UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #3

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

A serial killer turned hitman perhaps?

Well I suppose that would be a good career for a serial killer.

But the opposite, I'm suggesting not an experienced killer, esp not a hit, and someone panicking. Otherwise they'd have parked the car neatly somewhere it might not get noticed for ages or dumped it somewhere obscure. Parking the way they did actually guaranteed the car would get quickly noticed. Also it implies they hastily left the area which again would get them noticed. This murderer could be someone who didn't even intend to kill but did act in murderous violence and then panicked. Maybe it's their first and only ever murder? I suppose there's a lot of people who commit one murder in a fit of rage and scare themselves witless and never do such a thing again.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

The probable timing of the car being ditched - perhaps within 80 minutes of SJL leaving the office, 2 hours max - tells us several things. One, wherever she went, it was not very far because she had to get there, be attacked and securely hidden, and her attacker then had to drive her car away. Two, whoever dumped her car clearly wanted it to be thought that she never left Fulham. So far as the police investigation went this ruse worked brilliantly. Third, whoever did this attacked her more or less instantly because he wouldn't have had time to do all this otherwise.

So if we buy, arguendo, that she went to SR equipped to conduct a viewing i.e. with the keys, the attacker chose not to attack her in that empty property. Instead he got her to drive to another, with him in her car. Why he wouldn't just arrange to meet her at his safe house I can't imagine. Sure he could be laying a false trail but he's also risking being sighted. Why they wouldn't go there in two cars is equally unclear, but anyway let's say they go in hers. He attacks her or imprisons her and then has to ditch her car.

The car should therefore have been sighted in a third location, after SR and before it turns up outside 123SR. The only plausible such sighting is BW, but the time doesn't work. SJL can't have been alive at 2.45 if her car was seen elsewhere at 2.30. So there's nothing to suggest she was taken somewhere from 37SR.

Furthermore, if you're ditching a car, and you've taken the trouble to lay a false trail to SR , you'll want to lay a false trail to the car too because the search is going to focus on there. So if you killed SJL in Fulham you wouldn't ditch her car in Fulham. You'd ditch it in Hammersmith or Chiswick or somewhere, to fog the picture as to where she went.

If the car provides a false trail, then she left Fulham, and it was dumped back there to make it look like she didn't. She wouldn't have left Fulham to do a viewing - a different Sturgis office would have handled it - so it was for some other reason.

Essentially anyone organised enough to lure her to one place so as to lure her to another would have done something smarter with her car. I would have swapped its plates and driven it into a lake - unless, of course, I was under some sort of time pressure to be somewhere after killing her.

Good points here, I don't get a sense that a complicated false trail plan was hatched. Time pressure is more to the point. An unemployed serial killer sex offender who was stalking a person would surely have had a highly planned but slightly more contained approach and solution to the car dumping - that isn't indicated in any of this.

I'm sensing a lunchtime murder by someone local who absolutely knew SJL, panicked afterwards then had to be back at work. An office employee? Someone with business commitments? Someone from the pub?

That car should have been detained for future forensic developments as it defies belief there wasn't sweat and body fluids and fibres from the perp. To fail to have detained it is yet another bizarre aspect of this crime. This perpetrator sure got very lucky they must be in disbelief they got away with it.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I've been thinking that too - if it was a sexually motivated incident also if the perp was 'high' on adrenaline or on substances they may have kept her somewhere very close by and wanted to get back.

Altho I suppose the perp may have been high on terror adrenaline after having done something evil and in a terrible hurry to get back and cover the crime up.

Coming out of this car parking situation is that whomsoever parked that car was not a cold, calculated, killer like say a hit man or a self assured serial killer might be. Also that it's likely everything involved took place in a small vicinity.

It fits with JC's offender profile, in that he is a disorganised offender with a power/control motive. He appears unable to operate clinically and with significant planning. There is thought in the pre-attack phase, e.g. when, where, how yet once the attack begins the power and control seem to be the overarching element, to the exclusion of cold, calculated thinking.

JC makes poor attempts to cover his tracks once he has gained control, i.e. a victim secured in a property.

SJL's Fiesta was abandoned rather than parked, SB was taken to his own flat, he painted her car blue and put it in his garage....which was a mistake, he allowed SB to phone her work and report sick and she was able to phone for a taxi, he kept the VEL from SB's mini in his briefcase. He is controlled by his emotions, not by rational thought. He doesn't think coldly and clearly once he attacks, although most wouldn't. This, together with modern day investigative/forensic techniques, is why the majority of killers are quickly arrested.

JC doesn't have the intellect and control over his emotions to be a clinical serial killer. He got unlucky with SB. Only his arrest in Leamington Spa for a robbery some weeks later, when the tax disc was found in the briefcase in his BMW and the subsequent search of his flat/garage that recovered SB's mini, put him in the frame. Without these he would most likely have got away with SB's abduction and murder.

I believe that JC and SJL were acquainted sufficiently well for her to agree to meet him, either in her professional capacity or in circumstances that she disguised as being in her professional capacity. I suggest they met at 37 SR but then went elsewhere in her car, where she was overpowered at some point......either in a building or in a car he was using and possibly close to where her vehicle was found in Stevenson Road.

With SB, JC had used fear and weapon in a quiet car park with the reduced light/darkness of an October evening as SB was off guard as she entered her vehicle. With SJL he used their acquaintance to provide him with the opportunity to get close enough at the optimum opportunity to attack and overpower her.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

It fits with JC's offender profile, in that he is a disorganised offender with a power/control motive. He appears unable to operate clinically and with significant planning. There is thought in the pre-attack phase, e.g. when, where, how yet once the attack begins the power and control seem to be the overarching element, to the exclusion of cold, calculated thinking.

JC makes poor attempts to cover his tracks once he has gained control, i.e. a victim secured in a property.

SJL's Fiesta was abandoned rather than parked, SB was taken to his own flat, he painted her car blue and put it in his garage....which was a mistake, he allowed SB to phone her work and report sick and she was able to phone for a taxi, he kept the VEL from SB's mini in his briefcase. He is controlled by his emotions, not by rational thought. He doesn't think coldly and clearly once he attacks, although most wouldn't. This, together with modern day investigative/forensic techniques, is why the majority of killers are quickly arrested.

JC doesn't have the intellect and control over his emotions to be a clinical serial killer. He got unlucky with SB. Only his arrest in Leamington Spa for a robbery some weeks later, when the tax disc was found in the briefcase in his BMW and the subsequent search of his flat/garage that recovered SB's mini, put him in the frame. Without these he would most likely have got away with SB's abduction and murder.

I believe that JC and SJL were acquainted sufficiently well for her to agree to meet him, either in her professional capacity or in circumstances that she disguised as being in her professional capacity. I suggest they met at 37 SR but then went elsewhere in her car, where she was overpowered at some point......either in a building or in a car he was using and possibly close to where her vehicle was found in Stevenson Road.

With SB, JC had used fear and weapon in a quiet car park with the reduced light/darkness of an October evening as SB was off guard as she entered her vehicle. With SJL he used their acquaintance to provide him with the opportunity to get close enough at the optimum opportunity to attack and overpower her.

Very interesting points. So, what is it likely he could have done with her body and hidden / disposed of her? I believe he was living in the hostel at this time so he had no premises of his own to utilise? He seems to have an MO of taking pleasure in tormenting his victims so he would have needed to go somewhere they wouldn't be overheard.

How did he come to know SJL in the first place? Did they have mutual acquaintances or did he know people who he would likely have access to their premises?

 

[Pinkizzy]

Very interesting points. So, what is it likely he could have done with her body and hidden / disposed of her? I believe he was living in the hostel at this time so he had no premises of his own to utilise? He seems to have an MO of taking pleasure in tormenting his victims so he would have needed to go somewhere they wouldn't be overheard.

How did he come to know SJL in the first place? Did they have mutual acquaintances or did he know people who he would likely have access to their premises?

JC probably had access to a lockup in Acton, which could be used as storage space for the props company he was working with. SJL may have remained there for a few hours/days.

 

[WestLondoner]

How did he come to know SJL in the first place?

There's no evidence JC did know her nor that he'd ever been to Fulham. The reason why the CPS have told the plod their case is a non-srarter is clearly because it fails on this point.

It's all very well pointing to speculative and circumstantial supposed connections whereby someone tricked her into a meeting then abducted her, but this requires evidence that she had met him and that he was in Fulham that day. If you can't prove that you have nothing and your circumstantial evidence could fit 50 people for all you know.

The reason the police keep digging up places with which JC might have been associated is this. Finding SJL somewhere like that would prove she encountered him.

I'm surprised they haven't dug up the floor of his pre-release hostel cell or the props warehouse in Acton.

 

[Konstantin]

I suggest the Fiesta parked outside/close to an address indicated where SJL was being held against her will. Rather than calmly parking the vehicle in a unobtrusive manner, handbrake on, taking the purse, locking it and walking off, the offenders mindset was to return to SJL asap. adrenaline buzzing.

If it was JC, how did he get access to another property to take her to?
He had to have planned the attack and know her so that she would go to the property willingly, as how else could he take her there in broad daylight?
And yes it must surely have been in the vicinity of where her car was parked if this is the scenario since why would she agree to traipse to another part of London with him? He has to have a plausible story to get her to come with him--another property to view that might be put up for sale?

Really we are looking at two scenarios here-- either that SJL had an appointment with someone who was her abductor, or she made the appointment up and coincidentally went somewhere else and something befell her there.

Either the sightings of her around 37SR were imagined by multiple people or someone of her description or thereabouts was there with a male. If you read AS one of the sightings was described by the witness as a woman blonder than the photo of SJL shared by the police, so they put greater weight on it as actually SJL had her hair done the weekend before and was blonder than the picture. If she did go there then this was a planned abduction.

 

[Konstantin]

JC probably had access to a lockup in Acton, which could be used as storage space for the props company he was working with. SJL may have remained there for a few hours/days.

BUt why would Suzy agree to go there with him?
If that was the sort of place he took her to he would have to do that by force, in broad daylight, i.e. a carjacking.
And the place would have to be safe enough that he knew no one else from the company would be nearby or visit it.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

That car should have been detained for future forensic developments as it defies belief there wasn't sweat and body fluids and fibres from the perp. To fail to have detained it is yet another bizarre aspect of this crime. This perpetrator sure got very lucky they must be in disbelief they got away with it.

DNA profiling was not developed for criminal investigation purposes until 1985, It was first used in the UK in 1986 to eliminate a suspect in a murder investigation, when comparing the suspects blood group with that of the offenders, from semen samples at the scene.

DNA was first used to to convict an offender in the USA in 1987.

Not long after Colin Pitchfork admitted to the rape and murder of Lynda Mann (1983) and Dawn Ashworth (1986) when the DNA evidence of his presence at both murder scenes was put to him.

Has is ever been stated that SJL's car was not forensically examined for traces of blood, semen, saliva, hairs, fibres, fingerprints etc?

Basic fingerprint technique at the time was generally confined to hard, flat, non-porous surfaces, e.g. glass. the plastic trim inside the car would not have been a good surface to lift fingerprints.

That the car was found unlocked and was used by more than one Sturgis employee would have been a major hurdle with proving a forensic link beyond reasonable doubt further down the line.

Whilst items, including clothing, are often retained as evidence and in the hope of further advancements in forensic science. Complete vehicles, once examined, can rarely be retained in a way in which they are not forensically compromised, i.e. completely sealed in a secure environment.

The vehicle will be examined and the evidence documented. The continuity of the movement of samples in the evidential chain is maintained, to ensure evidential probity. Specific sections of seat cloth/leather/carpet/interior trim would be removed if traces of bodily fluids are found.

 

[WestLondoner]

BUt why would Suzy agree to go there with him?
If that was the sort of place he took her to he would have to do that by force, in broad daylight, i.e. a carjacking.
And the place would have to be safe enough that he knew no one else from the company would be nearby or visit it.

And they went there in her car. Acton is 4.5 miles from Fulham so he has to get her there, get her inside, and drive her car back to Fulham, within a maximum of 2 hours so it can be seen by a cabbie.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

There's no evidence JC did know her nor that he'd ever been to Fulham. The reason why the CPS have told the plod their case is a non-srarter is clearly because it fails on this point.

It's all very well pointing to speculative and circumstantial supposed connections whereby someone tricked her into a meeting then abducted her, but this requires evidence that she had met him and that he was in Fulham that day. If you can't prove that you have nothing and your circumstantial evidence could fit 50 people for all you know.

The reason the police keep digging up places with which JC might have been associated is this. Finding SJL somewhere like that would prove she encountered him.

I'm surprised they haven't dug up the floor of his pre-release hostel cell or the props warehouse in Acton.

It's crazy they're so happy to dig all over the place but not even countenance requesting a search of PoW.

I've been reading up some more on JC and the idea he's the 'House for Sale' rapist which I suppose is why there's a clear suggestion he could be Mr Kipper. One thing I don't understand is why there's no forensic evidence to prove him to those rapes? As per above post and what I've been reading about him, he doesn't seem like someone who even cares about being detected never mind makes meticulous cover up plans.

Notable how vehemently he denies having known SJL when he has nothing to lose at this point, which is being explained as one of his psychological games but could also be true. Confusing.

 

[Terryb808]

There's no evidence JC did know her nor that he'd ever been to Fulham. The reason why the CPS have told the plod their case is a non-srarter is clearly because it fails on this point.

It's all very well pointing to speculative and circumstantial supposed connections whereby someone tricked her into a meeting then abducted her, but this requires evidence that she had met him and that he was in Fulham that day. If you can't prove that you have nothing and your circumstantial evidence could fit 50 people for all you know.

The reason the police keep digging up places with which JC might have been associated is this. Finding SJL somewhere like that would prove she encountered him.

I'm surprised they haven't dug up the floor of his pre-release hostel cell or the props warehouse in Acton.

it's interesting that JD found a witness that has passed away who's relative said he saw JC throw a large bag / suitcase in the canal at Gallows Bridge. Yet the met have taken as much notice of this as they have DV & the PoW.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

And they went there in her car. Acton is 4.5 miles from Fulham so he has to get her there, get her inside, and drive her car back to Fulham, within a maximum of 2 hours so it can be seen by a cabbie.

4.5 miles in terms of London roads and driving speed is a heck of a long way to take someone (who may be struggling) and would take a long time. Why bring the car back at all - to make it look as if it hadn't left the area is a bit too convoluted for someone like JC who is pretty reckless.

 

[Terryb808]

SJL's car was used by other Sturgis staff, so would not have been parked in the same place as it was when she arrived for work. As they all used street parking if you planned to the abduction when she reached her car you'd need to wait, watch and follow her to the car. It could be parked in a place that was busy and overlooked, which would be risky.
As discussed viewings were sometimes conducted by other staff members, even for example when the appointment was taken by SJL.
So you wouldn't be able to be sure that a first time viewing would be conducted by the person who took the call and confirmed the appointment. I can't see SJL accepting a call Monday late morning and rushing out to meet someone who has effectively cold called about a property that's so recently come onto the market.

 

[WestLondoner]

I've been reading up some more on JC and the idea he's the 'House for Sale' rapist which I suppose is why there's a clear suggestion he could be Mr Kipper. One thing I don't understand is why there's no forensic evidence to prove him to those rapes?

Digging up his mother's kitchen aims at reinforcing the narrative whereas digging unrelated sights would undermine it. There is nothing but humiliation in it for the police if she is there.

The rapes in the West Midlands are interesting but as you say where are the forensics, and where was the identity parade in which 20-odd victims picked JC out of an ID parade? It sounds like a lovely fit to JC until you consider that all ghost potential witnesses were never invited to look at Mr Kipper and say if they thought this was the same man. If anyone ID'd him based on his resemblance to Mr Kipper why wasn't he charged with those rapes?

Inexorably the suspicion forms that the attacker was someone patently quite different and therefore this line of reasoning was not developed because it exculpated JC rather than connecting him.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Digging up his mother's kitchen aims at reinforcing the narrative whereas digging unrelated sights would undermine it. There is nothing but humiliation in it for the police if she is there.

The rapes in the West Midlands are interesting but as you say where are the forensics, and where was the identity parade in which 20-odd victims picked JC out of an ID parade? It sounds like a lovely fit to JC until you consider that all ghost potential witnesses were never invited to look at Mr Kipper and say if they thought this was the same man. If anyone ID'd him based on his resemblance to Mr Kipper why wasn't he charged with those rapes?

Inexorably the suspicion forms that the attacker was someone patently quite different and therefore this line of reasoning was not developed because it exculpated JC rather than connecting him.

None of it makes any sense in terms of police action whether one believes it could be JC or not.

Seems like JC being such a repulsive person and got around a bit could easily be a good candidate for forces to write off rapes and murders back in the day by various forces.

 

[Cluesleuth]

SJL's car was used by other Sturgis staff, so would not have been parked in the same place as it was when she arrived for work. As they all used street parking if you planned to the abduction when she reached her car you'd need to wait, watch and follow her to the car. It could be parked in a place that was busy and overlooked, which would be risky.
As discussed viewings were sometimes conducted by other staff members, even for example when the appointment was taken by SJL.
So you wouldn't be able to be sure that a first time viewing would be conducted by the person who took the call and confirmed the appointment. I can't see SJL accepting a call Monday late morning and rushing out to meet someone who has effectively cold called about a property that's so recently come onto the market.

If the line above the Mr Kipper entry is also an entry for that day and it relates to the viewing then someone who she would be lead to believe had sold would be a hot buyer and would definately had fitted a viewing in at short notice

Its only my opinion but I see it as saying He as or his sold for £****** profit
MOO

 

[Pinkizzy]

I guess the house for sale rapes stopped when he went to jail after attacking a lady in Erdington

Digging up his mother's kitchen aims at reinforcing the narrative whereas digging unrelated sights would undermine it. There is nothing but humiliation in it for the police if she is there.

The rapes in the West Midlands are interesting but as you say where are the forensics, and where was the identity parade in which 20-odd victims picked JC out of an ID parade? It sounds like a lovely fit to JC until you consider that all ghost potential witnesses were never invited to look at Mr Kipper and say if they thought this was the same man. If anyone ID'd him based on his resemblance to Mr Kipper why wasn't he charged with those rapes?

Inexorably the suspicion forms that the attacker was someone patently quite different and therefore this line of reasoning was not developed because it exculpated JC rather than connecting him.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

If it was JC, how did he get access to another property to take her to?
He had to have planned the attack and know her so that she would go to the property willingly, as how else could he take her there in broad daylight?
And yes it must surely have been in the vicinity of where her car was parked if this is the scenario since why would she agree to traipse to another part of London with him? He has to have a plausible story to get her to come with him--another property to view that might be put up for sale?

Really we are looking at two scenarios here-- either that SJL had an appointment with someone who was her abductor, or she made the appointment up and coincidentally went somewhere else and something befell her there.

Either the sightings of her around 37SR were imagined by multiple people or someone of her description or thereabouts was there with a male. If you read AS one of the sightings was described by the witness as a woman blonder than the photo of SJL shared by the police, so they put greater weight on it as actually SJL had her hair done the weekend before and was blonder than the picture. If she did go there then this was a planned abduction.

SJL must have had sufficient confidence in the offender to go with them willingly as I think a stranger abduction on the street in such circumstances would have been far too open to compromise/witnesses/999 calls. This misplaced confidence could be as much as a client viewing a property, particularly if she had met that person socially.

However, there was no index card at Sturgis for Kipper and the diary entry is by SJP (nothing indicates otherwise). SJL is known to have had the attention of someone who sent flowers to her work and home (he new her address). She spoke of someone she met, who she had been out with, who she was unsure of. I suggest that she would be keen to resolve this matter, in as friendly and courteous way as possible.

Did Kipper phone Sturgis on the Saturday prior, when SJL was working? He wanted to see her, she wanted to let him down gently. She was out Saturday night and all day Sunday but probably wanted this matter sorted asap. Did she arrange to see JC at the earliest possible time for her, Monday at lunchtime. Was Shorrolds Road the genuine location? Well by the witnesses it seems quite possible. Maybe JC also said he was looking for a property as part of the manipulation to get to see her. She would not want her other colleagues to know or deal with him.....she compartmentalised her life.

I think that JC was so accomplished with the charm, champagne, clever deceit of good breeding and wealth that SJL met him and maybe began to doubt her previous intention of letting him down. He went in her car, who knows where? A quiet spot, maybe where his car was parked, a property that he new was vacant nearby (he'd done the estate agents rounds). Maybe be had gained entry beforehand and had been squatting since being released. At some point he had engineered a position where he knew he could overpower her, by threatening her with a weapon and secure her, with little chance of being disturbed/observed. This was either his car or a property he had access to.

These are just my thoughts based on the most likely and least complex theory. Most victims are know to their killer, often they are partners or ex-partners whose sense of rejection is overwhelming. We know JC's danger to women and it would seem particularly attractive, professional, white ones in their 20's. We know that when he is rejected by a woman he loses control. If SJL rejected JC that day, she paid the ultimate price.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

If the line above the Mr Kipper entry is also an entry for that day and it relates to the viewing then someone who she would be lead to believe had sold would be a hot buyer and would definately had fitted a viewing in at short notice

Its only my opinion but I see it as saying He as or his sold for £****** profit
MOO

The entry at the very top of the page was "142 Wardo - take contract".....I would assume to drop the Sturgis sales contract off for checking and then signing by the vendors who would then return it to Sturgis? It was unlikely time dependant.....just sometime that day when most convenient.

There was nothing between this entry and "12:45 Mr Kipper 37 Shorrolds O/S"