UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #5

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Yes - although there are more innocent possible explanations of what went on at the PoW, there is also this rather dark one. On the morning of 28 July CV speaks to SJL and it's arranged that she come to the pub at 6. A buyer then asks SJL for an appointment at 6, and this takes priority because £££. So SJL reschedules the pub visit for right now. She goes to the PoW and dies there.

Next morning the police turn up at the pub seeking the lost property. CV simply says Yes, she was supposed to come at 6pm, but she never turned up. At this stage he does not know what the police know, so he does not know of the 6pm appointment elsewhere, so he does not know she can't possibly have intended to go there at 6.

A year later, when he's reinterviewed, the disappearance has been all over the press. He would certainly have seen the diary and its 6pm viewing that proves she never, as he had claimed, arranged with him to come over at that time. So that claim can't stand up and he needs to change last year's story. He now says that she just said 'later', that there were calls to the pub for her which 'prove' that others knew she was headed there (so he wasn't the only one who knew), and that he told the police all this at the time. If the police have lost the details, well, that's just silly old PC Plod for you.

When you layer in the detail that the missing stuff was discovered on the Sunday, and was not lost on Friday at either the PoW or at Mossop's (per AL's two different accounts), you do get the impression of some mysterious meeting going on there.

We've previously discussed the fact that in 1986 all phones were landline and tethered to the hallway or living room wall. If SJL wanted to have a private conversation without the lodger eavesdropping she couldn't use the landline unless he was out. On her way back from the beach on Sunday, she had a phone call to make (which AL claims was with him) but had no way of knowing if Roger the Lodger would be out when she got home. If he were in she'd have to go out again to make that call from a box, which would look odd - so she stops en route at the PoW and loses her stuff there.

I am not sure there was such a thing as an innocent escort service even in the 80s. As far as I am aware 'escort' has always been a euphemism for 'up market hooker whom you book for the night'. It's completely conceivable that SJL was doing this and in effect making a side job out of her hobby. But if so, the money would surely have left a trace?

Cash, ‘innocent’ promotional work def did go on & taking businessman on UK tours etc, hostessing etc but take your point & could be a grey area. The funding of her lifestyle confused police as did not tally with her income. Going out with ‘Arab princes’ to escort to Establishment balls was said to be above board etc. Why & how? Poss through work as he was in the property industry. Esp chilling as JC had form for signing up with agencies.

You make an interesting point here & I have thought similarly on the 6pm apt, the devil in the details & this has been lost & overlooked. What you say might somehow make sense of that very last call, apparently with CV’s wife, where she was anxious to leave the office & half sitting half standing. Was this altering the pick up time?

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

YES, in AS book SLP talked to the landlords wife on the phone, then arranged to pick up her missing belongings that night after work, but clive tells DV he talked to SLP. DV does try to contact the wife, but she blows him out, and wont even verify if she talked to SLP that day.

I think there was some back & forth with pub, NB: very last rushed call, seconds before SL leaves office.

 

[lee sumner]

Agree with all of this but also to add, the mid 80s was peak Margaret Thatcher and her version of capitalism / feminism telling women they could go out and work the same as a man.

So there was a version of so called female empowerment that was 'women can have it all' which actually meant 'you too can wear a suit and do a so-called man's job in finance or management or something in the city wheeling and dealing'. It was also the cocaine and champagne years for high earners.

I wonder if SJL had fully adopted this new found aspiration for women and simply wanted to make a chunk of money on her own terms in a traditionally male dominated world? Estate agency has always been a dodgy sector and IMO even still is for various reasons not least of which money laundering, mortgage frauds, fake valuation statements in favour of one client or another, and in London the most cut-throat city in London.

If she had lots of male contacts it's because she was dealing with and maybe schmoozing male contacts, potential investors, vendors, lenders, etc? Maybe she really wanted to make a big chunk of money. Maybe she was greedy? Maybe she was deceiving or betraying her boss? Or at least double crossing people or playing people? Greed can be corrupting and also lead to poor insight. Not victim blaming here, just wondering how she was thinking of herself and her position in her 'industry'.

good point about thatcher/1980s attitude etc. i think SLP was very ambitious, and was wanting to make serious money on her own. didnt she tell friends she would be driving a BMW by 1989.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Do we think she only speaks to the pub around 12:45 & this is first & only (?) communication? And only speaks to CV’s wife? As DV points out no one thought pub & lost items had any relevance.

 

[WestLondoner]

Just watching The Suzy Lamplugh mystery on Sky and the number plate is definitely interesting.

Having the initials and 86 year she was kidnapped what are the odds?

Possibly quite high.

Number plates were to a degree local and Cannan was a car salesman so he'd have known this. As well as being common around Bristol, the SLP combination has the advantage of not looking like the original number plate of SB's car. Likewise, the S suffix makes sense in that there were only a limited number of suffixes you could have on a Mini given the years when they were in production. Cannan would have known this too. SJL's initials weren't SLP either, of course. The number, 386, just looks random to me. If you ask people to give you a number between 1 and 5, more than 20% will say '3', because it's the one in the middle. People like Derren Brown make good money out of predicting this kind of stuff. If the SLP and the 86 are somehow significant, then you have to wonder who victim #3 was, as nobody has ever been proposed AFAIK.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

The other key point is the night before she went missing she spoke at length to her father about a joint deal with someone injecting thousands so she could afford to buy a better house/flat. They could then use address for post. The fact they never came forward meant they had something to hide.

Dave Gardner, Crime correspondent, 7 Feb 1987, Daily Mail:

‘She was only interested in fashionable West London homes she could not afford’. [PL] ‘She told her father that a client at the estate agency had offered to put money into a property they would own jointly’.

DL adds ‘the last thing she said to me was don’t ask me about the flat I will tell you all about it when it is settled’.

[Later airbrushed/forgotten/overlooked or revised to ‘Life is for living’].
‘She talked to him about it at some length, we just wish we’d taken it more seriously’.

‘When we told the police what we had remembered they were quite angry’

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Possibly quite high.

Number plates were to a degree local and Cannan was a car salesman so he'd have known this. As well as being common around Bristol, the SLP combination has the advantage of not looking like the original number plate of SB's car. Likewise, the S suffix makes sense in that there were only a limited number of suffixes you could have on a Mini given the years when they were in production. Cannan would have known this too. SJL's initials weren't SLP either, of course. The number, 386, just looks random to me. If you ask people to give you a number between 1 and 5, more than 20% will say '3', because it's the one in the middle. People like Derren Brown make good money out of predicting this kind of stuff. If the SLP and the 86 are somehow significant, then you have to wonder who victim #3 was, as nobody has ever been proposed AFAIK.

SC

 

[Woodburnbay]

Where was Claudia in 2006? What were the dates of their disappearances?

AIUI, Claudia Lawrence's disappearance involves people who have implied their involvement in her likely death by refusal to co-operate with the inquiry into it. It is a group of her mutual acquaintances now in Cyprus, IIRC. Arguably, this is not that much of a mystery. She quite likely knew and crossed someone homicidal, who killed her for it. She was clearly taken by an acquaintance, because she disappeared on her way to work at about 6am. Random abductors aren't going to be looking for victims at 6am, so this someone who knew her route to work. CL herself was obviously happy to accept a lift.

The Lubbock killing at Michael Barrymore's house is similar. There is a limited list of just a handful of people who could have done it, but they've all closed ranks. They could all be involved (which is my guess - if you didn't kill someone why would you protect somebody who did?)...

Both cases tell us that when it's not a deranged random attacker off the street, then it's probably about sex, or money, or drugs. The Lamplugh investigations came up empty on finding a sex, money, or drugs angle, leaving the other one.

Claudia lived in Malton, Near York in 2006. She moved to Heworth in York around 2008 as she had a new job and the shift patterns, normally 06;00 to 14:00 were difficult. In late 2008 she moved to a house on Heworth Road, where it is alleged she went missing from.

This Claudia information is not completely correct. I will correct:

Claudia's 4 mutual acquaintances who were arrested but not charged due to CPS not finding sufficient evidence were all from York area and known to her, she used to drink with them at the local pub in Heworth a few doors from her house.
The 4 refused to cooperate with the enquiry. Today, they all still live in the area of Heworth / York where she went missing.

None have moved to Cyprus. The Cyprus connection was never proven other than she had a call with a friend from Cyprus the evening around her going missing. The friend was an acquaintance of the Landlord of the pub Claudia frequented. Claudia had not been to the pub since the Sunday prior to her disappearance, this was unusual.
Claudia was last seen on CCTV walking home from work on 18th March 2009.

There is no evidence that she disappeared on her way to work on 19th march 2009-CCTV footage of her walk to work that day does not show her.

There was activity around her house fro c 19:00 on 18th March the evening before her missing and she last spoke to anyone (her parents separately) c 20:00 and 20:30 that evening.
There was more suspicious activity around her house at c 5:00 0n 19th March 2009, the next morning.
She would normally have set off for work c 05:15 -05:45, depending if walking or taking a lift.

There is no evidence to suggest that Claudia was even at home that evening. Other than she spoke to her Mum c 20:00 and was watching the same TV programs, it was on in the background.

There is no evidence to state the time she went missing.
She did not turn up for work on 19th March, workplace did not advise anyone.
The next day a friend was worried for her as she did not turn up for a pre arranged drink on the first evening of 19th march that she was missing.

Her friend advised her father who assisted by the Pub landlord searched her house on 20th March-When she was not at home they reported her missing to police.
There were some 40 hours that had passed before she was last known to be alive and being reported missing-The "Golden Hour" had passed.

 

[WestLondoner]

Most pubs in the UK were open all day on weekdays 11am to 11pm was the hours back then.

This didn't happen until two years later in fact - August 1988. In July 1986, pubs could open from 11 until 3 then had to close until 6. If SJL was not at that pub by 3 she would not have found it open until 6.

I'd still like to know who was at that pub that morning. Did they complete the handover by noon so the pub could open for lunch, or so the landlord could get away having no intention of opening?

Essentially pro criminals will steal a car and as you say put plates on that match another car of the same make and colour.
This happens today as it did back in the 80’s, it’s a lot easier today because we no longer have tax discs in the front window.

It was easier in one way in the 80s in that you could just walk into a car accessories shop off the street and they'd make up a plate for you. Nowadays they want ID and the V5 and they record what plates they've made. So today, to fake a plate you'd have to do it yourself. Faking the letters and numbers would be easy because you could download the font, make a mask and spray paint the numbers - but I don't know where you'd get the blank plates from.

 

[lee sumner]

The press. Will find article & quote/post. Interesting isn’t it. Shows her in Wales for her May Birthday. Tragic.

thanks. its very interesting. i thought SLP would have spent her 25th birthday with AL, but obviously she did not. i was curious about what she did on her last birthday. cant wait to read article.

 

[WestLondoner]

thanks. its very interesting. i thought SLP would have spent her 25th birthday with AL, but obviously she did not. i was curious about what she did on her last birthday. cant wait to read article.

At either DL's behest or off his own bat, AL has edited SJL's life for public consumption.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Possibly quite high.

Number plates were to a degree local and Cannan was a car salesman so he'd have known this. As well as being common around Bristol, the SLP combination has the advantage of not looking like the original number plate of SB's car. Likewise, the S suffix makes sense in that there were only a limited number of suffixes you could have on a Mini given the years when they were in production. Cannan would have known this too. SJL's initials weren't SLP either, of course. The number, 386, just looks random to me. If you ask people to give you a number between 1 and 5, more than 20% will say '3', because it's the one in the middle. People like Derren Brown make good money out of predicting this kind of stuff. If the SLP and the 86 are somehow significant, then you have to wonder who victim #3 was, as nobody has ever been proposed AFAIK.

SC

At either DL's behest or off his own bat, AL has edited SJL's life for public consumption.

I think this is what causes confusion.

AL protects SL’s honour & acts nobly, poss if DV was right & SL potentially saw someone else on Sunday eve, by saying things lost prior to Sun eve. In fact, on the Friday, when she was getting her hair highlighted, cut & blow dried. This overlooked too.

In the oft quoted Doc in 2000, AL states they frequented POW, a tube pit stop & not their cup of tea, & things lost then & poss JC hanging around. [He then denies, they liked middle class Mossops].

By then JC is ONLY suspect & unusually named as so by police, SO AL can protect SL & poss fudge things to protect, as this is perfectly ok. With clear conscience. What does it matter, all roads lead to JC, so unpacking SL’s movements is no one’s business.

Unfortunately, Sunday’s movements, timeline, and lost belongings may have been more important than anyone realised back then.

 

[Terryb808]

This didn't happen until two years later in fact - August 1988. In July 1986, pubs could open from 11 until 3 then had to close until 6. If SJL was not at that pub by 3 she would not have found it open until 6.

I'd still like to know who was at that pub that morning. Did they complete the handover by noon so the pub could open for lunch, or so the landlord could get away having no intention of opening?

It was easier in one way in the 80s in that you could just walk into a car accessories shop off the street and they'd make up a plate for you. Nowadays they want ID and the V5 and they record what plates they've made. So today, to fake a plate you'd have to do it yourself. Faking the letters and numbers would be easy because you could download the font, make a mask and spray paint the numbers - but I don't know where you'd get the blank plates from.

Criminals like JC even today get fake plates easily, however, they don’t have a legitimate I’d on the plates and that’s generally how the police id that they’re fake.

 

[Cherwell]

AS states that CV said 6pm specifically, not after 6pm, if so, it's interesting. Maybe. He's working from case notes and police files. CV explains 'SL had arranged to pick up her things at six o clock the day she went missing, he recalled'. It seems highly unlikely she'd flag exactly 6pm to him as she had an apt in the diary and she was meticulous about apts.

Later, this changes to a more vague after work, etc, It's a lost detail, it's overlooked and may be irrelevant, I agree. The odds are CV was confused by quite a lot, latterly especially.

Just as there are 'no coincidences' according to Wilson, maybe the devil is also (sometimes) in the detail. Johnstone said, at the time. . this is going to be a 'timings' enquiry'. Everything seemed to hinge on the times' [AS}

I think 6pm being a specific time is just a wrong assumption, or misunderstanding. As West Londoner has confirmed, the pub wasn't open all day and would have reopened at six for the evening session. It's possible that CV did say "come at six", meaning "come after six" or "don't come before six". I can't see any earthly reason why a precise appointment would need to be made. It wouldn't matter what time she turned up as long as it was during opening hours; CV or bar staff would be there and able to hand over her possessions.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

I think 6pm being a specific time is just a wrong assumption, or misunderstanding. As West Londoner has confirmed, the pub wasn't open all day and would have reopened at six for the evening session. It's possible that CV did say "come at six", meaning "come after six" or "don't come before six". I can't see any earthly reason why a precise appointment would need to be made. It wouldn't matter what time she turned up as long as it was during opening hours; CV or bar staff would be there and able to hand over her possessions.

I do take your point but he did apparently say 6pm initially & SL being so fastidious & meticulous about apts wouldn’t have said she’d come then or agree to that time as committed elsewhere. Every apt she had she was apparently at least 5 mins early.

It may well be nothing, as you say & not anything to read too much into, but a specific time was given & she apparently agreed to meet at this time. This is all from the police record.

To my mind a lot points to CV being latterly confused & muddled. Not sinister.

The fact she was on the phone to the pub moments before leaving office also wanted clearer unpacking in 86 I feel & indeed whole ‘pub’ narrative. Just to clarify her timeline where possible. They needed all help could get in this regard.

We don’t know much about the opening time of pub who who was present on that Monday in July. It wasn’t a usual day. We know when perm landlord left & stock check. DV even flags it’s poss it wasn’t open for lunch that day I believe

 

[Terryb808]

I do take your point but he did apparently say 6pm initially & SL being so fastidious & meticulous about apts wouldn’t have said she’d come then or agree to that time as committed elsewhere. Every apt she had she was apparently at least 5 mins early.

It may well be nothing, as you say & not anything to read too much into, but a specific time was given & she apparently agreed to meet at this time. This is all from the police record.

To my mind a lot points to CV being latterly confused & muddled. Not sinister.

The fact she was on the phone to the pub moments before leaving office also wanted clearer unpacking in 86 I feel & indeed whole ‘pub’ narrative. Just to clarify her timeline where possible. They needed all help could get in this regard.

We don’t know much about the opening time of pub who who was present on that Monday in July. It wasn’t a usual day. We know when perm landlord left & stock check. DV even flags it’s poss it wasn’t open for lunch that day I believe

If the Monday timeline is correct and SJL was still in the Sturgis office at 12.40pm and she was always 5 minutes early for her appointments, she was already late for the Mr Kipper 37 SR viewing.
Add this to DV’s narrative and you have further reason to feel the Mr Kipper viewing was fake.
If it was real, would you leave a potential client standing outside because you were late.
Not very professional.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

If the Monday timeline is correct and SJL was still in the Sturgis office at 12.40pm and she was always 5 minutes early for her appointments, she was already late for the Mr Kipper 37 SR viewing.
Add this to DV’s narrative and you have further reason to feel the Mr Kipper viewing was fake.
If it was real, would you leave a potential client standing outside because you were late.
Not very professional.

Interesting point & then add to that we have the witness who saw the smiling woman, alone at this stage, much fairer than photos suggested, waiting outside 37. Could this mean, if genuine viewing, ‘Kipper’ was late?

 

[Cherwell]

I do take your point but he did apparently say 6pm initially & SL being so fastidious & meticulous about apts wouldn’t have said she’d come then or agree to that time as committed elsewhere. Every apt she had she was apparently at least 5 mins early.

It may well be nothing, as you say & not anything to read too much into, but a specific time was given & she apparently agreed to meet at this time. This is all from the police record.

To my mind a lot points to CV being latterly confused & muddled. Not sinister.

The fact she was on the phone to the pub moments before leaving office also wanted clearer unpacking in 86 I feel & indeed whole ‘pub’ narrative. Just to clarify her timeline where possible. They needed all help could get in this regard.

We don’t know much about the opening time of pub who who was present on that Monday in July. It wasn’t a usual day. We know when perm landlord left & stock check. DV even flags it’s poss it wasn’t open for lunch that day I believe

We don't know what he actually said to her though, or what her response was. Only the police record, as you say, and that's unlikely to have been precise. CV might not have used the same words when interviewed, people often give the gist of a conversation rather than verbatim.

I can imagine him saying to her something like, "Call in later then, we open at six" and then saying to the police officer, "I told her to come at six". He would probably have assumed she'd call in after work on her way home. The time would have been irrelevant as long as it wasn't before six.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

If the Monday timeline is correct and SJL was still in the Sturgis office at 12.40pm and she was always 5 minutes early for her appointments, she was already late for the Mr Kipper 37 SR viewing.
Add this to DV’s narrative and you have further reason to feel the Mr Kipper viewing was fake.
If it was real, would you leave a potential client standing outside because you were late.
Not very professional.

Interesting point & then add to that we have the witness who saw the smiling woman, alone at this stage, much fairer than photos suggested, waiting outside 37. Could this mean, if genuine viewing, ‘Kipper’ was late?

We don't know what he actually said to her though, or what her response was. Only the police record, as you say, and that's unlikely to have been precise. CV might not have used the same words when interviewed, people often give the gist of a conversation rather than verbatim.

I can imagine him saying to her something like, "Call in later then, we open at six" and then saying to the police officer, "I told her to come at six". He would probably have assumed she'd call in after work on her way home. The time would have been irrelevant as long as it wasn't before six.

Yes, AS as an investigative journalist, war reporting, etc, is very good on the details generally but that’s only as good as his material. It did really jump out at me the 6pm.

He uses ‘about’ x time when he can’t be precise & ‘apparently’ e.g ‘apparently’ SL went straight home after leaving parents on the Sunday, he says. Was there a thought she went elsewhere & did this relate to what he tried to keep back from her parents later? The book outlines she used to visit certain friends, specifically on Sundays, to give facials etc. Seems innocuous.

The day itself was unusual, the perm landlady admitted the pub could have been closed due to handover & stocktake ( source: DV) & no food served at lunch. We don’t know when or even if it opened in the eve, 6pm or otherwise. Anyway, unless (much) more evidence comes to light, the pub feels like a red herring & much is down to CV being understandably muddled over time.

 

[Cherwell]

The day itself was unusual, the perm landlady admitted the pub could have been closed due to handover & stocktake ( source: DV) & no food served at lunch. We don’t know when or even if it opened in the eve, 6pm or otherwise. Anyway, unless (much) more evidence comes to light, the pub feels like a red herring & much is down to CV being understandably muddled over time.

Agreed. I think it's a reasonable assumption that the pub did reopen at 6 pm as usual. I can't see the stocktake needing more than a couple of hours.