UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #4

[Terryb808]

yes, i agree. suzy went to 37 shorrolds rd. i believe she had the keys and paperwork.

If you list the possibilities and add For & Against, then give them a score based on how likely they are to be correct. Shorrolds Road comes out top of the list.

This is heavily influenced by the witnesses that came forward after the police appeal / reconstruction. Prior to this they basically had nothing to go on.

It’s clear people generally matching the description HR gave were at Shorrolds Road, however, they were never clearly identified as either Suzy Lamplugh or John Cannan.

According to AS’s book until the police made this appeal the residents of Shorrolds Road said they saw nothing out of the ordinary that day. So ask yourself how did they miss what the two ND’s said happened and the double parked cars highlighted by RT?

IMO EH & RT are important witnesses, their accounts tend to back each other up and I can see why the police spent so much time looking for the BMW 2000 series RT said he was.

The odd coincidence is that JH lived some 15 doors away from 37 Shorrolds Road, was nicknamed Kipper and owned a BMW, and his brother was a Sturgis client.

If there’s any significance in the diary entry for Mr Kipper, this one jumps out at you.

 

[RichardKimble]

Hey people, is there a list to who the initials refer to, I know who SL, JC, DV and AS are but the rest I struggle with, thanks.

 

[RichardKimble]

Someone who almost certainly wasn't her, drove her car and hurriedly abandoned it, parked awkwardly with the driver's door unlocked and slightly blocking the access to the garage, where it was found. That much we know. It's a 'hard fact' as they say on other threads.

If narratives don't fit in with the hard facts, then they can't apply.

I can see her driving there with a passenger who then got her out of the car albeit reluctantly on her part by pushing the seat back to drag her out . Incidentally is it known what the police make of it, after all they have one suspect and one only, the abandoned car must fit in a narrative of the LE surely.

 

[RichardKimble]

Why would they millions park their cars daily without it being significant.

Agreed, then just say SL met the Mr Kipper at No37, why would some one going about their lawful business attract attention.

 

[Cluesleuth]

3 minutes away from Stevenage and Shorrolds rd in 1999 in broad daylight at 11.30am on a residential st Jill Dando was shot dead on her doorstep her body lay in the doorway for 15-17 minutes before being discovered.
Two neighbours reported they had heard 'a scream'.

SJL case AS book page 41
Two housewives seperately reported hearing screams during the afternoon, one a 'spooky, high pitched yowl'

Where were these screams heard?
Were they in or near where the 'right ruck in the street' was seen.
Were they near the abandoned Fiesta in Stevenage road.
Where they in Shorrolds road?

Finding the answers could be important to how things played out that day.
JMO

 

[WestLondoner]

I think so too. The only thing I partially agree with is that 'Kipper' is a really naff pseudonym to lure someone somewhere. Surely you'd use something plain like 'Johnson' and not something obviously fake.

'Mr Kipper' sounds like a codeword you might write in your diary to remind you to do something that you don't want to spell out in plain English that other people might read.

MOO, no relevant skills.

Kipper is a completely preposterous name and especially so if the claim is that Cannan used it. In no particular order,

• how was it established that he was known by anyone as Kipper before 1989? Presumably the source was other criminals; are they all truthful?
• what was the origin of the supposed nickname, as there seem to be several. He wore kipper ties (in 1986? and before that, didn't he wear a prison uniform?), he kipped a lot (did he?), Kipper is 'kidnapper' with the DNA removed - which was it?
• why on earth would you use your prison nickname, if such it was, to conceal your identity, given it leads right back to you? It would be like Machine-Gun Kelly cunningly booking viewings in the name of Mr. Machine-Gun, or Pretty Boy Floyd doing so as Mr. Pretty-Boy. Them flatfoots, they'll never catch me! Yeah, right.
• As terry says above, why was his alias Mr Kipper here but Mr Peterson or Mr Unremarkable every other time?

On the principle of parsimony, the likeliest explanation to me is that the first name that came into SJL's head when she thought of Shorrolds Road was ole Kipper, a bloke she knew who lived there. This begs the question of why Shorrolds Road, of course. But if she thought she was going to a genuine viewing, why did she put in a fake name?

 

[WestLondoner]

I can see her driving there with a passenger who then got her out of the car albeit reluctantly on her part by pushing the seat back to drag her out . Incidentally is it known what the police make of it, after all they have one suspect and one only, the abandoned car must fit in a narrative of the LE surely.

The passenger door was found locked, the driver's door open. So if she drove there, the passenger would have had to wait for her to get out, then climb across the seat to do the same, pushing it back at the same time. Makes no sense - why not just open the passenger door?

 

[WestLondoner]

Agreed, then just say SL met the Mr Kipper at No37, why would some one going about their lawful business attract attention.

This point, for me, impeaches the supposed earliest sightings. Nothing about what ND saw seems worth remembering, so why did he?

Interestingly the police in 2000 thought there may have been more than one abductor, although why you'd attach credence to someone who rocks up after 14 years I can't think.

The hunt for the killer of Suzy Lamplugh has been re-opened after a new witness came forward claiming to have seen the estate agent alive shortly after her abduction 14 years ago, police said yesterday.

Detectives also disclosed for the first time that Ms Lamplugh may have been seized by more than one person.

The new witness is believed to have reported seeing Ms Lamplugh, 25, being driven in her Ford Fiesta car in Fulham, West London, at lunchtime on 28 July 1986 shortly after she had been taken from a house that she had been due to show a prospective buyer, who called himself "Mr Kipper".

Details about the new evidence and witness, who approached the police following fresh publicity about the case in December, have been kept secret.

It had previously been assumed that her Ford Fiesta had been driven directly to Stevenage Road and abandoned 80 minutes later. But the new witness evidence suggests the vehicle, registration B396 GAN, may gone by a different route, possibly dropping off the estate agent at an address in West London on the way.

The same article reports the police as not thinking it worth searching the Norton Barracks area in 2000. They actually did so three times, in 2000, 2010 and 2016 - so much for the MSM!

 

[Terryb808]

The passenger door was found locked, the driver's door open. So if she drove there, the passenger would have had to wait for her to get out, then climb across the seat to do the same, pushing it back at the same time. Makes no sense - why not just open the passenger door?

Exactly, wherever she went, she got out thinking she’d be a few minutes and never got back in.
Her purse in the side pocket says this is what happened, supported by the locked passenger door and the unlocked drivers door.
Further to this the hurried way the car was abandoned adds weight to this conclusion.

So she drove somewhere, exited her car, was then (maybe) abducted and her car hurriedly abandoned in Stevenage Road.

IMO this narrative fits how the car was left, if this is the case SJL was never seen driving along the Fulham Palace Road towards Hammersmith with a male passenger at her side.

Three possibilities come to mind:
1. A complex abduction from Shorrolds Road involving multiple perpetrators.

2. SJL went straight to a location near Stevenage Road, was restrained and held there, then her car quickly moved to Stevenage Road where it was found.

3. She went to the PoW as per DV’s book, her car being abandoned between 3.00 & 5.00pm that afternoon.

Each has its merits, scenario 1 would be difficult to conceal if there were multiple people involved, someone is likely to let something slip.

While Scenarios 2 & 3 may just involve a single perpetrator and in that case no one else would know anything about it.

 

[RichardKimble]

The passenger door was found locked, the driver's door open. So if she drove there, the passenger would have had to wait for her to get out, then climb across the seat to do the same, pushing it back at the same time. Makes no sense - why not just open the passenger door?

She locked the door hoping to stop whom ever, forgetting the drivers door in a panic.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

JC often used common names like Johnson, so why in this instance change his MO and use the really obvious false name Mr Kippet.

Yep a con artist would be using a name appropriate to the scam and completely disconnected from their true identity. Kipper is a name that jars. It sounds very odd, very unlikely, and is memorable.

Is it possible the vintage BMW car spotted on Stevenage Rd that was stolen from the wealthy Mr Kuiper in europe was stolen by people who had also acquired some of his paperwork / documentation and that person or small group of people was seeking to perpetuate ongoing financial scams using that identity (effectively identity theft / fraud)? They could have been looking to cash buy properties in a fake ID?

 

[RichardKimble]

Exactly, wherever she went, she got out thinking she’d be a few minutes and never got back in.
Her purse in the side pocket says this is what happened, supported by the locked passenger door and the unlocked drivers door.
Further to this the hurried way the car was abandoned adds weight to this conclusion.

So she drove somewhere, exited her car, was then (maybe) abducted and her car hurriedly abandoned in Stevenage Road.

IMO this narrative fits how the car was left, if this is the case SJL was never seen driving along the Fulham Palace Road towards Hammersmith with a male passenger at her side.

Three possibilities come to mind:
1. A complex abduction from Shorrolds Road involving multiple perpetrators.

2. SJL went straight to a location near Stevenage Road, was restrained and held there, then her car quickly moved to Stevenage Road where it was found.

3. She went to the PoW as per DV’s book, her car being abandoned between 3.00 & 5.00pm that afternoon.

Each has its merits, scenario 1 would be difficult to conceal if there were multiple people involved, someone is likely to let something slip.

While Scenarios 2 & 3 may just involve a single perpetrator and in that case no one else would know anything about it.

Point 2, why need for musical cars, if restrained near Stevenage road why not just make off, moving the car then coming back to where ever close by leaves room for SL if still alive to raise the alarm.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I can see her driving there with a passenger who then got her out of the car albeit reluctantly on her part by pushing the seat back to drag her out . Incidentally is it known what the police make of it, after all they have one suspect and one only, the abandoned car must fit in a narrative of the LE surely.

I agree with that and also dragging her out if she was already deceased - but - not dragging her out if she was alive on a residential street in daylight hours.

Personally I can't understand the LE narrative whatsoever and it hasn't had enough veracity to pass muster with the CPS. We are encouraged to believe there is evidence not known to the public but we don't know if that's true or not so there's nothing really to say.

 

[Cluesleuth]

Was SJl done 'Done Up like a Kipper?

World Wide Words: Stitched up like a kipper

'Stitched up like a kipper' is a weird conflation of two older English slang phrases.

www.worldwidewords.org

 

[WestLondoner]

Kipper is also WW2 submariner slang for 'torpedo'. Perhaps the secret evidence shows JC had access to a submarine?

 

[Cluesleuth]

Unusual that police made no reference to any jewellery SJl was wearing on the day. Earrings, watch, maybe a necklace.
Items like these could easily be lost in a struggle, left deliberately to leave a trail, pawned or be identifying items if found at a dposition site.

 

[asyousay]

Agreed, then just say SL met the Mr Kipper at No37, why would some one going about their lawful business attract attention.

Because Men notice attractive women I would of thought.

 

[Cherwell]

I can see her driving there with a passenger who then got her out of the car albeit reluctantly on her part by pushing the seat back to drag her out

It would be extremely difficult to do that. I'm not 100% sure about 1980s models, but in the Fiestas I've had the lever for moving the seat back and forth is under the front of the driver's seat.

The passenger door was found locked, the driver's door open. So if she drove there, the passenger would have had to wait for her to get out, then climb across the seat to do the same, pushing it back at the same time. Makes no sense - why not just open the passenger door?

Not at all. You could lock the passenger door by getting out, pressing the 'lock' handle and slamming the door.

A friend of mine doesn't drive and when he's a passenger with me, he automatically does that every time he gets out of the car. Not necessary now with central locking, but the habit is deeply ingrained with him

 

[WiseOwl]

Exactly, wherever she went, she got out thinking she’d be a few minutes and never got back in.
Her purse in the side pocket says this is what happened, supported by the locked passenger door and the unlocked drivers door.
Further to this the hurried way the car was abandoned adds weight to this conclusion.

So she drove somewhere, exited her car, was then (maybe) abducted and her car hurriedly abandoned in Stevenage Road.

IMO this narrative fits how the car was left, if this is the case SJL was never seen driving along the Fulham Palace Road towards Hammersmith with a male passenger at her side.

Three possibilities come to mind:
1. A complex abduction from Shorrolds Road involving multiple perpetrators.

2. SJL went straight to a location near Stevenage Road, was restrained and held there, then her car quickly moved to Stevenage Road where it was found.

3. She went to the PoW as per DV’s book, her car being abandoned between 3.00 & 5.00pm that afternoon.

Each has its merits, scenario 1 would be difficult to conceal if there were multiple people involved, someone is likely to let something slip.

While Scenarios 2 & 3 may just involve a single perpetrator and in that case no one else would know anything about it.

How about:

2. 54 Shorrolds Road.

Near enough?

 

[WestLondoner]

Because Men notice attractive women I would of thought.

Maybe, but forget them just as quickly, surely.