley concert the other day, they've upscaled it 4K!

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yes, Freddie was one hell of a performer, I’m glade I had the chance to see him live.
It started at about 2.30, Status Quo & INXS provided support (plus others).

 

[Terryb808]

Me too. There are too many "but what about...." issues with all the theories.

As I see it there are really three.

1/ abduction from 37SR
2/ abduction from somewhere else
3/ incident at the PoW

To take these in order, I am not persuaded SJL ever went to 37SR because I am not persuaded by the sightings, nor am I persuaded she even had the keys. The sightings in fact are all retellings of the HR sighting, so this scenario depends on HR actually being right about something - and he has poor form here.

Abduction from somewhere else or via carjacking is a possibility, and would allow the BW sighting to be accurate. In this scenario, Mr Kipper sets up an appointment at 37SR as a red herring to get everyone looking in the wrong place, but intercepts her. The trouble with this is there's no evidence other than inference by elimination of everything else.

The PoW scenario is doubtful because the pub was presumably open and who kills a stranger on impulse, hides her on the premises and acts normal?

Very challenging.

These are the three possibilities as you say, BW didn’t see SJL until 2.30 at the earliest, so where was she from approximately 1.00pm?
I agree I don’t think she ever went to SR, and to disappear so completely tends to make you think she went into a build immediately after leaving the Sturgis Office and didn’t come out.
This would fit with the recent conclusion that her car was left with the ignition keys in the lock. It was abandoned in a hurry because it was outside where she went too.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

These are the three possibilities as you say, BW didn’t see SJL until 2.30 at the earliest, so where was she from approximately 1.00pm?
I agree I don’t think she ever went to SR, and to disappear so completely tends to make you think she went into a build immediately after leaving the Sturgis Office and didn’t come out.
This would fit with the recent conclusion that her car was left with the ignition keys in the lock. It was abandoned in a hurry because it was outside where she went too.

Yup and a building such as a large pub does leave a whole lot of room for all manner of variables and a lot of spaces, nooks and crannies.

Such as: back rooms, cellar spaces, toilets, storage cupboards, cleaners cupboards, managers office, security office, kitchens, upstairs rooms, attics, spare bedrooms, wardrobes, balconies, back yard, beer garden, outside shed, garage. I don't know what the PoW has of all those things but it's a big building.

A lot of spaces in pubs are locked for security reasons and to prevent members of the public entering and / or stealing stuff. Pubs are quite noisy, often music or TV screens play or there's road traffic noise. There's no way someone upstairs would know what's going on in the bar room or someone in the cellar would know what's going on in the ladies loo for example.

My clear point is - its not true to say people would notice something going on in a pub. Customers are only in the public areas. Bar staff, kitchen staff, and cleaners don't get to access the manager's living quarters or many other lockable secure areas even around the bar level.

 

[WestLondoner]

The other thing about her car is where did the driver go after ditching it. Did he get into his own car a few yards up and drive off in that? If so, how did he get from 123SR to wherever he intercepted SJL?

The question of who this was is for me entirely secondary. I don't think there's any point speculating on who did this until you've figured what they did. If the car was dumped there sometime after 2 per BW and the cabbie sighting, then a kidnapper has from 12.45 (intercepts her right outside the office) until maybe 2.15 to secure SJL somewhere either still alive or already dead. If he's a carjacker he's gone there in her car so that is smoking hot and has to be moved ASAP. That hiding place has never been found.

It's complications like this that make me think the PoW theory works better - but then that one has problems of its own.

 

[ruby925]

These are the three possibilities as you say, BW didn’t see SJL until 2.30 at the earliest, so where was she from approximately 1.00pm?
I agree I don’t think she ever went to SR, and to disappear so completely tends to make you think she went into a build immediately after leaving the Sturgis Office and didn’t come out.
This would fit with the recent conclusion that her car was left with the ignition keys in the lock. It was abandoned in a hurry because it was outside where she went too.

If someone was stalking Suzy, watching, following her in a car etc, then maybe she was intercepted before she actually got to 37r or the POW. If Suzy knew this person, then it might not have looked like an abduction, more of a meet up...ie not remarkable and Suzy's car could have been dumped once she had been subdued somehow, but also while they were still local. No evidence for this of course so JMO. I also think Suzy would have wanted to retrieve her diary asap, not wanting anyone to see anything personal she had written..IMO

 

[Cluesleuth]

Me too. There are too many "but what about...." issues with all the theories.

As I see it there are really three.

1/ abduction from 37SR
2/ abduction from somewhere else
3/ incident at the PoW

To take these in order, I am not persuaded SJL ever went to 37SR because I am not persuaded by the sightings, nor am I persuaded she even had the keys. The sightings in fact are all retellings of the HR sighting, so this scenario depends on HR actually being right about something - and he has poor form here.

Abduction from somewhere else or via carjacking is a possibility, and would allow the BW sighting to be accurate. In this scenario, Mr Kipper sets up an appointment at 37SR as a red herring to get everyone looking in the wrong place, but intercepts her. The trouble with this is there's no evidence other than inference by elimination of everything else.

The PoW scenario is doubtful because the pub was presumably open and who kills a stranger on impulse, hides her on the premises and acts normal?

Very challenging.

Im not sure she was even abducted to be honest.. The possiblity of her being lured to a particular location/building rates just as high on my list.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

There’s so much that logically fits with the PoW and missing is a motive.
It really needs to be searched and a conclusion reached. Still find it hard to believe SJL could be in the void and has remained undiscovered for 36 years.
It’s criminal that this is a possibility and that police pride stops the place being searched.

Terryb808 you are basing you assessment only on the evidence that is in the public domain.

JC was known by police to be in Fulham the day SJL went missing, other possible suspects were investigated and eliminated. The witness sightings in Shorrolds Road and Kelvedon Road, together with the uncanny photofit both collectively and overwhelmingly support the established theory, that JC is the "only suspect".

We know that CV was spoken to by police during the original investigation. It is understood that SJL had made arrangements to collect her property from the PoW at about 18:00 on 28th July. This was a line of enquiry for the investigation. Indeed the police recovered SJL's 'lost' property from the PoW, so it was a line of enquiry the investigation team pursued.

If CV or any other staff member at the PoW had been arrested on suspicion of involvement, then the PoW would have been searched. That no such search was conducted, as far as we are aware, then it follows that neither CV or any other staff at the PoW were suspected of involvement in SJL's disappearance. Do not forget that the investigation team have far more information than we do and will have clear reason to satisfactorily resolve this line of enquiry.

In all my years I have never come across 'police pride', whatever that is, from undermining an investigation, particularly one such as this. Policing really is not like that, it's a great shame if anyone has such a misunderstanding.

What is driving the PoW theory? I believe it is a combination of DV's antipathy for the Met and his need for financial security. His career was cut short by ten years, why? Has he ever explained this! DV sets out to to dismiss all the established evidence in the public domain, for a theory with no supporting evidence. Just imagine if police major crime investigations worked on this principle.....the public would be up in arms.

That DV is seen as the antithesis to the established police line is appealing to those who, for whatever reason are content to undermine the police service in its entirety. It's troubling when people allow their personal feelings to dismiss out of hand where all the evidence leads.

There is no evidence/credible information that supports DV's PoW theory. Without either of these the police will never persuade a Magistrate/JP to issue them with a search warrant. This is the reality of the situation and it certainly has nothing to do with police obstructing the investigation.

John Cannan 'firmly in frame' over Lamplugh

Former detective Jim Dickie led a review of the estate agent's disappearance.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If someone was stalking Suzy, watching, following her in a car etc, then maybe she was intercepted before she actually got to 37r or the POW. If Suzy knew this person, then it might not have looked like an abduction, more of a meet up...ie not remarkable and Suzy's car could have been dumped once she had been subdued somehow, but also while they were still local. No evidence for this of course so JMO. I also think Suzy would have wanted to retrieve her diary asap, not wanting anyone to see anything personal she had written..IMO

It's possible someone could have been stalking her but that's just such a complex process it almost defies belief and then it leaves the question of why bring a red hot car back to the area? Why not drive it out of town and dump it?

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Im not sure she was even abducted to be honest.. The possiblity of her being lured to a particular location/building rates just as high on my list.

Being lured to a place is (prima facie) abduction. I agree that there is high possibility that SJL was taken to a 'secure' place out of sight/sound, before being killed.

Of course my view is very much based on JC's MO. He was a rapist, who tied his victims up and in the case of SB held her hostage in a building for a number of hours, before killing her and disposing of her body many miles away at a remote location in water, yet near to a road.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Im not sure she was even abducted to be honest.. The possiblity of her being lured to a particular location/building rates just as high on my list.

It does seem most likely she was lured inside somewhere nearby. Since that somewhere is clearly not SR then where? The PoW? Her own flat? Did she even nip into a local shop? Did someone meet her at SR and drive / walk to a different location?

The whole diary thing too, it seems rather coincidental that at the exact same time she met her demise someone may have read it and had a motivation to feel murderously angry or predatory rapey. Many of us are speculating this is the work of a sexual predator but it's just as likely to be someone who felt murderously angry / betrayed / disrespected as those are common motives.

 

[Cluesleuth]

The other thing about her car is where did the driver go after ditching it. Did he get into his own car a few yards up and drive off in that? If so, how did he get from 123SR to wherever he intercepted SJL?

The question of who this was is for me entirely secondary. I don't think there's any point speculating on who did this until you've figured what they did. If the car was dumped there sometime after 2 per BW and the cabbie sighting, then a kidnapper has from 12.45 (intercepts her right outside the office) until maybe 2.15 to secure SJL somewhere either still alive or already dead. If he's a carjacker he's gone there in her car so that is smoking hot and has to be moved ASAP. That hiding place has never been found.

It's complications like this that make me think the PoW theory works better - but then that one has problems of its own.

Whats been so refreshing over the last days is that the thread has been allowed to breathe again. Its interesting to understand how other members think when considering ALL possiblities.

The location of the abandoned Fiesta offers many possibilities for anyone wanting to leave the area. theres a bus stop which serves Fulham and Broadway stations, Taxi cab, Pedestrian and cycle access to the Thames walk which runs along the riverside, Putney station just down the rd. own vehicle, literally walked away, lived close by.

I understand your thinking that who did it is secondary to how it was done WL but I cant seperate it Im working it by looking at either.

So much of this case lack real detail its very difficult to get any traction to go forward with any certainity
MOO

 

[Whitehall 1212]

If someone was stalking Suzy, watching, following her in a car etc, then maybe she was intercepted before she actually got to 37r or the POW. If Suzy knew this person, then it might not have looked like an abduction, more of a meet up...ie not remarkable and Suzy's car could have been dumped once she had been subdued somehow, but also while they were still local. No evidence for this of course so JMO. I also think Suzy would have wanted to retrieve her diary asap, not wanting anyone to see anything personal she had written..IMO

A stranger abduction at lunchtime, on a working day in this part of London, would have been inherently risky in terms of resistance from the victim/being witnessed. It is not the MO for such abductions, i.e. quiet place....few people about, after dark, place for offender to discreetly view potential victims approaching.

Now if the victim was known to the offender, but not closely/by an alias, then it would greatly reduce the risk. The offender now has time and greater opportunity on their side. They can engineer circumstances where they can strike when there is least chance of being being seen/heard and they are also able to be in very close proximity to the victim, without the victim having significant concern and taking avoiding action beforehand, e.g. crossing to the other side of the street, walking up to a house and knocking on the door, striking out, shouting/screaming

I suggest SJL's abductor was able to strike once she had gone into a building voluntarily.

 

[Crusader21]

JC was known by police to be in Fulham the day SJL went missing

John Cannan 'firmly in frame' over Lamplugh

Former detective Jim Dickie led a review of the estate agent's disappearance.

www.bbc.co.uk

That's very interesting indeed!, and the first time that I'd heard that. Previously it was debatable if JC had visited (socialised) in the Fulham area having been in the day hostel, a few miles away

So we have a convicted sex offender in the very locality on the actual day of his release!

I've 2 questions -
Q. Where (locally) was JC staying?
Q. Can we believe JD / police?

Welcome back btw Whitehall!

 

[Whitehall 1212]

It's possible someone could have been stalking her but that's just such a complex process it almost defies belief and then it leaves the question of why bring a red hot car back to the area? Why not drive it out of town and dump it?

Maybe the red hot car was parked outside a building that was white hot and had to be removed from the immediate area, before returning to the white hot building!

I suggest the Fiesta parked outside/close to an address indicated where SJL was being held against her will. Rather than calmly parking the vehicle in a unobtrusive manner, handbrake on, taking the purse, locking it and walking off, the offenders mindset was to return to SJL asap. adrenaline buzzing.

This leads me to consider if either SJL was held close by, i.e. easy walking distance from Stephenson Road or whether the offender had another car parked near to the where SJL's Fiesta was abandoned.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Maybe the red hot car was parked outside a building that was white hot and had to be removed from the immediate area, before returning to the white hot building!

I suggest the Fiesta parked outside/close to an address indicated where SJL was being held against her will. Rather than calmly parking the vehicle in a unobtrusive manner, handbrake on, taking the purse, locking it and walking off, the offenders mindset was to return to SJL asap. adrenaline buzzing.

This leads me to consider if either SJL was held close by, i.e. easy walking distance from Stephenson Road or whether the offender had another car parked near to the where SJL's Fiesta was abandoned.

I've been thinking that too - if it was a sexually motivated incident also if the perp was 'high' on adrenaline or on substances they may have kept her somewhere very close by and wanted to get back.

Altho I suppose the perp may have been high on terror adrenaline after having done something evil and in a terrible hurry to get back and cover the crime up.

Coming out of this car parking situation is that whomsoever parked that car was not a cold, calculated, killer like say a hit man or a self assured serial killer might be. Also that it's likely everything involved took place in a small vicinity.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

That's very interesting indeed!, and the first time that I'd heard that. Previously it was debatable if JC had visited (socialised) in the Fulham area having been in the day hostel, a few miles away

So we have a convicted sex offender in the very locality on the actual day of his release!

I've 2 questions -
Q. Where (locally) was JC staying?
Q. Can we believe JD / police?

Welcome back btw Whitehall!

1. JC will have been released on licence, as he had not served the full term imposed by the court. I would have expected his licence conditions, which would have been the responsibility of the Probation Service, to have included him notifying where he was living and to attend meetings with his probation officer periodically.....these would have likely been frequently to begin with (once a week).

Of course we are not privy to this information. I would suggest that he will have given his mothers address and be reporting to the probation service in the West Midlands. However, JC was released on Friday 25th July, I suspect with the only condition being to report to the probation service sometime the following week, where the conditions of his licence would have been formalised. Who knows where he was during the intervening period?

Don't forget as far as we know JC wasn't suggested as a suspect for SJL's disappearance until late 1986/early 1987, following a rape in the Thames Valley Police area. JC was resourceful, utterly ruthless but also had the ability to charm and deceive. He is a man who would rob for money.

Cheap hotels, bedsits where people came and went with abandon, often with criminality, drugs and prostitution in the mix were a common feature of 1986 London. Look at the images of the properties in Shorrolds Road from the time.....squalid exteriors. it certainly was not the Fulham of the 2000's and beyond.

If the police are so sure that JC is the "only suspect" then they will have checked all this and not found anything that could rule him out, indeed on the contrary, what they know likely supports his involvement.

2. Yes I have no reason to doubt JD. I know personally that he will have advanced any reasonable line of enquiry to get SJL back and convict the offender. If he says JC is the "only suspect" then I would absolutely trust that. This is a man who knows the investigation inside out, he knows all the evidence, he knows all the lines of enquiry and how and why they were resolved. JD is a man of integrity.

The original investigation missed evidential opportunities initially as they were overwhelmed by the volume of information received and a little later by a less than ideal relationship between the SIO and Diana Lamplugh. The police have been honest about these, they have not tried to hide these facts. The review in 2000 was conducted by a whole new era of detectives who all wanted one thing, to be the team that finally returned SJL to her family and obtain sufficient evidence to convict the offender.

 

[Eastend Eagle]

On the subject of those that cannot be named, PSS and TS I think they are ( personally I can't think who they may be ), has anyone ever investigated if they might have any links to any of SJL's colleagues?

 

[WestLondoner]

Whats been so refreshing over the last days is that the thread has been allowed to breathe again. Its interesting to understand how other members think when considering ALL possiblities.

The location of the abandoned Fiesta offers many possibilities for anyone wanting to leave the area. theres a bus stop which serves Fulham and Broadway stations, Taxi cab, Pedestrian and cycle access to the Thames walk which runs along the riverside, Putney station just down the rd. own vehicle, literally walked away, lived close by.

I understand your thinking that who did it is secondary to how it was done WL but I cant seperate it Im working it by looking at either.

So much of this case lack real detail its very difficult to get any traction to go forward with any certainity
MOO

The probable timing of the car being ditched - perhaps within 80 minutes of SJL leaving the office, 2 hours max - tells us several things. One, wherever she went, it was not very far because she had to get there, be attacked and securely hidden, and her attacker then had to drive her car away. Two, whoever dumped her car clearly wanted it to be thought that she never left Fulham. So far as the police investigation went this ruse worked brilliantly. Third, whoever did this attacked her more or less instantly because he wouldn't have had time to do all this otherwise.

So if we buy, arguendo, that she went to SR equipped to conduct a viewing i.e. with the keys, the attacker chose not to attack her in that empty property. Instead he got her to drive to another, with him in her car. Why he wouldn't just arrange to meet her at his safe house I can't imagine. Sure he could be laying a false trail but he's also risking being sighted. Why they wouldn't go there in two cars is equally unclear, but anyway let's say they go in hers. He attacks her or imprisons her and then has to ditch her car.

The car should therefore have been sighted in a third location, after SR and before it turns up outside 123SR. The only plausible such sighting is BW, but the time doesn't work. SJL can't have been alive at 2.45 if her car was seen elsewhere at 2.30. So there's nothing to suggest she was taken somewhere from 37SR.

Furthermore, if you're ditching a car, and you've taken the trouble to lay a false trail to SR , you'll want to lay a false trail to the car too because the search is going to focus on there. So if you killed SJL in Fulham you wouldn't ditch her car in Fulham. You'd ditch it in Hammersmith or Chiswick or somewhere, to fog the picture as to where she went.

If the car provides a false trail, then she left Fulham, and it was dumped back there to make it look like she didn't. She wouldn't have left Fulham to do a viewing - a different Sturgis office would have handled it - so it was for some other reason.

Essentially anyone organised enough to lure her to one place so as to lure her to another would have done something smarter with her car. I would have swapped its plates and driven it into a lake - unless, of course, I was under some sort of time pressure to be somewhere after killing her.

 

[WestLondoner]

On the subject of those that cannot be named, PSS and TS I think they are ( personally I can't think who they may be ), has anyone ever investigated if they might have any links to any of SJL's colleagues?

Not that I have ever heard of. They are chiefly of interest because SJL was supposed to be having lunch with PSS that day but it was cancelled - which raises the question of whether it really was cancelled. The other reason is that TS was involved in a business venture with SJL that she cooled on, and 8 days after shd disappeared he went bankrupt, I.e he could have had some sort of money related grudge.

 

[Cluesleuth]

I've been thinking that too - if it was a sexually motivated incident also if the perp was 'high' on adrenaline or on substances they may have kept her somewhere very close by and wanted to get back.

Altho I suppose the perp may have been high on terror adrenaline after having done something evil and in a terrible hurry to get back and cover the crime up.

Coming out of this car parking situation is that whomsoever parked that car was not a cold, calculated, killer like say a hit man or a self assured serial killer might be. Also that it's likely everything involved took place in a small vicinity.

A serial killer turned hitman perhaps?