UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #3

[WestLondoner]

I am not a sports fan but when did TV screens get big enough that everyone in the pub could see one? Was that in the 80s or was it, as ISTR, mid-90s?

My rule of thumb with pubs is to check out the loos before ordering food there. However the loos are kept, the kitchens will be the same.

The grubbiness of pubs was starting to improve by the mid-80s. I went to a couple of graduate trainee interviews with breweries, I forget which two, and was surprised by how staid and sober the managers were. They sure weren't ageing party animals making a career of their hobby. The job you'd be trained for, had you taken it, was working out which pubs to redevelop, and they were very clear that a huge part of that was decent food and civilising them for women. The starting salary on offer in 1985 was £5,500, and I recall turning a couple of those jobs down because oil companies were offering me £8,500 to £9,000 to do the same job (except for petrol stations rather than pubs).

This does make me wonder what someone in a job like that in a pub would think of SJL if she happened to note her bonuses in the personal diary. You're on 8 grand a year, she's maybe on 25 with no training and easier hours.

 

[WestLondoner]

Another point about the car in Stevenage Road is that the BT workers apparently saw 'nothing out of the ordinary'. That is not the same as 'never saw any white Fiesta at all'. It tends to undermine the James Galway man claim of 'a right ruck' - such a ruck that nobody noticed it. It doesn't necessarily mean the car can't have been there before 4pm.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Another point about the car in Stevenage Road is that the BT workers apparently saw 'nothing out of the ordinary'. That is not the same as 'never saw any white Fiesta at all'. It tends to undermine the James Galway man claim of 'a right ruck' - such a ruck that nobody noticed it. It doesn't necessarily mean the car can't have been there before 4pm.

Two points:

1. The BT workers are not given as witnesses to the presence of a white Fiesta. Neither have I seen it stated where they were working relative to where SJL's car was found. Essentially they were witnesses to nothing.

2. The claim of the "right ruck" is all we have. We know the cabbie picked up the fare ("Galway" man) in Finlay Street but we have no information as to where exactly the "ruck" was witnessed, who was involved, number of people, descriptions, whether it was on the street, in a car, in a front garden, in the doorway to a property, in a property.

To make any assumptions based on such limited information should always be avoided. There is nothing to indicate that the "right ruck" was in any way connected to SJL.

 

[NorthParade]

It would be interesting to see which sporting fixtures were televised at that time

I would think not many? Live league football had only gone on regular TV a couple of years previously. Racing coverage was scarce except for Saturdays and big races. English football on television - Wikipedia

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I would think not many? Live league football had only gone on regular TV a couple of years previously. Racing coverage was scarce except for Saturdays and big races. English football on television - Wikipedia

In terms of major sporting events, the only one I can find is the Commonwealth Games from Edinburgh from 24th July to 2nd August. Although, I don't count it as a major crown pulling event into the pub to watch. JMO

Things that weren't on around 28th July 1986

World Cup (Football) - Final was on 29th June
Summer/Winter Olympics were in the same years either side of 1986 (1984 and 1988)
Open Golf Championship - Final round 20th July
Wimbledon Tennis - Mens final on 6th July
British Lions (Rugby Union) - Summer tour of South Africa cancelled for political reasons
Indian cricket tour of England - Final international 8th July
World Championship Darts and Snooker - both earlier in 1986
British football and rugby (Union and League) season finished.

Horse racing was on - more of a case of placing a bet and nipping next door to drink and watch the race on TV. Not my thing by the way - mugs game.

• July
  • Sandown Park – Coral-Eclipse Meeting
  • Newmarket – Newmarket's July Meeting
  • Ascot – King George Day
  • Goodwood – Glorious Goodwood - end of July

 

[Konstantin]

2. The claim of the "right ruck" is all we have. We know the cabbie picked up the fare ("Galway" man) in Finlay Street but we have no information as to where exactly the "ruck" was witnessed, who was involved, number of people, descriptions, whether it was on the street, in a car, in a front garden, in the doorway to a property, in a property.

The cab fare never came forward did he?
Am I right in thinking that this report was included in the Crimewatch episode since it was pretty much the only report of a disturbance in the area of the Fiesta that involved a male and female? No one else noticed it, if it happened. Or they didn't come forward if they did.

The BT men not noticing anything isn't surprising is it? They were (one would assume/hope!) busy working, they surely took a break for lunch/bathroom if they were on the job all day, anyway someone parking a car isn't noteworthy and as you say we don't know where they were in relation to the car -- it's odd that detail isn't reported in AS as it very materially affects whether you place much weight on their not noticing something.

 

[Pinkizzy]

I'm thinking about the £3000 bonus that SJL was looking forward to collecting. It may have been winnings after she placed a bet on a horse race at Goodwood. Is there a betting shop near her house?

 

[Whitehall 1212]

The cab fare never came forward did he?
Am I right in thinking that this report was included in the Crimewatch episode since it was pretty much the only report of a disturbance in the area of the Fiesta that involved a male and female? No one else noticed it, if it happened. Or they didn't come forward if they did.

Hearsay report from cabbie of a "right ruck". I'm not aware if the fare expanded on this to the cabbie who reported it. People hear and assume it must be male v female and a white Fiesta involved.....who knows? Could be two pi**ed blokes having a barney!

 

[Terryb808]

It's a good assumption point to challenge, but if it's not what happened, we need some alternative idea of how her stuff came to be found outside a pub she did not frequent, why she didn't notice it had gone missing sooner, and how it came to move from Mossops or elsewhere to the PoW without being noticed or missed in the intervening 48 hours. She mentioned it at work on Monday. So presumably, if AL was right and she lost her stuff on Friday, it's quite surprising she didn't mention to anyone at work on Saturday, or indeed to anyone else before Monday.

I sort of wonder how AL knew she had lost her stuff at all, if she lost it on Friday. If he knew she had lost it, he would have known where it could be found. If he didn't know, he had scant chance to find out, because she barely talked to him over the weekend. He is the source for there having been a call on Sunday night, so she could only have mentioned it then - which also seems unlikely because by that time she probably hadn't lost it.

The idea that someone stole it from one place and "returned" it to another seems quite far-fetched. If you wanted to steal her stuff why give it back? Why not just bin it? If the idea was to get her to return to the PoW to collect it, aren't we then back at rather elaborate schemes to lure her there?

It’s just possible that SJL wasn’t aware she had lost her stuff until Monday and it was the contacts & phone numbers that she panics about, not the diary content.
CV went for a takeaway and as Cluesleuth suggests maybe he went to Mosdops and it was here he found her belongings.
It’s been over 30 years, so he may not be able to recall things that accurately.
If this is the case SJL lost her belongings on Friday when she left Mossops as AL said, they never went into the PoW.
IMO AL would have better recall than CV, just my opinion.

 

[Pinkizzy]

I'm thinking about the £3000 bonus that SJL was looking forward to collecting. It may have been winnings after she placed a bet on a horse race at Goodwood. Is there a betting shop near her house?

Yep, there's a betting shop on the corner of Disraeli Rd

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I'm thinking about the £3000 bonus that SJL was looking forward to collecting. It may have been winnings after she placed a bet on a horse race at Goodwood. Is there a betting shop near her house?

SJL was very careful and wise with her money according to AS. I cant see her putting enough on a flutter to win £3000.....£10 stake would need a 300-1 outsider, I think? Those kind of odds are something you might possibly get at the Grand National, over big jumps, but I doubt at many other races.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

IMO AL would have better recall than CV, just my opinion

Unless he had reasons to be telling 'porkies'......i.e. he was sleuthing on SJL's activities and 'returned' the items via the PoW and SJL's bank.

 

[asyousay]

Yes I still don’t rule out AL as the diary thief on the Friday night. He was openly being cheated on it seems and the relationship had run its course from SL perspective. So he could of easily of lifted it imo


It doesn’t make him a killer by any stretch. Just a jealous boyfriend who wanted to know what his girlfriend was getting up to.

IMO
MOO

 

[Cluesleuth]

I would think not many? Live league football had only gone on regular TV a couple of years previously. Racing coverage was scarce except for Saturdays and big races. English football on television - Wikipedia

Televised snooker was huge in the 80's

The 1986–87 snooker season was a series of snooker tournaments played between July 1986 and May 1987

 

[Cluesleuth]

Another point about the car in Stevenage Road is that the BT workers apparently saw 'nothing out of the ordinary'. That is not the same as 'never saw any white Fiesta at all'. It tends to undermine the James Galway man claim of 'a right ruck' - such a ruck that nobody noticed it. It doesn't necessarily mean the car can't have been there before 4pm.

AS book page 41
There were two workmen digging holes and laying pipes in Stevenage Rd, just yards from where Susannahs car was found. BC and his son cc were working outside in the road from 9-4. But neither saw nor heard anything unusual no screams, no groans, shouts or struggles.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

FYI Forensic search of Bristol pub after woman missing for ten years. Man arrested on suspicion of murder.

Claire Holland: Man re-arrested on suspicion of murder

Police have re-arrested a man over the murder of Claire Holland who went missing a decade ago.

www.bbc.co.uk

UK - UK - Claire Holland, 32, missing after night out in city centre, seen @ pub, Bristol, Jun 2012

Claire Holland: Bristol search fails to uncover significant evidence

www.websleuths.com

 

[Konstantin]

CV went for a takeaway and as Cluesleuth suggests maybe he went to Mosdops and it was here he found her belongings.
It’s been over 30 years, so he may not be able to recall things that accurately.

Was Mossops a posh place? If SJL and AL liked it I assume it was either trendy or upmarket.

I believe CV that he found the items where he said he did. Outside the pub door on the floor near the bench. But that does not mean they were dropped there. Someone could have found them and put them there. I wonder if when he talked to the police he gave a statement about it and that is why he recalled this detail. The only time I have given a statement was as a witness to a road accident where a pedestrian was run into on a zebra crossing by an idiot who just didn't stop. I am sure I only recall details of that now because I had to carefully recall them in a written statement. At the time, literally the day after, it probably seemed like nothing to him, an adult going missing the previous day. You'd expect her to turn up safe and well as is usually the case.

 

[Cluesleuth]

I think we may have the answer we have been looking for re the POW being open at lunchtime

DV bok page 183
This is CV recounting his conversation with the bank
'And they said to get in touch with her, and that she'd get in touch with me,' he carried on. ' I got a phone call back about dinner time, before we opened

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Was Mossops a posh place? If SJL and AL liked it I assume it was either trendy or upmarket.

I believe CV that he found the items where he said he did. Outside the pub door on the floor near the bench. But that does not mean they were dropped there. Someone could have found them and put them there. I wonder if when he talked to the police he gave a statement about it and that is why he recalled this detail. The only time I have given a statement was as a witness to a road accident where a pedestrian was run into on a zebra crossing by an idiot who just didn't stop. I am sure I only recall details of that now because I had to carefully recall them in a written statement. At the time, literally the day after, it probably seemed like nothing to him, an adult going missing the previous day. You'd expect her to turn up safe and well as is usually the case.

Regarding CV's recall. I suggest that to find such property as he did, would be comparatively unusual. Finding the property featured in part of a natural chain of action to endeavour to return it to the owner. CV was in control of this, it was not occurring outside of his control as in the RTC you witnessed and all in a compressed period of time.

For this reason CV will likely had very good short term memory of the finding and the subsequent events. This memory will very likely have been reinforced into a different and more permanent area of his memory once it was linked with the disappearance of SJL.

Your memory of the RTC will be in your long-term memory, but because of the speed of what happened you will most likely have an overall memory of the incident but maybe not the minute detail. Memory is laid down in different ways depending on the circumstances, tastes, smells, sounds, sense of touch, visual stimuli and emotions at the time. For example when Stephanie Slater (now sadly deceased) was being debriefed following her release by the kidnapper, Michael Sams, she was brought fish and chips, as Samms provided for her. The smell of the food prompted cognitive recall of the events through the olfactory memory.

In moments when we are threatened our body may react in amazing ways to focus on the threat. Imagine someone pointed a firearm directly at you. The bodies responses include closing down peripheral vision so that focus is only on the threat. Hearing may be restricted as the brain needs to focus on only the sensory inputs from the threat and not extraneous sounds to the side and behind.

It therefore is quite possible somewhat facing such a threat may not hear and see a police firearms officer shout a warning before shooting the subject with the firearm and recollection may therefore not be accurate.

Essentially memory is a science all in itself.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I think we may have the answer we have been looking for re the POW being open at lunchtime

DV bok page 183
Thus is CV recounting his conversation with the bank
'And they said to get in touch with her, and that she'd get in touch with me,' he carried on. ' I got a phone call back about dinner time, before we opened

Still very unclear:

Dinner time - down south is what northerners often call tea/supper. Tea down south can be mid/late afternoon. Supper can also be before bedtime.

Dinner time - up north is what southerners often call lunch

Was CV a northerner? Still needs confirming as it's misunderstandings such as this that can throw the pattern of events off so easily!

So "about dinner time, before we opened" could be 11:00 - 12:00 midday (depending on opening time) or some time before 18:00, as in the time that pubs used to open (closed 15:00 - 18:00) - depending on CV's vernacular.

Although, as SJL disappeared early afternoon and Sturgis colleagues say she spoke to the PoW before she left the office at approx 12:30 then it implies that CV understands "dinner time" be the mid day/early afternoon meal.