UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #4

[asyousay]

The witnesses were shown a video compilation, which included JC and he was positively identified. Sound may not have been used unless the witness heard JC speak when she saw him.

The original JC dating agency interview was shown on regional TV programme (HTV West - covering Bristol and the West Country) on the evening that JC was jailed for the murder of Shirley Banks, 28th April 1989.

The Operation Phoebus re-investigation team will have been exceptionally thorough in assessing the witnesses potential exposure to the regional TV programme and any wider circulation before 2000, which they will have established. Any likelihood of compromise will need to have been recorded and disclosed to the defence, in any subsequent prosecution.

This identification related to JC engaged in what seems like an an innocuous act, i.e. looking in an estate agents window in Fulham, is circumstantial evidence. In and of itself it is easily dismissed, but collectively with all the other evidence it supports JC being involved in SJL's disappearance.

The witness will have initially provided a statement of what she observed on that day and been asked to describe JC, and her reasons for remembering him, which of course would carry significant importance after an elapsed time of 14 years.

Only after this will the video identification procedure have been conducted in accordance with PACE 1984, by an identification procedure trained officer, entirely independent of the investigation.

Here is the original HTV West extended news article. It goes into significant depth about the dating video and the JC's offender profile.

JMO

I don’t understand how she claims he came across as fairly aggressive but he was a nice person.


I guess if you dress well and have a posh accent coming across as fairly Aggressive is somehow acceptable.

Moooo

 

[Whitehall 1212]

That's super helpful thanks. I admit I had the idea that some random person randomly remembered JC but that is not what happened. I assume the evidence/testimony is all weighted anyway.

Strengths and weaknesses in the evidence will be identified by the police, often in consultation with the CPS. The CPS will often advise how these areas of weakness can be narrowed.

Individual witness testimony has to stand up to scrutiny in its own right in court. If the defence counsel in cross-examination, can cast doubt on the witnesses probity as an individual or the reliability of their observations, then doubt may result in the juries mind regarding that witness or their evidence.

All evidence/information collected during the course of an investigation, except that subject to Public Interest Immunity, has to be disclosed to the defence via the CPS under the rules of disclosure, contained in the Criminal Procedures and Investigations Act 1996.

Any evidence/information that could:

a) Undermine the prosecution case
b) Support the defence case

is of particular relevance and must be highlighted to the defence.

So the defence will have access to ALL the statements. If the prosecution don't call one of their witnesses as the evidence doesn't support their case, then they could potentially be called by the defence.

 

[Cherwell]

I think we are discussing at cross-purposes. I am referring to the likelihood of strangers approaching SJL on the street, not in relation to her occupation.

I think it's a fair point. If someone noticed her during the course of her work activities and found her attractive, they might approach her by making some comment or enquiry about the house she was outside, hoping to fall into conversation.
It would be plausible and not come over as creepy.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

To be honest, the males who noticed her probably noticed her because she was attractive.

On a related note, DV went to try to find one of the male witnesses who saw SJL on Shorrolds. He appears to believe that the witnesses are somehow odd, or dodgy. He reports having issues tracking him down and this adds weight to his idea that the witnesses are somehow dodgy, since he cannot find him--does he exist? He finds a single reference to his one witness, and goes to the address, only to find a lady who is jointly listed with the male on the ER. The lady denies all knowledge of the witness.

My thoughts on this, FWIW-- the reference DV is talking about is a 20 year old public ER record available on a public site (but you need to pay to view the full address). I would not expect a 20 year old ER record in London to still have the same people living there, it would be very unusual (although not impossible, some people do not move). My experience of the site with the public ER records is the "living at the same address" records are often inaccurate so I would not take the woman DV spoke to who said she had no idea who the witness was as being mysterious or suspicious. Most likely, she has no idea who the dude is and if she did know, why would she talk to some random bloke who fetched up on her doorstep, and acted aggressive? I would tell someone to **** off if they did that to me.

But here;s the interesting thing about the witness name. I think it is a slight misprint in AS's book which is the source for DV's knowing the man's name. DV is right that there are no public records for the witness, that's because I suggest his name is slightly misspelled (one letter is wrong) and if you spell it right there is a male born 1966 of that name in Fulham. I'd say most likely that was the male witness, if AS gave the age of the witness as a young man (he'd have been 20).

All MOO obviously, it has no bearing on the case, just shows how tracking people down decades after the fact based on limited source material is hard to do.

ND - London, W9 with GH.

Other witness ND - 33 listed on the open register in London. Knock on a few doors, based on age range and see how you get on.....could get lucky! If not, regroup and reconsider the next course of action

Of course this all depends on them having the same name, living in London and being on the open register.

When witness provide statements they give details of full name, maiden name, address, dob, place of birth etc. Police can generally track them down years later, if necessary, using various databases, both internal and external.

 

[Pinkizzy]

I think we are discussing at cross-purposes. I am referring to the likelihood of strangers approaching SJL on the street, not in relation to her occupation.

Maybe I am talking a foreign language

If SJL (attractive lady) smiled at a male stranger in the street, wouldn't he smile back and say hello? You'd probably look down and rush off...

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I don’t understand how she claims he came across as fairly aggressive but he was a nice person.


I guess if you dress well and have a posh accent coming across as fairly Aggressive is somehow acceptable.

Moooo

My reading of what Caroline says, is that he had the veneer of a nice chap, but his aggression came through at times.......WARNING, WARNING.

I'm no psychologist but my understanding is that controlled assertiveness when needed, not naked aggression, is a quality that many women look for in a male? They certainly don't want a limp lettuce as far as I am aware.

Unfortunately we didn't see the whole video.

What would be very interesting to hear is JC discussing what he enjoys doing, his interests and his belief system. Surely a significant factor in finding the right person is either sharing some of the same interests and having an appreciation of similar things. To me that is because JC is not interested in sharing, just dominating and he is the only one that matters.

He comes across as having given no thought to the qualities of the woman he is seeking, except when he replies "apart from the physical", because physical attributes is all he is interested in.....a trophy.....narcissism at play.

JMO

 

[Whitehall 1212]

If SJL (attractive lady) smiled at a male stranger in the street, wouldn't he smile back and say hello? You'd probably look down and rush off...

Hell, if an attractive woman smiles at me, I smile back, say "hello", compliment the smile......and then rush off.....to buy a lottery ticket

 

[Konstantin]

My reading of what Caroline says, is that he had the veneer of a nice chap, but his aggression came through at times.......WARNING, WARNING.

I'm no psychologist but my understanding is that controlled assertiveness when needed, not naked aggression, is a quality that many women look for in a male? They certainly don't want a limp lettuce as far as I am aware.

Unfortunately we didn't see the whole video.

What would be very interesting to hear is JC discussing what he enjoys doing, his interests and his belief system. Surely a significant factor in finding the right person is either sharing some of the same interests and having an appreciation of similar things. To me that is because JC is not interested in sharing, just dominating and he is the only one that matters.

He comes across as having given no thought to the qualities of the woman he is seeking, except when he replies "apart from the physical", because physical attributes is all he is interested in.....a trophy.....narcissism at play.

JMO

I wonder if he just made up some interests that he thought sounded posh or interesting or the sorts of things that wealthy or successful men are supposed to enjoy. Perhaps his mask would have slipped quite fast if he talked about his belief system though.

Interesting that he chose an agency with video since that was presumably a novelty back then. Perhaps he wanted to show himself off as he thought he was all that, and/or enjoyed the attention from the women who filmed him. Perhaps he always wanted to be on film... he seems to like being notorious.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I wonder if he just made up some interests that he thought sounded posh or interesting or the sorts of things that wealthy or successful men are supposed to enjoy. Perhaps his mask would have slipped quite fast if he talked about his belief system though.

Interesting that he chose an agency with video since that was presumably a novelty back then. Perhaps he wanted to show himself off as he thought he was all that, and/or enjoyed the attention from the women who filmed him. Perhaps he always wanted to be on film... he seems to like being notorious.

The traits of the overt narcissist.

Overt and Covert Narcissism

Overt and Covert Narcissism reveals The Two Faces Of Narcissism; The Arrogant Overt Narcissist, and The Shy Covert Narcissist .

narcissisticbehavior.net

JMO

 

[Konstantin]

The traits of the overt narcissist.

Overt and Covert Narcissism

Overt and Covert Narcissism reveals The Two Faces Of Narcissism; The Arrogant Overt Narcissist, and The Shy Covert Narcissist .

narcissisticbehavior.net

JMO

His attempts to control police interviews is also part of this IMO.

I wonder if the police ever got to the bottom of who was sending SJL flowers to her home? Obviously whoever did it knew her address. Was she in the phone book? I do wonder also if there was a connection between whoever was stalking her, if someone was indeed stalking her (and not just a one-off flowers sent by some hopeful) and her possibly stolen personal items. If so, then stealing them could have meant unsettling her (which didn't seem to have happened, so perhaps that was not the aim) as well as finding out more about her. Underhanded, controlling? Or all just a coincidence and they fell out of her bag...

 

[Whitehall 1212]

His attempts to control police interviews is also part of this IMO.

I wonder if the police ever got to the bottom of who was sending SJL flowers to her home? Obviously whoever did it knew her address. Was she in the phone book? I do wonder also if there was a connection between whoever was stalking her, if someone was indeed stalking her (and not just a one-off flowers sent by some hopeful) and her possibly stolen personal items. If so, then stealing them could have meant unsettling her (which didn't seem to have happened, so perhaps that was not the aim) as well as finding out more about her. Underhanded, controlling? Or all just a coincidence and they fell out of her bag...

My thoughts exactly.

Florists will record who sends delivered flowers. I wonder if enquiries were made of the florists within a certain radius of Sturgis, Fulham and Disraeli Road, Putney, for the personal and payment details provided by those that sent flowers within a certain time period? Definitely a reasonable line of enquiry.

The 'mislaid' property is quite specific. Now of course SJL could have taken them from her bag and forgot to replace them....or they could have all been together and dropped out, but I would expect SJL or at least someone to notice that.

However, for me, particularly considering what the items were and the way they were found at the PoW, I think they were 'borrowed' for information. In terms of motive, means and opportunity - AL*, and as the information states that JC frequented the PoW he can't be ruled out, but it wouldn't be that easy for him to snaffle them I would have thought?

*AL was ruled out of any involvement in SJL's disappearance.

JMO

 

[Cherwell]

One thing I keep thinking about.
It's always said that murderers won't give up their secrets because it gives them a sense of control.
But are there never any cases where they do eventually spill the beans?

If JC is really terminally ill, with nothing left to lose, I could imagine him wanting to show off how clever he was and bragging about the crimes he wasn't caught for.

the information states that JC frequented the PoW he can't be ruled out

What's the source for that? I don't think I've come across that anywhere yet.

 

[Konstantin]

Florists will record who sends delivered flowers. I wonder if enquiries were made of the florists within a certain radius of Sturgis, Fulham and Disraeli Road, Putney, for the personal and payment details provided by those that sent flowers within a certain time period? Definitely a reasonable line of enquiry.

Back in those days I expect someone would most likely have had to go in person and pay in person as not many people would have had cards to pay over the phone?

However, for me, particularly considering what the items were and the way they were found at the PoW, I think they were 'borrowed' for information. In terms of motive, means and opportunity - AL*, and as the information states that JC frequented the PoW he can't be ruled out, but it wouldn't be that easy for him to snaffle them I would have thought?

They were not stolen for the usual purposes anyway, or why dump the chequebook?
SJL didn't seem to be worried about it at least her colleagues didn't seem to report her being upset or freaked out. Maybe she was just an outwardly calm person though. And professional, as she was at work.
If the stuff fell out in Mossops on Friday you'd expect the staff to know who SJL was as she frequented the place and lived locally.

If JC is really terminally ill, with nothing left to lose, I could imagine him wanting to show off how clever he was and bragging about the crimes he wasn't caught for.

Yes, I wonder if he might say something. In the Ch5 documentary there is a snippet of video where he is talking about how he's done things he hasn't been caught for isn't there? That is bragging. He seems to brag without being able to help it, like an impulse control issue, then tries to hedge or walk it back a bit.
I wonder how he would have gone on if he were interviewed by a female police officer? I assume he would not like that.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

One thing I keep thinking about.
It's always said that murderers won't give up their secrets because it gives them a sense of control.
But are there never any cases where they do eventually spill the beans?

If JC is really terminally ill, with nothing left to lose, I could imagine him wanting to show off how clever he was and bragging about the crimes he wasn't caught for.


What's the source for that? I don't think I've come across that anywhere yet.

Re JC at the POW

Former work colleague at 12 mins 45 seconds
AL at 16 mins 40 seconds in.....spot the rapid blink rate! Meaning....possibly stress.

The segment immediately before is JD discussing the SC DNA evidence in the red Ford Sierra - probability of SC sharing the partial profile with approx 1:40000. Too low to present in cou.t

To my mind this video and the Channel 5 offering (The Vanishing of Suzy Lamplugh) together with AS are required watching/reading, more than once, to get a firm handle on the case.

I'm not sure how much reliability I would place on either the researcher or the former work colleague and the link between the PoW and what she says.....she doesn't mention the PoW....possibly clever merging!

I'd certainly like to find the original source of this PoW information. That the police didn't say it, doesn't mean it's not in their domain though. If it was, it would form part of their circumstantial evidence. Maybe it features in the interview tapes that the Sun got hold of! Who knows?

JMO

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I wonder how he would have gone on if he were interviewed by a female police officer? I assume he would not like that.

Suspect interviews are conducted with two officers. One is generally the lead and the other makes notes of particular suspect comments that identify further questions, which are then used to firm up the suspects answers. These firmed up answers will be used in the challenge phase, when the evidence is presented, which contradicts the suspects bolted down version of the events. The challenge phase is towards the end of, what may be a series of interviews. These may take place over a number of days.

The initial interviews are gentle to encourage the suspects free recall and to get them to talk....whether it's lies or not.....let them talk....and JC loves the sound of his own voice.

Now two female officers, one very attractive, well dressed and well spoken and the other deliberately not so. With the very attractive officer leading the interview and the second officer sitting back...would have been an exceptionally interesting dynamic. I wonder if it would have encouraged JC to conduct himself very differently and possibly give away much more....I wonder if the police thought of doing this or even if they tried it in other interviews?

At a tangent. The name of the car dealer that JC said he bought SB's mini from, he gave as Philip Hodson or Philip Hodgkinson.....the latter being the surname of a former boyfriend of SJL. Could be something or nothing when considering SJL's 'mislaid' diary and possibly the postcard.....JC loved playing games. See 22 mins 25 seconds of the link below:

JMO

 

[Konstantin]

Now two female officers, one very attractive, well dressed and well spoken and the other deliberately not so. With the very attractive officer leading the interview and the second officer sitting back a bit...would have been an exceptionally interesting dynamic. I wonder if it would have encouraged JC to conduct himself very differently and possibly give away much more....I wonder if the police thought of doing it or even if they tried it in other interviews?

Definitely would be interesting to see how he would react to that, given his whole dynamic with women was control, power, hatred. And the fact he believes he is terribly clever.

It's also striking how much SB resembles SJL at least in the photo of her that was released to the press. Maybe it's just the hairstyle though...

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Definitely would be interesting to see how he would react to that, given his whole dynamic with women was control, power, hatred. And the fact he believes he is terribly clever.

It's also striking how much SB resembles SJL at least in the photo of her that was released to the press. Maybe it's just the hairstyle though...

Amongst other thing, he may have tried to shock them with graphic detail....as a means of power play. I guess we'll never know.

Yes, his arrogant belief in his omnipotence is his downfall.

JMO

 

[Whitehall 1212]

What's the source for that? I don't think I've come across that anywhere yet.

UK - UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #4

The witnesses were shown a video compilation, which included JC and he was positively identified. Sound may not have been used unless the witness heard JC speak when she saw him. The original JC dating agency interview was shown on regional TV programme (HTV West - covering Bristol and the...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

AS's book documents DL, both before and after SJL went missing, as someone who wanted to manage the family dynamic almost to the point of exhaustion and also how the Lamplugh's are perceived by the wider family, friends and the outside world.

I think that this may have hindered the investigation to some degree, as SJL's personal life came under the microscope as a line of enquiry. DL was unaccepting of what she saw as negative revelations about SJL, causing the investigation team be economical in what they told her and which possibly prevented friends and associates from talking freely about the SJL they knew, warts and all, which may otherwise have led to the line of enquiry which solved the crime.

JMO

I understand the point you're making here but would detectives really stay away from certain areas simply in order to appease a grieving and shocked mother's feelings?

Is that really how it works? I find that slightly hard to believe but you would know better than me.

JMO MOO

 

[asyousay]

I understand the point you're making here but would detectives really stay away from certain areas simply in order to appease a grieving and shocked mother's feelings?

Is that really how it works? I find that slightly hard to believe but you would know better than me.

JMO MOO

Yes I have never heard of parents having sway over a case before.


It seems like one detective didn’t like her as well. So doesn’t seem like they would hold back to protect her. I can understand DL not wanting Suzys old friends to not feed the tabloids as well.